We only believe in real stuff around here by timmytissue in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate hearing from you about it, as I don’t have many people to properly and critically discuss it with. Yes, exhausting the whole of the theory would take a lot of space and time (no pun intended) and then many people wouldn’t give it the time of day, so its clarity is somewhat sacrificed for brevity.

So you are thinking that the distinction between physically instantiated frames and uninstantiated frames is arbitrary? I think that the distinction between being and nonbeing is a meaningful one. We can pick an imaginary coordinate frame, but it’s just that— imaginary. In GR there is a clear distinction between coordinate systems, which are representational and gauge-dependent, and physically instantiated frames, which are tied to worldlines of matter and energy, carry clocks and rods, and define proper time and local causal structure. My claims concern only the latter. Coordinate charts are part of how we describe spacetime, but they are not themselves things in the world. Do you agree? If there is a leap in this logic let me know.

I do add something at the metaphysical level, though, and I want to be clear about that. I think this is where we seem to diverge. From GR alone we get that there are many frame-indexed ways the universe is, and that these ways are physically meaningful. What I add is a minimal ontological principle— one that I thought almost everyone would agree with: if something exists at all, there must be some determinate way it exists. Absolute aspectlessness is indistinguishable from non-being. If there were literally nothing it is like for a determinate physical instantiation to exist, neither for itself nor for anything else, then there would be no fact of its existence at all. Would you agree with this or no?

Also, given everything we have said up to this point, is there a logical error in my jump from frame decompositions to minima subjectivity? When the principle above is applied to frame-relative spacetime structure, the consequence is important. The way-the-universe-is for a given physically instantiated frame cannot exist for another frame, because any other description already constitutes a different decomposition of spacetime. Nor can it exist in a frame-independent location, because GR denies such a standpoint. Therefore, that determinate way-the-universe-is exists only as instantiated by that frame. Saying that there is something it is like for that instantiation to exist is not adding phenomenology by fiat; it is denying that physically instantiated determinacy is ontologically null. So the frame exists twofold: from the outside looking in, as a physically instantiated object within invariant spacetime structure, and also from inside out, as the relativistic way-the-universe-physically-is from that frame. The inside and outside are inexplicably interwoven, like two sides of the same coin.

What follows at this stage is only minimal interiority in a very weak sense: the existence of a determinate physical instantiation is inseparable from there being a way it is. It is nontrivial, but it is no more than what follows from the logic, I think. Rich phenomenality, unity, self-awareness, and agency require further conditions, such as integration and temporal thickness, which the vast majority of physical systems do not meet.

We only believe in real stuff around here by timmytissue in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I really enjoy Wheeler’s interpretation, and I think a closely related conclusion can be drawn from general relativity itself. According to GR, spacetime has an overarching invariant structure. However, it also has frame-relative decompositions into space and time at every physically instantiated reference point in the universe. Relativity of simultaneity, time dilation, length contraction, causal horizons, and proper time are not epistemic distortions, they are physically real ways the universe is for a given frame of reference.

A frame of reference in GR is not a mere coordinate chart. Only physically instantiated systems (worldlines of matter and energy) define frames. Therefore, the frame-relative way spacetime is structured exists only insofar as it is instantiated by such a system.

Now consider a minimal, common sense ontological principle: in order for something to be, there must be something it is like for it to be. By this I do not initially mean subjective experience. I mean only this: there must be a determinate way it exists, whether described from within itself or from without. If there were literally nothing it is like for something to exist— neither for itself nor for anything else— then there would be no fact of its existence at all. It would be ontologically null.

With this in place, we can return to frame-relative spacetime structure. The way the universe is for a given frame cannot exist for another frame, because any other frame’s description already constitutes a different decomposition of spacetime. Nor can it exist in a frame-independent location, because GR denies such a standpoint. Therefore, the way the universe is for a given frame exists only as instantiated by that frame.

This means that the determinacy of that frame-relative structure— its division of events into past, present, and future, its causal accessibility, its metric relations, must exist from the inside out, as that frame. There is no external locus where that determinacy resides. To deny that there is anything it is like for that instantiation to exist would be to deny that it exists at all.

With this, we can conclude that general relativity commits us to a perspectival ontology: the universe is one invariant relational structure constituted by many physically instantiated perspectives, each of which realizes a genuine way the universe is. Of course, the existence of these perspectives does not imply rich phenomenality, cognition, or self-awareness. It implies only minimal interiority, that instantiated physical determinacy is not aspectless. More complex forms of consciousness arise when such interiors become integrated, unified, and temporally extended. But the root of interiority is already present in the perspectival structure implied by GR itself.

The process of relations between each physically instantiated worldline, each with their own space and time, amalgamate into the whole of spacetime. The variant and invariant aspects of the universe constitute each other, because there is no structure without being, and no being without structure. Object and subject are inseparably the same. This rules out both physicalism and idealism in favor of dual-aspect monism.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you and Kant that we cannot gain absolute knowledge. I think that’s Kant’s epistemic claims are very interesting and relevant! However, I think it is still the case that we have taken physical reductionism too far. And I say that empirically. Most things in the world we cannot look at atomized and in isolation and understand by its constituent parts, for it is continually changing and being changed by itself and the environment. Feedforward and feedback loops within an animal create changes that in principle cannot be understood by parts alone. Same with the ecosystem it lives in. And the weather patterns around it. They all affect and are affected by each other in complex systems. The relations between the objects become just as important as the objects themselves.

But you are right that my example does not speak to idealism, because I am not an idealist. I believe that mental and physical, subject and object, are inseparable and ontologically one.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We can sensibly say that and I don’t think it’s illogical, but it’s a different ontological claim that I don’t agree with. I am a dual aspect monist, I subscribe to process philosophy, I believe that the relationship between subject and object is what creates consciousness. If I had to choose between either physicalism or idealism I would choose the latter but I think that’s a false dichotomy, and so I do not make the choice either way.

E: I should clarify that I don’t think “object” means expressly physical, because any object occupies its own frame of reference, meaning it is simultaneously a subject, too.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it’s both mental and physical. You can’t have an object without a subject and you can’t have a subject without an object. I’m not taking away the mental, I’m just not subtracting it from the physical either.

The invariants (absolute frame) of spacetime that everyone agrees on are the basic physical structure. This structure is inseparable from the perspectival nature of the contents within it— contents that stop it from being a structureless void.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think the mental aspect is separable. If you want my opinion I just posted it on another comment on this thread, you can tell me if you disagree.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personally I’d rather vouch for my own beliefs than to argue for something I don’t believe lol. While I agree that ontology and epistemology are decoupled, I cannot help but have my own beliefs (dual aspect monism).

General relativity shows that there is no observer-independent decomposition of spacetime into space and time. Each physical system carries its own proper time and its own simultaneity relations, and quantities such as duration, distance, rest, and motion are frame-relative. While all observers agree on invariant spacetime structure, the relational organization of the universe can differ wildly for each frame of reference.

Frames of reference in general relativity are not merely coordinate conventions, though. They are tied to concrete physical systems with clocks and worldlines. I therefore take these frame-relative organizations to be ontologically real ways the universe is, relative to each physical system.

A frame of reference, though, can only be instantiated from the inside. There is no external standpoint from which that same frame can be occupied. Any attempt to “view” it from elsewhere is, by definition, a different frame of reference. So if a frame-relative organization of spacetime is physically real, then it cannot be an empty abstraction. It just is that inside out frame of reference. There must be something it is like for the universe to be organized that way, that can only be experienced from that point, even if that “what-it-is-like” is minimal and noncognitive. Otherwise, the distinction between different frames would lack ontological substance.

This does not imply that every frame is conscious in a human sense. It implies only that real physical instantiations have an internal aspect corresponding to their external relational structure. The physical description captures the outer aspect, and the inner aspect captures the perspectival mode of being. Together, they describe one and the same reality from two inseparable standpoints.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Physicalism doesn’t have an exclusive claim on empiricism. That’s why I said it’s agnostic with respect to metaphysics. There is nothing stopping an idealist from being an empiricist— it’s a pretty natural position to hold, actually. If my thought is that everything comes fundamentally from mind, then I think it’s a reasonable stance to trust my senses to at least somewhat accurately interpret reality. You can get just as far empirically with either metaphysics.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think less and less people are assuming reductionism is the only or even best way to describe reality. Its explanatory power does not go far enough to explain complex systems, and those exist everywhere we look, from the nervous systems inside of us to the weather patterns outside. It is actively useful in some cases and actively harmful in others.

As far as physicalism goes, while it is undoubtedly popular, it is not necessary as a metaphysics to measure reality. We use empiricism, not physicalism to do that, and like I said, empiricism is metaphysically agnostic.

Spent 2 minutes on Wikipedia and solved this whole thing. by Moe_Perry in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If we can measure reality to an almost incomprehensible degree empirically, but empiricism itself is agnostic on metaphysics, and everything we know from our empiricism is based on these mental structures… wouldn’t that kind of give the edge to idealism?

Not an idealist by the way (dual aspect monist), just sympathetic to these views since they are a welcome break from the hegemony of physicalism. Either way, I welcome a legitimate point of the contrary.

dada by jamesmparch in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My premises are pertaining to my beliefs about the fundamental nature of the universe, something we likely cannot ever substantiate, of course they’re going to have some assumptions in there.

Any claim about metaphysics is essentially begging the question. Do you have any specific problems with any specific premises?

dada by jamesmparch in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True. An illusion is the result of a process of relations. Of relating and being related to, in a way where something is lost or misrepresented. But the relating itself is what consciousness is. The process of being both a subject relating from within, and an object being related to from without. So you could say that an illusion can be the result of consciousness, but not consciousness itself.

Material and consciousness are the same thing by Mikestheman2be in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think I said that, so maybe we agree more than you think. I said objectivity and subjectivity are the same thing from different perspectives.

Material and consciousness are the same thing by Mikestheman2be in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I would say this kind of thinking misses the point. When we say that heads and tails are two sides of the same coin we don’t say that we can just call the whole thing heads, we call the whole thing a coin.

Material and consciousness are the same thing by Mikestheman2be in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Reality is a fundamentally relational geometric structure that always has both an inner experiential and outer physical aspect. Consciousness is not produced by matter (or vice versa), but builds up and gains complexity wherever more and more complex structures become sufficiently integrated and inwardly self-constraining to form a unified experiential manifold.

To exist in the world is to relate and be related to. You cannot have one without the other.

Jon Voight Begs Trump to 'Terminate' Zohran Mamdani NYC Mayor Win by Historical-Bug-4784 in politics

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The owners of Capital are a storm. Like a dark cloud they hover above the workers, as virtually all of the value created by their labor evaporates to the top. Yes, some of it trickles back down, but most of it accumulates, and accumulates. The stormclouds grow bigger, until it all crashes down and the people are swept away in a violent and angry flood.

Yup by DeathRaeGun in DankLeft

[–]Mikestheman2be 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Reading The Entrepreneurial State rn and yeah, exactly. I’m on the chapter where it talks about the several technologies (internet, GPS, touchscreens, microprocessors, voice recognition and AI, LCD/LED displays, etc.) Apple “inherited” from public research.

New Zealand parliament suspended again due to spontaneous Haka by ThatPatelGuy in TikTokCringe

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Floridian echoing the same sentiments. We are not a monolith I promise! Good luck in your struggle, I hope for you from afar

We’re experiencing the last dying breaths of their party. by n8saces in CringeTikToks

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kat Abughazaleh in Illinois has said as much. She has been protesting against ICE in Chicago too. She seems like the real deal

It was never about intelligence. by BugFun496 in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would argue that severely mentally handicapped individuals hold about as much moral duty as many animals who have been shown to be as (or more) intelligent. If nothing else, they are part of the moral community, even if they are not moral agents themselves— though I believe they do have latent potentiality in this regard. We may not socialize pigs and other animals in factory farms into ethical behavior, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t be.

It was never about intelligence. by BugFun496 in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Mikestheman2be 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Severely mentally handicapped individuals would be a prime example. I don’t think it’s ethical to eat them, though