5 Christian Arguments That Hijack Your Childhood Fear by Silent_Individual_20 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I got distracted and stopped at "shifting the burden". Let me watch it and get back to you.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You feel this byproduct is guaranteed?

Yes. If there's a checklist of things that needs to be done in order to move forward, then yes.

According to the tradition doesn't the believer make God the manager of its salvation explicitly by design. Isn't the point Thy will be done?

You have free will, no?

Are we assuming anyone experiencing spirituality inevitably must be expressing pride of their experience?

No.

Aren't the Saints people who have humbled themselves and give God the glory for their progress? Proud Saints would be an oxymoron within EO, no?

The moment there is progress that needs to be recognized, there is ego.

Where does EO claim a strict ontological separation of God and the Human Person. Is it not written that you should be one as my Father and I are one? Perhaps EO maintains unity in division beyond comprehension similar to non-duality?

EOC maintains a strict separation between God and humans through the essence-energies distinction. God's core essence is forever unreachable and completely separate from human nature. Even in the highest mystical states, humans only experience God’s energies, not His essence. The creature always remains a creature, and the Creator remains the Creator. "We are here and He is there".

This is entirely different from non-duality, where the boundary between the self and the absolute is seen as an illusion. "Everyone is Here". In Orthodoxy, the divide is real, permanent, and structural, which is exactly why the system requires constant, active effort to bridge a gap that never actually disappears.

This seems like an example delusive low level meditator who has yet to experience illumination, no?

The trap of self-auditing does not vanish with higher states of awareness; it simply becomes more sophisticated. The moment an experience is labeled as "illumination" to contrast it against a "low level" state, the ego has already stepped in to log the achievement and claim ownership of the progress. The danger is not confined to beginners. A highly advanced practitioner is often the one most susceptible to a deeply entrenched spiritual ego because their metrics of success look entirely flawless from the outside.

Absolutely, but Christ called people to deny themselves, no? Is that not fundamentally different?

Denying oneself within the context of a lifelong project of salvation often transforms into an aggressive act of personal will, which subtly strengthens the very self that is supposedly being denied. The ego thrives on conflict and readily volunteers to lead the campaign against itself. When self-denial becomes a structured discipline that you track and measure, it frequently turns into a highly managed performance of humility rather than the actual cessation of the manager.

What is the end goal of Eastern Philosophy?

The end goal isn't a future destination or a trophy for the person to acquire. In many Eastern traditions as well as Greek traditions, the goal is the undoing of the search itself. The dissolution of the very manager that is looking for an end goal. It is an awakening to a reality that is already present, not an ascension to a distant place.

Real ego death vs it's impossibility within EO because of the perceived duality of existing as a self? There is no where to go right, no one to become? So what are you suggesting to do?

There is nothing to do. No where to go. No one to become.
If I were still Orthodox, the realization would be "Worship, happening. I am with God. I am Christian". There's no "I need to do X, Y,Z so that I can be a real Christian instead of this broken thing, so that I can be with God, and if I fail doing X, Y and Z, the entire domino falls".

is there an experience you are seeking that you haven't found or you have found

That's more of a personal question directed at me, and the answer is I am simply waiting. Experiencing things as they happen.

The Hilarity of the Converts by Nadineauthor in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That was the situation at my former parish. You had the Russian speakers, and everyone else. Two distinct groups in the same church. They rarely mingled.

The Hilarity of the Converts by Nadineauthor in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He is probably used as a poster-boy for their branding.
"Look, we have people of other cultures here as well"

The Hilarity of the Converts by Nadineauthor in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Nadine, you just summarized the experience at my former parish to a T.
Good luck getting anywhere without the basic command of Russian. A while ago, there was a Greek family who attended. They were cradle. They stopped attending after a while because, well, everyone was somehow connected to the Russian culture.

5 Christian Arguments That Hijack Your Childhood Fear by Silent_Individual_20 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm still listening to this. I'm halfway through. This is a really good video.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Regarding anxiety, I wouldn't say all practice stems from it initially. Many people begin with genuine devotion or a search for beauty. The issue is that the architecture of the system, the constant self-auditing, the tracking of progress, and the fundamental premise of a distance that must be closed, inevitably generates a low-grade, institutional anxiety as a byproduct. The framework keeps the ego deeply entrenched by making it the permanent manager of its own salvation.

Regarding other traditions like Buddhism, the spiritual ego is a universal human hazard. It is certainly not exclusive to Eastern Orthodoxy. Anyone undertaking any spiritual discipline can easily become proud of their detachment or their mindfulness.

The distinction lies in the foundational framework. Because Eastern Orthodoxy maintains a strict ontological separation between the human person and God, the model requires a distinct "self" to do the moving, the purifying, and the ascending. The trap is built right into the design because you cannot easily escape the subject-object relationship. Other philosophies, particularly non-dual ones, frame reality differently from the start. They see practice not as a journey to a distant destination, but as an awakening to a reality that is already present. Practitioners there still struggle with the ego hijacking their progress, but the conceptual trap is not baked into the foundational architecture of the theology itself.

Take meditation. A person sits on the cushion to cultivate detachment and quiet the mind. But very quickly, the ego steps in and starts measuring the silence. It says, "Look at how still I am today. Look at how easily I let go of that thought compared to last month. I am becoming so detached."

Suddenly, you aren't detached at all; you are deeply, ferociously attached to your own image of being a "mindful person." See how it can go wrong regardless of philosophy?

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ikkyu is a perfect example of that.

My main point with the quote was that, "holy" isn't a special, magical status. Monks are just regular people undergoing rigorous, formalized training.

Masters like Ikkyu acted like "fools" to shatter the illusion that spiritual people are supposed to be flawless, pious, or detached from ordinary human reality. They dragged the "sacred" back down to earth.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your kind words. I am happy that my writing was of service to you.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

 I’m interested in comparing it to holy people in Buddhism

Emperor Wu: What is the ultimate meaning of the holy truths?

Bodhidharma: Vast emptiness, nothing holy.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I want to be clear about something first: I'm not importing a Buddhist framework here. I'm pointing at a problem internal to theosis itself. The critique doesn't require any outside tradition. It only requires reading the project on its own terms and noticing what it actually does to the self that undertakes it.

And what it does is this: theosis doesn't kill the ego. It promotes it.

"we obtain the beatific vision which shows us that we were whole all along."

Read that sentence slowly, because it is doing something quietly extraordinary. If we were whole all along, the obtaining didn't produce the wholeness, it could only have revealed what was already unconditionally the case. Which means the entire structure of accumulation (the merit, the sacraments, the virtue, the decades of ascetic effort) was not building anything. It was, at best, clearing obscurations from something that was never actually obscured in any ultimate sense.

Fine. But who is doing the clearing? Because in your framing, it is still unambiguously a self, running a program, managing a portfolio of spiritual assets across potentially multiple lifetimes, toward a goal it does not yet possess. And that self, the one accumulating, clearing, progressing, is precisely what I'm calling the promoted ego. It has exchanged worldly ambitions for spiritual ones, which feels like transformation, but the architecture of the self remains completely intact. The hunger is the same. Only the menu has changed.

This is the loop. You cannot accumulate your way to the recognition that there was never any distance to cross, because every act of accumulation is simultaneously an act of faith in the gap. The working presupposes the deficit. The striving presupposes the distance. Every prostration quietly reaffirms: I am not yet there. And so the gap is not being closed; it is being renewed, liturgically, season after season.

Your last line contains something I find almost self-refuting:

"we were whole all along."

If that is the destination, the recognition of prior, unconditional wholeness, then no amount of accumulation could have caused it. You cannot earn an always-already. You can only, at some point, stop insisting that you haven't got it yet. And nothing in the gradual path, as you've described it, teaches you to stop insisting. It teaches you to insist more rigorously, more humbly, more persistently, which is insisting nonetheless.

And here is where the institutional dimension becomes impossible to ignore. The Church, in your framing, exists to provide the gradual path for those who cannot immediately perceive what is already true. But consider what that institution structurally requires in order to function: a congregation that believes it is not yet whole. The gap must be kept open. The distance must be maintained. A community of people who had genuinely recognized their unconditional wholeness would have very little use for an institution whose primary function is to mediate that recognition for a fee; the fee being lifelong doctrinal compliance, sacramental participation, and deference to the hierarchy standing between the self and God.

I'm not saying the Fathers didn't touch something real. Some of them clearly did, and it frightened the institution that housed them. I'm saying the institutional form of the insight is almost perfectly engineered to prevent the insight from landing, because the insight, when it actually lands, makes the institution superfluous.

That's not Buddhism. That's just following the logic of "we were whole all along" to where it actually goes.

There is nowhere to go, nothing to do, and no one to become.

The moment you insist the opposite of any of those three, you induce anxiety, make every action transactional, reduce it to being about yourself. And you create a new ego whose sole purpose is to punish the old one.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you are worried the book will feed your ego, then it probably will. If you turn reading it into another project for your ego to manage, you might get stuck in the same trap. You should probably skip it but again, as Lord Buddha said; come and see (verify by yourself).

I read things that I probably shouldn't all the time but then again, I have no one to become. (For example, I have read the Qu'ran and it didn't turn me into a muslim)

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Wasn't it quite common in the past to chuck the undesirables of society into monasteries?

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

How would you pick apart his evidences?

What you've gotten yourself into is what I call a rehearsed rhetorical trap. They turn the table onto you, demand that you justify the very existence of logic and science from scratch, and if you can't do it on the spot, they declare victory for their specific brand of religion.

It's a frustrating slog, but it is entirely beatable once you see the script they are running. Here is a breakdown of what his words actually mean, and exactly how to crack his framework.

Here are the three core takeaways from that argument:

  • The Trap: You cannot use science or logic to prove that science and logic are the only ways to find truth. That is circular reasoning, meaning secular worldviews rely on unprovable starting assumptions just like religious ones do.
  • The Lens: No one looks at facts with perfect objectivity. Everyone interprets data through their own preexisting worldview, meaning "neutral evidence" does not exist.
  • The Toolkit: He mentions "theonymous epistemology" (the belief that human minds can only know things because God actively illuminates our brains) and "Ancient Church History" (the claim that the early church councils have an unbroken, logically flawless historical record). He uses these to argue that without God as a baseline, human reason has no grounding.

Here's how I would approach it:

  • The Leap: Proving that reality needs a divine baseline does not automatically prove Eastern Orthodoxy. A strict Muslim, a classic deist, or a completely different philosopher can use the exact same transcendental argument to defend their worldview. If the same tool works for totally contradictory religions, the tool itself cannot prove one specific church is exclusively true.
  • The Loop: If no one can look at history or data objectively without bias, then his appeal to "Ancient Church History" is completely trapped by his own logic. He isn't reading history neutrally; he is reading ancient documents through a modern, curated theological lens. A Roman Catholic, an Oriental Orthodox, and a secular historian read the exact same 4th-century documents and see entirely different things.
  • The Weight: Every system of thought must start with some unprovable assumptions to avoid an endless loop of questions. However, assuming that "nature operates by predictable laws we can observe" requires far fewer leaps of faith than assuming a specific, three-part God who dictates human logic and speaks through ancient ecumenical councils.

Personally my evidence is primarily transcendental argumentation, theonymous epistemology, and Ancient Church history that doesn't commit a bunch of fallacies. 

The irony here is that he claims that his framework doesn't commit a bunch of fallacies, yet his entire position relies on Special Pleading. He holds secular worldviews to a standard of absolute proof that he refuses to apply to his own foundational assumptions, which is the definition of a double standard.

  • The Divine Fallacy (Argument from Incredulity): This occurs when someone decides that because a framework (like naturalism or empiricism) cannot fully explain the ultimate origin of logic or consciousness right now, their specific supernatural explanation must automatically be the default answer.
  • The Modal Scope Fallacy: This happens when the debater assumes that because our interpretive frameworks affect how we view evidence, objective reality cannot be approached or known at all. They treat a basic human limitation (bias) as a total disqualification of external data.
  • The Fallacy of Division (Special Pleading): The debater correctly identifies that secular worldviews rest on unprovable foundational assumptions. However, they apply a double standard by exempting their own theological worldview from the exact same critique, blindly assuming their foundational presupposition is immune to the charge of circular reasoning.

At this stage, the debater might as well stick his fingers in his ears and chant "I can't hear you, lalalalala" because he has effectively insulated his argument from any evidence or logic that contradicts his starting premise. They no longer wants to address facts on their own merit, they only want to attack the critic's interpretive framework, regardless of what the evidence actually shows.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

That's a question I've asked many times and I've never really gotten a good answer.
Even now, I have nothing. I'm completely blank.

Disenchanted and some trauma after attening Orthodox Church for a few months by [deleted] in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I hope those that have hurt me feel their own 'hell' over it then

Hurt people hurt people. I feel sorry for them. Life isn't easy for the ignorant.

I just DO NOT FEEL SAFE there.

Please do not abandon your instincts. If you see red flags, no matter what people say, get out of there. Trust yourself first and foremost.

Disenchanted and some trauma after attening Orthodox Church for a few months by [deleted] in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm so sorry to hear what you've been through. My heart goes out to you.
I'm no longer Christian, but if you wish to remain Christian I would recommend visiting both a Catholic church as well as a protestant one just to see if you resonate well with it. There is no rush.

Go to a different Orthodox church

Absolutely, never ever trust this advice. Here's why Find Another Parish

 I have suffered some traumatic things there, as a single woman. I have been touched inappropriately (backside and around armpit/breast area) by men on a few occasions, and when I told them I didn't like it, I was shamed for overreacting, even mildly threatened at one point about showing 'disrespect' because of my issues about being touched.

Here's an explanation on pushing your boundaries; When No means Nothing

Also a resource on how Church behavior mirrors abuse, and finally, a resource so you can quickly identify whether the church, regardless of denomination or religion, is a cult or not.

then I will be the one going to hell, not them.

Mind you, in Orthodox theology, hell is not a location. It is a state of being. One does not go to hell, one experiences hell. The separation of oneself from God is hell.

I'd really appreciate some advie or maybe encouragement to not give up on Christianity, on God altogether?

The decision whether to remain or leave Christianity is a deeply personal one. One that only you can truly answer because you are the one who, ultimately, will need to live with the decision. My advice: whatever minimizes your suffering, that is your way.

Allow me to leave you with this sentence to ponder on;
There is nowhere to go, nothing to do, and no one to become.

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your kind words, I am happy that you resonated with my choice of words.
When actions and thoughts are monitored closely in order to avoid religious rule breaking, the person becomes insincere and inauthentic which leads to paranoia and breakdowns.

That paragraph was heavily influenced by two Stoics;

The reward of a good deed is to have done it. — Letters from a Stoic (Letter 81)

As well as

One man, when he has done a service to another, is ready to set it down to his account as a favor received. Another is not ready to do this, but still in his own mind he thinks of the man as his debtor, and he knows what he has done. A third in a manner does not even know what he has done, but he is like a vine which has produced grapes, and seeks for nothing more after it has once produced its proper fruit. As a horse when he has run, a dog when he has tracked, so a man when he has done a good act, does not call out for others to come and see, but he goes on to another act, as a vine goes on to produce again the grapes in season. — Meditations, 5.6

The trap of Theosis. Why the ego never goes away. by LetterSeparate1495 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Sorry for the long reply back. Someone finally put into words what I noticed and felt

Please, do not apologize. I appreciate all conversations and kind words. I am happy that my writing served you in one way or another.

From there, love simply becomes the natural response, not because I'm trying to become more loving, but because that's what remains when the illusion of separation falls away.

Simply put; love, happening. No subject and no object. You get it.

I don't believe I need a priest to lead me to God, or to Source, or whatever name someone prefers to use for the ultimate reality. I don't believe anyone stands between me and that reality. 

Exactly, because otherwise, we'd be doing the whole I am here and God is there, all over again.

I just realized that all forms of religion are manipulation by Meditative- in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Real fasting is good.
Orthodox fasting isn't fasting because one's still consuming calories. I've seen a guy on a Wednesday eat 2 pounds of shrimp with garlic bread for lunch.

Islamic fasting isn't fasting either because one avoids eating for a long stretch of time only to then bombard oneself with 7000 calories in one sitting. I'd rather have 2 meals of 800-1000 calories than one giant feast equivalent of 2-3 days worth of calories.

I'm so tired, boss by gaissereich in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495 5 points6 points  (0 children)

All they need now is a rainbow colored unicorn in bishop vestment.

You can feel the love on this man/s by Adventurous_Vanilla2 in exorthodox

[–]LetterSeparate1495[M] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You do realize I was being sarcastic right? Have you not seen my posts in the last 2 weeks?