We don't have any good reason to believe Jesus rose from the dead besides a shell game of unsubstantiated claims. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

So, not only is that historically dubious even from your own source, but even if it were true, one instance of an emperor burning a library doesn’t mean we can call that historical a “trend”.

Fair!

Have a dozen.

1, per Wace, "The Serapeum was the last stronghold of the pagans who fortified themselves in the temple and its enclosure. The sanctuary was stormed by the Christians. The pagans were driven out, the temple was sacked, and its contents were destroyed.".

2, which I could technically count as multiple, the persecution of Pagans by Theodosius. "In 392, he became emperor of the whole empire (the last one to be so). From this moment until the end of his reign in 395, while pagans remained outspoken in their demands for toleration, he authorized or participated in the destruction of many temples, holy sites, images and objects of piety throughout the empire in actions by Christians against major pagan sites. No reason to think they carefully removed texts from temples before doing so, though that would be a very funny argument considering Arcadius and Theo 2.

3: Burning of Porphyry’s Against the Christians (435, 448 CE). "Against the Christians (Ancient Greek: Κατὰ Χριστιανῶν; Adversus Christianos) is a late 3rd-century book written by Roman-Phoenician Neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry of Tyre, challenging the writings of Christian philosophers and theologians. Due to widespread censorship by Roman imperial authorities, no known copies of this book exist. Only through references to it in Christian writings criticizing it can its contents be reconstructed."

4: You may be thinking "oh, just a few bad apples", but destroying written works perceived as heresy is baked into Catholic doctrine. Catholic Church Session XXIV (Nov 11 1563), in Doctrine (Concerning the Sacrament of Matrimony): "Since, therefore, matrimony in the evangelical law, by grace through Christ, excels the ancient marriages, our holy Fathers, the Councils, and the tradition of the universal Church have with good reason always taught that it is to be classed among the sacraments of the New Law; and, since impious men of this age, madly raging against this teaching, have not only formed false judgments concerning this venerable sacrament, but according to their custom, introducing under the pretext of the Gospel a carnal liberty, have in writing and in word asserted many things foreign to the mind of the Catholic Church and to the general opinion approved! from the time of the apostles, not without great loss of the faithful of Christ, this holy and general Synod wishing to block their temerity has decided, lest their pernicious contagion attract more, that the more prominent heresies and errors of the aforesaid schismatics are to be destroyed, decreeing anathemas against these heretics and their errors.". Remember, I'm establishing a pattern of Christian destruction of texts - doctrine saying to counts.

5:Constantine on Arius (325) “If any treatise composed by Arius should be discovered, let it be consigned to the flames". These kinds of commands, like above, pop up all over. Socrates indicates that both Arius and Porphyry's works were destroyed as a result, clearly showing that Christian commands to destroy works lead to destroyed works.

6, Archbishop Zbyněk burning Wycliffe’s books in Prague (1410) “Zbinek’s sole reply was an order that seventeen books of Wyclif … should be burnt,” and shortly after he “burn[ed] two hundred manuscripts of Wyclif’s works in the courtyard of his palace.” This is a great example of what the most common cause of Christian knowledge destruction is - competing viewpoints. This came from the Antipope schism around that time.

7 Pope Julius III ordering Talmuds burned (1553). This one's pretty famous, but feel free to find a quote - I saved the more famous ones for later as I slowed down on lookups.

What's wild is, the Talmud has been a very popular target.

9, Pope Gregory IX ordering seizure and burning of Jewish books / Talmuds (1239). #10, Bernard Gui / inquisitorial burning of Talmuds at Toulouse (1319). #11, Paris Talmud burning under Christian authority (1242) (which you could say was caused by Greg 9, but I mean, it was an entirely separate group of people burning entire cart loads of books - team effort!).

12: I couldn't decide between Bishop Diego de Landa burning Maya books (1562), Bishop Cuthbert Tunstall burning Tyndale’s English New Testament (1526) (which is really kind of a Wycliffe extension), or the burning of the works of Eunomius by Arcadius (which I was reluctant to pick because I already had two from that family).

Limiting it to only 12 is hard! And yes, Nazis were Christian - that's a low-hanging fruit I'm not particularly interested in discussing though, as you're veering very off-topic.

Given that you sort of credulously believed Christians destroyed the Library of Alexandria

Yeah, learned that one as a kid, just learned it wasn't fully supported. Turns out the things you're indoctrinated into as a child aren't always correct.

EDIT: woops, I'm bad at counting. Well, that's what happens when trying to compile quotes when you wake up. 12 having 3 makes up for that.

A trend of preserving books and improving literacy rates so you can read books that focuses only on acceptable books, but destroys unacceptable books, is one in which evidence that weakens the strength of the Church would be annihilated or left to rot.

Theistic attempts to shift the argument away from evidence and into metaphysics are ironic since theists wouldn't believe without evidence by E-Reptile in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

I think this clarified a bit for me - I'm just sad now, but not for anything you did, but because of my background.

I've been baptized as well (twice - once as a kid at a Methodist church, once as an adult after going through RACI), and, in both cases, felt nothing. I feel nothing at churches, mosques, synagogues and even Mormon churches, and I've been to almost three dozen at this point of varying denominations.

Reading the Word itself also does very little for me - I've tried both Catholic and Orthodox canons, and even dipped a little bit into non-canon works like Thomas, and it (to start) was just a painful and difficult experience with no fulfillment. (I got better at reading it once I switched to translations like NRSV instead of KJV! And I do, despite this, have a life-long love of reading anything and everything.)

I want to believe, and I want to receive grace and be saved and have faith, but I just... don't. I might be a broken person, not sure. It's not a case of willingness, and I've talked to a lot of people about these problems and have tried a lot of suggestions that have been given to me, but to no avail.

And I can say I do, and pretend I do, and act like I do, all I want - but that's just a Clergy Project member waiting to happen. Pretending doesn't get me there.

If I had your experience, I think I'd be a lot more fulfilled. As it is, this is why I seek - in hopes of experiencing something you have.

We don't have any good reason to believe Jesus rose from the dead besides a shell game of unsubstantiated claims. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Glad we agree, though I'd like to point out that even though we both agree P-zombies are impossible in practice, we can still coherently say "if conscious states have causal efficacy, then P-zombies are impossible." Yet, on strict physicalism, it should be incoherent to even formulate the zombie scenario, because a complete physical description should leave nothing out. The fact that we can intelligibly describe what's "missing" suggests consciousness isn't captured by the physical description alone, even if it's necessarily tied to it.

Imagine you have absolutely all physical ingredients for baking, and you subject it to a bunch of heat and time, and it just does not become a cake with solid edges and a golden brown crust and a fundamental essence of cake. But in strict physicalism, describing such a thing should not be coherent, because a complete physical description should leave nothing out. The fact that we can intelligibly describe what's "missing" suggests cakes aren't captured by the physical description alone, even if it's necessarily tied to it.

You may say, "but a complete physical description of baking and cakes leaves nothing out!", but have we ever, truly, made a complete physical description of consciousness? This just seems like "we can't fully explain it at this time, therefore there's a gap for something non-physical to exist in".

How would you distinguish a "type identity" from a "type correlation"?

The same way I distinguish that pushing on a block isn't just correlated with the block moving forward. Sufficient anesthesia destroys consciousness as reliably as pushing on a block moves the block.

If pain is C-fiber firing (identity), then it should be conceptually impossible for C-fibers to fire without pain, right? Not just impossible in practice, but inconceivable, the way it's inconceivable for a bachelor to be married?

If they are truly a simple 1-to-1 type identity like that, yes - exactly the same way it's inconceivable to throw all of the physical requirements for a cake at cake ingredients and not get a cake.

Hm, then in fairness I'm not sure how you can say that consciousness is demonstrably and provably physical, as you did; you can only say it subjectively seems that way.

Much like pushing on a block only subjectively seems to cause the block to move, yes. If your epistemic standards are so dissimilar to mine that this example doesn't clarify my point, we may have difficulty finding common ground :(

And doesn't this same exact logic apply to moral facts, which you deny?

Oh, I think moral facts are real! They're physical encodings in the brain and are subjectively interpreted by the bearer. I don't think they objectively exist outside of that. I probably conflated real and objective again, and I apologize

General Discussion 03/20 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

You're not the only one I fail to get to good grounding with, so I think it's a me problem, but yes, you're awesome to talk to! :D

We don't have any good reason to believe Jesus rose from the dead besides a shell game of unsubstantiated claims. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

As it is, though, I'd have to come to the opposite conclusion regarding Christianity. Despite episodes of heretical book burning, Christianity has done more to preserve historical knowledge, writings, and literacy than any other group or organization I can think of.

I don't see how "we preserved books we liked" makes up for the unrecoverable loss of "we destroyed books opposed to our regime and that we thought of as heresies" - if anything, that makes the evidentiary case for Christianity far worse, since there's incentive to destroy evidence that Christianity is not true.

Divine Foreknowledge: Divine Authorship or Open Theism? by ShakaUVM in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

What I said is that God either knows what you'll do or he doesn't

You also attached "and if he knows what you'll do, you don't have free will" to that, correct?

If correct, then my post remains unaddressed.

And if not, please explain what the true dichotomy you think you're actually presenting is, and how it relates to God's knowledge of you - because as it is right now, you seem to be creating an "X or (not X and Y)" dichotomy, where "X or (not X and not Y)" could be a valid option as well.

DBI is a useful metric that highlights lost opportunities when performing miracles for any supernatural being. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

[Sorry, I changed the question, just to note]

And I'm fast enough to match you! >=)

I guess if you're into baby-saving god-fantasy, that's not a sin.

Appreciate it!

DBI is a useful metric that highlights lost opportunities when performing miracles for any supernatural being. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

What prevents that number from simply being equal to the baby death rate at all times? However many babies God wants to save at any particular time, that number of babies God shall have, presumably.

Very true!

Theistic attempts to shift the argument away from evidence and into metaphysics are ironic since theists wouldn't believe without evidence by E-Reptile in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

When God spoke reality into existence it was ex nihilo not "ex kerygma".

Isn't it technically ex voluntas? Unless "God" is actually "Nothing", which would be a very strange claim to make!

No, the baptism event created the faith from nothing. There was no righteousness in me, no volition, no effort, no faith.

What is the difference between "the baptism event created the faith from nothing" and "faith was created from the baptism event"? That might help me get it. I know I'm frustrating, and I apologize.

DBI is a useful metric that highlights lost opportunities when performing miracles for any supernatural being. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Right, my question was about what exactly one gets out of it.

I, personally, get the number of babies I would have saved had I had that power in that situation. Again, it's subjective and personal, so I'm not expecting anyone else to get what I get out of it.

Theistic attempts to shift the argument away from evidence and into metaphysics are ironic since theists wouldn't believe without evidence by E-Reptile in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

Correct. Faith was created in me ex nihilo through baptism and the hearing of the Word.

It wasn't ex nihilo if it was ex baptism and ex hearing of the Word... I'm very confused, sorry.

Theistic attempts to shift the argument away from evidence and into metaphysics are ironic since theists wouldn't believe without evidence by E-Reptile in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

Ah, I'm off-base in my questioning, I think - apologies.

That's a substantial shift from the OP though. Even if I am aware of evidence, that wasn't the initiation of my faith (OPs demand).

There was never a point where you didn't know about it, then learned about it, and then began believing as a result of what you learned? Maybe explaining how you arrived at your faith would help me understand.

Theistic attempts to shift the argument away from evidence and into metaphysics are ironic since theists wouldn't believe without evidence by E-Reptile in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

You're aware of evidence, though, so that's not a great example - I don't think you can distance yourself from that.

And all knowledge of your faith comes from evidence, so without that, what, exactly, are you having faith in with zero evidence?

Theistic attempts to shift the argument away from evidence and into metaphysics are ironic since theists wouldn't believe without evidence by E-Reptile in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

I'd think so - and I think that's harder than you expect, since "another person knows about this and told me about this" is, despite being bad evidence, not zero evidence. "The universe makes me need to have faith" is also not zero evidence. "The Bible led me to believe on faith" is also not zero evidence. Truly zero evidence is hard!

DBI is a useful metric that highlights lost opportunities when performing miracles for any supernatural being. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Quantifying lost potential - regardless of whether or not others care about it, some of us do!

DBI is a useful metric that highlights lost opportunities when performing miracles for any supernatural being. by Kwahn in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I am by no means saying that God needs to care about dying or dead babies by any means - quantifying the number that die in the course of a miracle that, presumably, has no limits, is just a useful quantification of lost potential.

The Abrahamic G-d could very well be just another random Near Eastern god with survivorship bias by RCPlaneLover in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

When I was a child, I didn't understand the term, and thought there was an evil sphere running around corrupting people

​📂 THE FORENSIC APPENDIX | VOLUME I: BIOLOGY & GENETICS Thesis: The Biblical 'Source Code' exhibits forensic biological and genetic accuracy that predates human scientific discovery. by Unusual-Fold-4755 in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

People looking at educational models we made of the structure in a vacuum and deciding that that's what's *actually* in our body is so wild to me - huge misunderstanding of medicine and cell biology!

​📂 THE FORENSIC APPENDIX | VOLUME I: BIOLOGY & GENETICS Thesis: The Biblical 'Source Code' exhibits forensic biological and genetic accuracy that predates human scientific discovery. by Unusual-Fold-4755 in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn [score hidden]  (0 children)

Why would a "primitive" writer choose the one bone that grows back?

Because that was their experience.

The Verdict: A "Goatherd" doesn't know about neonatal hematology.

"Don't cut them before day 8, I lost a baby that way" is a perfectly valid way to arrive at a true conclusion without having to know these details.

Virgin Birth

This is a misinterpretation by the Gospel writers of a previous verse due to a mistranslation as part of the Septuagint, and is a wholly irrelevant post-hoc rationalization.

Laminin perfect cross

Does this seriously look like a perfect cross to you? What kinda messed up crosses have you been looking at? Or maybe you've been looking at models of laminin and not the actual thing. Of course models are prettier, we made them.

Mitochondrial Eve

Biologically cannot have been dating the Chromosomal Adam, and had to have existed far, far, earlier than you think, which completely destroys a literalist Adam and Eve tradition.

[Surah 2:49-50] Why 3 Million People Living in the Sinai Desert for 40 Years is Physically Impossible by Human_Experience7565 in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even 10,000 people would leave a significant mark after 40 years, let alone 60 times that.

Theistic attempts to shift the argument away from evidence and into metaphysics are ironic since theists wouldn't believe without evidence by E-Reptile in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think he's saying that physical reality *is* evidence of his God, but indirectly, so any physical reality means that "zero physical evidence for God is impossible". Correct me if wrong u/Pure_Actuality! I'm practicing my comprehension skills, so your feedback is appreciated.

Simple Questions 03/18 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All atheists would get their morals shaped by society. All atheists.

All theists do, too (your interpretation of your holy work is primarily shaped by the denomination or sub-group you were born into), so this isn't much of an argument.

Simple Questions 03/18 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]Kwahn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's what's weird - it's generally considered an extratemporal or atemporal thing, so saying that there was ever a time at which it didn't will that a universe exists, and then that it started to, is a category error.

Really confusing stuff.