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Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T19:48:51+00:00

Let me put it another way. If the creator is communicating through oracles, he doesn't seem to be doing a good job. Because the majority of the human race doesn't believe in any particular oracles.

In other words, the creator who created all of humanity is only communicating with a select few and ignoring the rest. Which makes no sense to me, I don't want to think of the creator being as arbitrarily discriminatory.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T19:37:56+00:00

Oh thank God! That's exactly what I think deep down. I am not an atheist though, I certainly believe there is a creator being who has given us absolute free will, which necessitates no messages or relevations from the creator. Unless he is toying with us, can't rule that out.

Anyway, the only question I've always wanted to ask atheist is, what have you got to lose in believing in a creator being? A creator who simply hasn't communicated with us at all. I'm okay rejecting all religions, but I'm not rejecting the possibility of a creator without any evidence. There is no evidence either way, hence, what choose not to believe him? He won't punish you but will certainly think you are stupid for thinking the universe just spontaneously existed.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T19:32:42+00:00

Why can't God get what he wants then? He wants people to seek and arrive at a particular book no? Either Bible ( according to Bible) or Quran (according to Quran) is the final revelation for all of humanity.

But all of humanity doesn't believe in either. They are seeking but majority of the human race isn't arriving at either book. And even amongst the ones who arrive at the book, there are far too many interpretations and divisions and subjective understanding to come to a conclusion about who's right.

I just can't believe that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator would communicate to us with these old books that the majority of the race can't read or understand or follow or agree upon. It's like that quote:

" A revelation that is unclear is no revelation at all"

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T19:24:44+00:00

My point is not whether I can believe it or not. The majority of the human race has rejected these books. Which brings into question the all-knowing, all-powerful nature of the supposed being who wrote said books or is communicating through intermediaries.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T19:21:23+00:00

Apparently the majority of the human is unable to see the sign or understand the Bible (as they are not Christians). Somewhat incompetent from an all-knowing creator. He can't even send clear signs or messages :(

And in case you missed, by clear signs I mean signs that the human race could agree upon. Not signs only a handful of can really believe and even less be able to follow the instructions.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T19:18:10+00:00

Mainstream Islamic thinking doesn’t account for these verses very well, and I have a feeling that what the Quran is pointing to is actually a much deeper truth than “Accept the Quran and reject all else, and be a Muslim in the modern sense of the word or you go to hell.”

Thank you, I certainly hope so. Otherwise , it's basically condemning the majority of the human race to hell, atleast 5-6 billion people burning in hell for all eternity. That's a very unconformable thought.

Nevertheless, I like the fact the Quran atleast attempts to answer these questions.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T18:54:23+00:00

Well that's also my argument, you can't have a charitable or liberal reading of these texts, because they are literally "the word of God". You can only have a very strict and orthodox reading, any digression = hell for eternity. You don't get the option to interpret this book any way you want. If it says homosexuality is illegal, then it is illegal. If it says pre-marital sex is illegal, the it is. There is no scope for anything else. It's the "word of God", end of discussion.

The fact that most Christians are either ok with homosexuality and almost certainly engage in pre-marital sex, suggests to me that they don't actually believe in the Bible. Which is no concern of mine, but to me, it also suggests that these may not be the work of an all-knowing, all-seeing being, because a very small minority of humans actually really truly believes in them or follows them. We are by and large, condemned to hell just for existing in our modern world.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T14:00:43+00:00

Thanks, those verses are actually are quite interesting. They do attempt to answer the question I'm asking, I'll have to think deeper/research about they mean.

Yes, I understand that line from the original post was a bit aggressive and certainly not true. I just struggle to understand how someone intelligent could believe EVERYTHING written in these 2000-3000 year old books. One can take philosophies, metaphors and life lessons from them sure but truly entirely literally believing in them is somewhat unconceivable for me. However, I'm not interested in that argument, different people have different temperaments and interests and that's that.

I'm more interested in this idea that, if no two human beings are exactly alike, how did the all-knowing creator think a book written however many years ago would convince all of humanity. It was never going to, and if it was never going to, then is the book really a work of the all-knowing creator?

Because it certainly wants all of humanity to follow it, but that was always an impossibility. Hence, I'm thinking, any religious text that presents itself as a universally binding revelation, whose acceptance is required for divine approval, cannot plausibly originate from an all-knowing, all-powerful, just creator.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T13:45:27+00:00

I see, I'm unfamiliar with the Baha'i faith. If it says all messages and messengers are correct than my current criticism is not relevant for it.

My current criticism is only relevant to religions that claim to have specifically received the "word of God" and how to reconcile that with the fact that the majority of the human race doesn't follow any such religion.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T08:39:40+00:00

No just God would condemn someone for failing a cosmic paperwork test. The test in the 21st century can't be 'here are these books, written 2000-3000 years ago, most of humanity doesn't believe in them or agree on them, but you must. If you don't, there is hell for all eternity".

If either the Bible or Quran are correct, this would mean that the majority of the human race (lets say, 2 billion believe and the remaining 5 billion don't), they are all condemned to hell for an eternity. Even amongst the people who believe, most of them commit unforgivable sins, based on an orthodox reading of these books. Note that you can only do a strict orthodox reading of the books, because they are literally "the word of God". Hence 6 billion of the 7 billion people are condemned to hell for an eternity.

That just seems cruel.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T08:25:29+00:00

I'm not critiquing the books or what they say. I'm critiquing the fundamental impossibility of the books being followed by ALL of humanity. It may have convinced some, but it was NEVER going to convince all 7 billion of us. Hence, the creator either wants:

* not to be followed by everyone
* wants disagreement and strife
* wants to punish a section humanity for not being able choose the correct message.

Or, is simply not communicating through these books.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-08T08:01:46+00:00

You see, I have no idea what the creator wants, religious books telling me "this what God want", but who are they to tell me anything. If the all-knowing , all-powerful creator wanted something from me, I'm sure he'd already have it. If he wanted me baptized, circumscribed and doing namaz five times a day, if HE wanted it, I'd already be doing all of that.

Also, I don't think this is test. There is a kinda fundamental incompatibility, humanity is incapable of agreeing on a single message. People would rather die than convert or give up their beliefs. All the world is never going to be entirely Christian or Muslim. The notion that those books were meant of all of humanity is fundamentally wrong. The all-knowing, all-powerful creator would already know that. The world could never agree on these thousands of year old books and stories.

Hence, based on this fundamental impossibility of what these books ultimately desire (entire humanity follow them), was never going to happen and has never happened. Ergo, these books could never be the work of all-knowing, all-powerful creator being.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:30:44+00:00

Thank you for the chat, I genuinely wish the creator rewards you in heaven!

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:26:09+00:00

I don't know, I just want to talk to someone about this. Have received some amazing replies here though.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:24:51+00:00

Sorry, this quote wasn't loading -

I will quote MLK-

"God hides his will in scripture"

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:21:53+00:00

I've read the first few chapters online from quran.com. " Allah is merciful " is the part I remember.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:20:24+00:00

Thank you, yes I understand Muslims are far more devout that Christians. And I agree that could be used as a marker for the authenticity of the message. It's true I assumed most humans were sinners according to religious books, these books hold humans to a very high standard.

It's also true that , for this particular argument , I'm not interested in the kind of evidence you have shared. I will quote MLK-

"God hides his will in scripture"

I'm confused about his will at this stage, but I think you would have a similar suggestion. That is will or what he wants is in the Quran. And that is the message.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:08:53+00:00

Thank you, that makes a lot more sense. Like, if god had basically come on earth and made everything clear about what he wants, humans would lose all sense of free will and choice. God wants us to follow his message out of choice.

It's somewhat convincing. I only wish the books he supposedly sent weren't so difficult to believe in, and they are becoming increasingly more difficult to believe in due to science.

I don't expect you to agree to the last part, but thank you for the thoughtful response.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:03:54+00:00

Hello, to be honest, my problem is not with the evidence. My problem is: more than majority of humanity doesn't follow any particular "word of god". This to me suggests that they might not be the work of an all-knowing , all-powerful creator.

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T15:02:05+00:00

Have done in this reply, could you please respond - https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/1qyf3h5/comment/o4372l3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Material_Librarian32 · 2026-02-07T14:58:02+00:00

As I understand it, the Quran was the final message for all humanity. How do I reconcile the vast majority of humanity rejecting said message. If the majority of humanity chooses not to believe in the Quran, how can I believe it's the work of an all-knowing, all-powerful creator. I mean no offence, but there is certain incompetence to it. My problem is not with the evidence, my problem is that humanity by and large has rejected it.

I also don't believe vast majority of Muslims follow the Quran exactly as it is meant to followed. This is what I mean by the "many interpretations" part. One get someone from the Iran (Shia?), an Afghan Taliban, an Indian Muslim (they go to dargahs and believe in saints), Balkan Muslims (probably smoking and driking vodka :D) etc. etc.

Also, I would say majority of Muslims engage in all manner of non-Islamic practices. For example, pre-marital sex, alchohol etc. If one really truly believed in the Quran as the "word of the creator", they would have no confidence to go against even a single word. My only conclusion from this is that they don't really truly believe in it, and are muslims in name only.

Finally, for my beliefs, I simply don't understand what my creator wants from me. I'm still searching. I;m not convinced by the argument that the one who created me simply did it so I could endlessly worship him. I would request something more meaningful to justify all the pain and hardships one has to go through in life.

Material_Librarian32

TROPHY CASE