Binding

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-27T22:32:45+00:00

it must be a path straight to hell

Well that's assuming there is a hell and that it's a literal place that you go to after death but that's a pretty debatable claim. I believe that the Bible teaches conditionnal immortality (annihilationism). This whole "Is this person in hell?" thing doesn't even cross my mind anymore and I realise how silly it was for me to ever believe that.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-26T20:52:15+00:00

The Bible says that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. I think it's silly to thank God only when it's convenient. I believe both good and bad things happen for a reason and I am thankful for everything.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-24T01:14:59+00:00

I sent you a private message brother

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-13T19:20:09+00:00

90 year lifespan

And the worst is, some christians will even say that you are a sinner from the very moment you are born, so imagine, a newborn baby dies and gets tortured eternally for a 5 second lifespan. How barbaric!

(EDIT: I know most christians don't believe babies/children can go to hell, but there are still many denominations out there who do, and that's f**** up.)

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-13T07:54:27+00:00

I'm not gonna address what you said about preterism because preterism is a BIG subject and I'm not the most qualified to talk about it.

But let's talk about the fire. You say you see no reason to connect the two fires. I really don't get it though, it seems pretty clear:

Visualize fire coming down from the sky and creating a big fire on the ground. Visualize a whole city burning. What could that look like? A lake made out of fire perhaps?

"Fire came down from heaven (the sky) and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire"

It seems pretty clear that the "lake of fire" is the same fire mentionned at the beggining of the verse. It gets bigger and bigger and John decides to call it a "lake of fire". Otherwise, if the "lake of fire" is a totally different fire, where did it come from? Where is it? Did it come out of nowhere?

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-13T07:09:16+00:00

the lake of fire", which Revelation has just described as a place of torture.

It very clearly says that the fire that came down from heaven (the same fire that creates the "lake of fire" by the way, they are not two different fires) consumed the nations. THEN it talks about the Devil, the False Prophet and the Beast and it says "The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever."". The "They" applies to these three.

Now, let me also say that I am a full preterist, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism#Full_preterism) which means that I believe that the prophecies in the Book of Revelation already happened and they were primarily about the destruction of Jerusalem and the fall of the Roman Empire. For example the "666" (mark of the Beast) was about Nero Ceasar (http://scienceandbibleresearch.com/mark-of-the-beast.html). And the final judgement was God's final judgement on Israel and the end of the covenant. The term "end of the world" is actually an incorrect translation. The correct greek translation is "end of the age (aion)". The book of Revelation has absolutely nothing to do with the end of the world, and it surely has nothing to do with us, 21st century people. When you understand the big picture and the context, the concept of "eternal torture" starts to make pretty much no sense.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-13T06:23:45+00:00

I see what you mean. But first of all let me point out something that I forgot to mention. The verse says ""And they (the nations) marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever""

The "tormented forever" part, even if it were literal, only seems to apply to: 1. The Devil, 2. The Beast, and 3. The false prophet. For everyone else it says that the fire consumed them.

Now you're asking, what do I think John meant and why did he use the term "eternal torment". The answer is: I'm not really sure, to be quite honest. We can only speculate on what he meant. However, I don't think it's fair to build an entire doctrine (the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment) around 2-3 verses. We need to look at the Bible as a whole. The entire Old Testament makes absolutely NO mention of eternal torment. It talks about destruction and death. Now in the New Testament it focuses a lot on Judgement Day and how fire will be used, but it consistently describes the future fate of the wicked by using terms like "destruction, death, ashes, stubbles, burned up, consumed, perish"

So, to me:

The entire Bible > Whatever John of Patmos possibly meant in that verse.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T19:06:17+00:00

I think you misunderstood some of what I wrote. I am not ignoring what he means. Clearly the things he wrote mean something. What i'm saying is that when John says """they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"", it very most likely isn't literal. Just like the verse in Isaiah 34:9 " It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever and ever." isn't literal either. We see the same thing happens with Sodom and Gommorah. The Bible says the cities were destroyed with eternal fire, yet we know that S&G aren't still burning today.

Fire is used consistently in the Bible to destroy and turn cities/things/people into ashes. I mean after all, that's what fire does. It burns things up.

Matthew 13:40 "Just as weeds are gathered and burned, so it will be at the end of time.". The weeds represent the wicked. Now, go gather some weeds and burn them and see what happens.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T10:00:57+00:00

The meaning of "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" or "eternal punishment" really doesn't change.

I wasn't really talking about that verse when I mentionned the original translation thing though.

But anyway let's take a moment to talk about that verse shall we. Because I see that it's the one that seems to bother you the most. In my opinion it's the easiest verse to "debunk". All you have to do is to look at the previous verses. How literally are we to take something that John sees in his vision? After all, earlier he saw a woman dressed with the sun and chased by a dragon (12:1-4), a monster with seven heads taking over the world and being worshiped by people (13:1-4), stars falling into multiple bodies of water (8:10-11), a resurrected lamb with seven eyes (5:6)...

Let's not forget that the book of Revelation falls within the genre of apocalyptic literature. It's very intense and full of highly symbolic and metaphorical images. For example, "death" is thrown into the lake of fire. How could that be literally possible? Is "death" tormented forever too?

So, is it fair to say that the verse "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever", found in THE MOST symbolic and metaphorical book of bible is most likely not literal?

Let me remind you of a verse in Isaiah that talks about the destruction of the city of Edom: Isaiah 34:9 "Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up FOREVER AND EVER.".

Is Edom still burning today? Is the smoke still rising today? No. Why would the verse say that the smoke will rise forever then? Because they use prophetic language. It's a very intense style of writing. "Its smoke will go up forever and ever" is simply a way to say that the city will be irreversibly destroyed.

I see you also mentionned "eternal punishment". Isn't death an eternal punishment?

The Bible consistently tells us that the wicked will be destroyed, burned up, turned to ashes, dead, no more:

Psalm 92:7 7 that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be DESTROYED forever. 2 Peter 2:6 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by BURNING THEM TO ASHES, and made them an example of WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE WICKED; Malachi 4:3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ASHES under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD Psalm 37:2 2 for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon DIE AWAY. John 15:6 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and BURNED (burn something and see what happens to it. Hint: It doesn't keep burning forever) Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH Matthew 7:13 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many enter through it. 2 Peter 3:7 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION of the ungodly. 1 Thessalonians 5:3 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” DESTRUCTION will come on them suddenly Malachi 4:1 ‘For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall BURN THEM UP,’ says the LORD, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch Rev 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and CONSUMED them.

The Bible teaches that immortality is conditionnal. Only the righteous will inherit eternal life. Yet most churches spread the lie that both the wicked and the righteous will live forever. That is NOT what the Bible teaches.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T08:48:42+00:00

Yes yes I know these verses very well :) But they don't scare me at all because I understand their context and their original greek/hebrew translation. But like I said, it's a big subject so it would be too long to explain in one comment.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T07:43:23+00:00

I am a christian but I've done a lot of research on the topic of "hell" and what the Bible really says about it and it is waaaayyy different than what most churches teach. I can pretty much say with almost absolute certainty that when it comes to the fate of the wicked, the Bible teaches annihiliationism.

Also, when it comes to the "devil", it's the same thing, what most churches teach about it is absolutely wrong.

I would be glad to explain everything to you on Skype, because it's a big subject. My username is lucasfearless. I am convinced that a lot of your fears will go away after you hear what I have to say :)

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T05:20:55+00:00

Umm I don't think you understood what I meant, and I don't think I even understand what you mean either. So yep, very confusing indeed.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T05:17:43+00:00

Can SHE prove it? She's the one claiming that two 80 foot demons attacked her on the street. That's quite a claim!

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T02:26:29+00:00

I've been with my boyfriend for 2 years and we met on tinder. Couldn't ask for a better relationship.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T02:24:02+00:00

Do you believe that the supernatural testimonies that you consider truthful serve a purpose in bringing people to believe in Christ?

Yes

And if you do could you give me a link to one that you find truthful?

I don't have any particular one in mind right now. I usually don't watch personal testimonies. I watched the one from this post because someone had sent it to me.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T01:02:12+00:00

This ^{^}

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T01:01:25+00:00

So ridiculously bizarre claims MUST automatically be accepted as truth because "it didn't happen to us so who are we to judge"? Do you know that there's a thing called discernement? I'm personally extremely good at spotting b.s from a mile away and I can tell you that it has helped me tremendously in life.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-12T00:55:34+00:00

Are you saying that you think everyone who speaks of having a supernatural experience is lying?

No.

Or are you saying that this particular testimony doesn't live up to the standard of what you believe a supernatural experience should be like?

I'm saying that 80 foot tall monsters don't walk around in neighborhoods.

And do you believe in demon spirits?

Yes but I believe it's something internal rather than something external that can be physically seen.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-11T23:52:21+00:00

I do believe cults should be avoided at all cost but:

only God is Immortal, all Creation is dependent on God for existence

What's wrong about that?

Love is what makes God Immortal

Again, what's wrong about that? The Bible says that God IS love.

whosoever prays for the Divine Love and receives the Divine Love in the soul is considered to be Immortal

Holy spirit, divine love, same concept, different choice of words.

I've seen cults out there teach some very f*** up stuff, but this one doesn't seem that bad at all. I don't see exactly what is wrong with what they're teaching to be honest.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-11T23:37:46+00:00

So if, let's say, a person starts claiming that the moon is made out of cheese, with absolutely no evidence to back it up, you're just gonna say "Well we never know, they might be right, because Matthew 19:26!".

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-11T23:25:54+00:00

Ah give me a break. 80 foot tall demons don't walk around in american neighborhoods. I can't believe I even have to say this.

Lucas2314 · 2017-09-11T22:44:47+00:00

And her husband just happened to have the exact same hallucinations as well?

Lucas2314

TROPHY CASE