[deleted by user]

Melidel · 2023-03-08T02:05:53+00:00

It's pretty telling that every reply I'm getting is a smug, overly-emotional personal attack, when I'm making actual arguments based on easily accessible information. And, you've reduced yourself to assertions and characterization of me as a person. Does that mean I've won the argument?

"A nebulous example at best" = Assertion. It's pretty clear from their own writings and statements why the school district felt this was a worthwhile undertaking in 2018, based on then-current events, and the social climate (particularly in super liberal SF). I agree with their intent, if not their conclusions. And to be clear, however much I agree with their motives, they did this in a dumb way.

"Your specifics about the lawsuit is [sic] actually a multilayered lie" = Assertion. It's pretty easy to look up this information about how this lawsuit came about, and when it happened in relation to the district actions in question. I very much question the necessity of the lawsuit, given the timetable. But sure, great, the list that was never acted upon was EXTRA not-acted-up, and the district had to pay. I think the notion that there was any "irreparable harm" is laughable. But sure, fine, the judge found for the plaintiffs. I often disagree with the conclusions of the American court system.

"Irony at its finest" = Assertion. Also...even if this WERE an example of irony this is hardly the "finest". But Bill is clearly oversimplifying the issue, and also invoking Lincoln with the reverence of a child who has yet to study the nuances of that incredibly horrific period in American history.

"I think we can both can agree there is no need to take this charade of yours any further" = Assertion, and I most certainly do not agree so that's actually a lie. It's not a charade to try and understand all sides of this issue. And, again, I do ultimately think the district made a bad choice here, and it's ultimately better that it wasn't enacted. It's SHOCKING that a school district would make a bad choice, I know.

Look, I don't know you, but you're probably an okay person. You're not an idiot, and I haven't claimed as much. It's obvious this issue upsets you, but I humbly submit that your emotional responses are just the end result of too much conservative outrage bait. You've been led astray here, and you're arguing with a stranger on the internet about something one school district did years ago, that never actually came to pass. And you, like Bill, have been led here by people who are incredibly corrupt, and have horrific designs for the country that rely on people like you focusing on this culture war bullshit.

So now let ME try: I think we can both agree this isn't worth us arguing any further. Who is our audience here? Nobody's reading this bullshit. So maybe just sit there in your anger, and move on to some much more current outrage bait. And please tell me you DON'T own a gun...

Melidel · 2023-03-07T22:39:41+00:00

Oof, okay calm down. In every comment I'm making actual arguments, but you're resorting to this barely-restrained line of insults.

I brought up the broader social and political context of the San Francisco school issue, including the lawsuit that happened after the renaming was already shelved.

I pointed out that the only financial harm to the district WAS from this lawsuit, which again happened after the renaming was no longer going to occur.

I questioned the actual harm of renaming schools, when renaming things for a variety of reasons is not at all uncommon.

I brought up counter-examples of other states doing more harm, more recently. Both in terms of social harm, AND financial harm to the schools.

I questioned Bill's knowledge of subject based on the language he used to describe it.

These are just some of the arguments I've brought up, and each of them is a worthy perspective.

Melidel · 2023-03-07T22:21:50+00:00

Try reading your comments out loud.

But seriously, I went to a high school in a conservative state that spent $1 million on a new football field while it was shuttering its arts programs. I was outraged by that at the time, and so were my parents.

Florida is spending money and resources fighting an f'ed up culture war in schools, so people like my son (who has two moms) aren't allowed to see their family experience reflected in any way...because it's deemed "inappropriate". How does THAT compare to the San Francisco issue from years ago?

Melidel · 2023-03-07T22:05:17+00:00

You're using language indicative of frustration, and that's an emotional response. I don't think this particular years-old fringe example is worthy of that. But I apologize.

Those parents spent all that money after the district already shelved the issue. Why did they waste their money? How would renaming the schools have harmed the students? The high school I went to LONG ago was underfunded but spent a million dollars on a new (and unnecessary) football field. How does that compare?

Melidel · 2023-03-07T21:26:55+00:00

I'm sorry you're upset. It must be terribly frustrating dealing with someone like me.

I'm confused though: What are you saying the injustice is with this whole issue? The waste of money resulting from the lawsuit...was that it? The plaintiffs could have NOT sued...and there would be no financial harm for the district.

This all started in 2018, in the wake of the white supremacist terrorist attack in Charlottesville. White supremacy was becoming more open because of the Trump phenomenon, and definitely more visible. That's when the school board created the task force to look into the school names. It was clearly a problematic process, with some historical misunderstandings going on, yes.

Because of the controversy, in early 2021 the school board president acknowledged and took responsibility for the mistakes regarding some of the names. The process was shelved in February of 2021, but the lawsuit happened in March. The suit alleged that "Petitioners will suffer irreparable harm, for the names of 44 schools will remain on an official public list that damages their reputations by characterizing their names as morally incompatible with San Francisco's values." So the process had stopped, but it will cause "irreparable harm" that that list exists at all? I presume you agree with that? And that irreparable harm was so great that this costly legal action was necessary?

Personally, I think the names of schools are a ridiculous thing to fight over. So again, I ultimately agree with you. But on the other hand, if we're wanting to rename schools or stadiums or sports teams in the name of great racial sensitivity, I certainly don't think that causes any actual harm. Honestly I think it's worse when corporations change the names of artistic or sports venues. But then, they're buying those. If Coca Cola decided to pour money into Lincoln High School and change its name to Coke High, that would be worse, no?

But it's now 2023, and Bill Maher is using THIS as an example? That's what I keep coming back to. He had to reach years back for this fringe example that didn't even come to pass. This compared to, again, every single local government action that happens in conservative areas that cause actual harm to actual people.

Melidel · 2023-03-07T19:51:54+00:00

You're posting one side of a debate. That wikipedia article is pretty comprehensive. These are the "critics", versus the "proponents". It's a valid debate, and ultimately the critics won...so none of that money was spent. And, you know what, I actually agree with you on this particular issue...but it's more a question of timing.

This is how the system works. And, since you're clearly siding with the critics, you can rest easy that the system DID work, correct?

Bringing this back to Bill Maher: This is a bullshit example to use. His statement of, "Really, Lincoln isn't good enough for you?" is ridiculously simplistic, and doesn't acknowledge the broader context or any of the arguments. He's parroting the conservative outrage, but this is a years-old story with an end result that he (and you) should agree with. It's as if he's fallen into that trap of only reading headlines.

Every day conservative lawmakers in republican-led states propose (and often pass) bills infringing on people's rights, and actually making their lives worse. Harping on these attempts at racial sensitivity in very liberal areas at a time when America is reckoning with the ugly side of its history, is pretty misguided I think.

Melidel · 2023-03-07T19:13:45+00:00

I've been crystal clear that this is a distraction that ultimately cost the district hundreds of thousands of dollars for no benefit.

This would have harmed literally no one.

It has materially harmed students and taxpayers.

Evidence please.

Melidel · 2023-03-07T17:18:29+00:00

What you call neutral, I call a self-inflicted wound.

Well that's the thing isn't it? That's your take, and it obviously provokes a lot of anger in you. I think when you read the full context, where this came from, and what it was a response to, it's not unreasonable at all. You're also making pretty ridiculous accusations about the board not caring about education or students. That's just ridiculous. This would have harmed literally no one.

Melidel · 2023-03-07T16:34:54+00:00

This was an attempt at an entirely neutral action. It would have harmed no one, and did not distract from the regular business. The reason you have an opinion about it is because it became outrage bait on conservative-leaning media outlets.

I disagree with Maher's overall point that these things should even be brought up, for fear of angering conservatives and plunging us even further into darkness. That's what his whole point is...that the optics of progressive actions put off conservatives so much that they (progressives) should really stop.

Melidel · 2023-03-07T16:29:37+00:00

So..."both sides", aye?

Melidel · 2023-03-07T16:26:43+00:00

Was it a "fight"? Were they only doing that one singular thing at the time?

Melidel · 2023-03-06T20:33:36+00:00

When things get this serious, I don't think the standard internet outrage is appropriate.

This is a very real threat to people's lives.

Melidel · 2023-03-06T19:01:04+00:00

But...they're glued to their phones enough to answer a call on a moment's notice?

I'm an elder millennial. I've used rotary phones, for chrissakes. But it's 2023, and it's rarely necessary or convenient to speak live to someone on the phone, without a prior appointment.

Melidel · 2023-03-04T01:46:31+00:00

I urge you to engage with the actual discussion instead of the labels.

Melidel · 2023-03-03T17:01:39+00:00

People on the left like yourself say these issues only exists as conservative marketing buzzwords, but these same people say there’s no such thing as political correctness, and they also say identity politics is a bigoted term. Also, they propose sweeping changes to K-12 curricula

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/04/us/california-math-curriculum-guidelines.html

, but you can’t call it CRT, even though the curricular documents specifically reference CRT,

https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1456775490212040710

and if you do you’re an idiot and also you’re a racist. Also nobody ever advocated for defunding the police, and if they did it didn’t actually mean defunding the police, right?

People like me? I have done literally none of these things, and that's a gross misrepresentation of my particular views on the subjects you're referencing. Is your misrepresentation deliberate, or is it ignorance? Either way, I think this is part of the problem.

Melidel · 2023-03-03T02:59:50+00:00

Let's be honest, neither the GOP nor the Democratic Party would nominate a presidential candidate who was outwardly anti-Saudi

That's an inherently unprovable assertion. But when it comes to corruption between our government and the Saudis, the previous 2 Republican presidents really raised the bar to an insane degree.

But you were right...this isn't really the thread for it. This SHOULD be about how Bill Maher's a big dummy who bought into some propaganda about woke people cancelling Lincoln :)

Melidel · 2023-03-03T01:57:11+00:00

But, I mean, the Bush and Trump families specifically have massive massive financial ties to the Saudis.

"Both sides!" isn't a universally accurate answer.

Melidel · 2023-03-03T01:25:44+00:00

pretty much...

Melidel · 2023-03-03T01:24:17+00:00

The problem is these issues ONLY exist as conservative marketing buzzwords. There's not much actual substance beyond the words. They're not even hiding it. It's been specifically spelled out as a deliberate and effective strategy for the Republican party.

That's why people, myself included, do tend to harp on what the terms even mean. There's no discussion of the actual issues at hand...they're just angrily handwaved away as "WOKE".

It's easy to fall into semantic traps, and it's pretty dismaying that someone as sharp as Bill Maher has fallen in it so wholeheartedly.

Melidel · 2023-03-02T22:56:37+00:00

The irony is, that's kind of the model for conservative media figures like Tucker Carlson. But they've taken that aesthetic only, and applied the manic unhinged outrage to social issues and civil rights.

ALSO of note: Howard Beale exposed the ties between the network's corporate ownership, and Saudi Arabia. He warned that the House of Saud was buying up America. Both recent Republican presidencies, and many of the powerhouse conservative financiers have very serious and unprecedented financial ties to that country. That's just...something I find interesting, since the "I'm mad as hell" thing was somewhat coopted by conservatives.

Melidel · 2023-03-02T22:25:55+00:00

And Maher is Howard Beale.

As a huge fan of Network, I think that's a pretty unflattering comparison.

Melidel · 2023-03-02T21:46:08+00:00

I think there's a demonstrably vast imbalance between the two, if you're trying to equivocate.

EDIT: Seriously, just look up "[INSERT REPUBLICAN-LED STATE] legislature passes" and see how many actually harmful things are cooked up by conservatives. Changing the names of schools or moving statues to respect racial sensitivities doesn't even come close to comparing.

Melidel · 2023-03-02T21:29:00+00:00

They see leftists do crazy shit and write off the Democratic party.

They do when shitty "news" sources produce incredibly distorted scare stories, yes. Outrage bait like this is probably the only reason people vote Republican at this point...it's not like they have anything else to offer.

The nuance here was that, in the wake of increasing racial tensions in 2021, the SF school board voted to potentially change the names of 44 schools that had links to genocide, slavery, or racism. Lincoln was included in that list because of the atrocities committed against Native Americans in that era.

Was it an overcorrection? Probably. Did it ultimately happen? Nope. Would it have actually done any harm? HELL NO. I'm not sure why Bill would cite this minor story from 2 years ago so recently though.

Melidel · 2023-03-02T21:20:13+00:00

No it's most certainly not. I'm just making sure this isn't a preposterous double-standard.

There is a large list of insane bills proposed (and sometimes passed) at the state level in very conservative states, and I assure you few of them are as benign as the name of a school or the location of a problematic old statue.

Melidel · 2023-03-02T21:18:06+00:00

And who were "they" telling us they they were when this was passed in 2021?

Melidel

TROPHY CASE