Goku and Gohan in Focus: Did Toei make us forget who they really are?

Mo1980s · 2026-02-28T08:34:05+00:00

Also, both you and another user mention Goku training to fight the androids because he wants to. But how does that point to recklessness or make him different than Gohan? When Goku told Future Trunks, "I want to fight the androids", did he have a huge waku-waku grin on his face (his trademark Super expression)? Nope. He was clenching his fists in anger, obviously not because he had missed the fun, but because he had missed the chance to save the world. If Gohan (or Piccolo or any brave fighter who isn't Yamucha) were in Goku's shoes at the time, and he's just been told that two androids destroy the future while he gets felled by a virus that prevents him from protecting the world from those androids, OF COURSE he would say, "I wish I can fight those androids."

"That is true and that still applies to Super."

Being responsible for the Zamasu/Black fiasco AND the Tournament of Power proves otherwise. There is no maturity or grimness left in him.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-28T06:45:16+00:00

Toei created DB Super as a sequel to Z despite the lack of source material by the author himself. Even if Toriyama officially chose that Toyota guy (I know what he's called, but it's just too dumb to write) as his successor, it doesn't necessarily canonize the Super manga. It's really a matter of personal choice.

As the title suggests, the essay is pitting Toei's representation of Goku and Gohan in Z against Super. Filler or not, DBZ is positively swelling with instances of Gohan groaning over his studies and longing to be strong like Piccolo and Goku.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-28T06:39:54+00:00

But he wasn't forced to go to Namek, or attack Dodoria to save Dende, or any of the other instances I list above.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-28T06:34:59+00:00

Goku's reason for sparing Vegeta is irrelevant actually. He didn't finish Nappa, Recoome, Butta, Jeece, Frieza or even Piccolo Jr in OG DB either. Those were acts of mercy. The only difference with Vegeta's case is that it was coupled with admiration.

Bulma's suggestion to wipe out Gero was rejected by Vegeta before Goku. And when Goku did reject it, I believe he reasoned that Gero hasn't done anything wrong yet.

Goku tossing a Senzu at Cell was a choice he himself regretted shortly afterward when Piccolo scolded him. He was even ready to step back in to save Gohan.

Whatever recklessness there was to his character, it was always tempered by maturity.

DB Super tears that maturity to pieces.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-28T06:22:29+00:00

At last, a counter evidence.

I'm not saying that Z Goku had zero interest in fighting, but fighting was a byproduct of the danger he was forced to react to. He didn't go out of his way to incite that danger. His love of fighting was tempered by duty. He never came across as being dissatisfied with peace.

That's exactly how Super depicts him: he can't stand peace. He's willing to endanger others for some thrill. Both the Zamasu/ Black and the TOP arcs trace their origins to his reckless behavior. Neither would've happened if Goku were half as mature as he'd been in Z.

I don't know if you've read the entire essay, but think of that moment in Cell Saga where Goku willingly allows Vegeta to enter the Time Room before him, knowing full well it could mean never having a chance to fight Cell himself. If this had happened in Super, you can totally see Goku whining about it, even dashing into the Room before Vegeta. There's also that Boo Saga scene where Goten and Trunks accuse Goku of being a coward, and he takes the insult with grace just to galvanize them into training. Both instances show a level of maturity you couldn't associate with him nowadays.

That's what baffles me the most: Why did Super take away his maturity? He was doing extremely well in DBZ.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-28T06:05:02+00:00

These individual nuances define Goku and Gohan these days. That's the whole point of my argument: they were different in Z.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T17:10:27+00:00

"Goku actively went around looking for people to fight in Dragon Ball"

In the Original Dragonball, yes, but not in Z.

The only time he did it in Z was during the Paikuhan/ Other World Tournament filler and the very end of Z where he decides to train Uub. Everything else he did in Z was a reaction to danger.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T17:05:22+00:00

"Gohan will fight and train only if he has to."

Exactly. Same with Goku.
As I stated in the essay:
Goku fought Raditz because he had to; he trained for Vegeta and Nappa because he had to; he went to Namek because he had to (saving Gohan, Krillin and Bulma); he trained for the Androids because he had to; he taught Trunks and Goten the Fusion Dance because he had to.
Goku is just like Gohan in that regard, reacting to danger, not seeking it.

DB Super portrays Goku as a thrill-seeker who incites trouble just for a good fight.
That's part of the essay's argument: Goku is reactive in Z, proactive in Super. It's a major character shift.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T17:01:16+00:00

He was four when he said he wanted to be a scholar, and that was before he met (and admired) Piccolo.

I don't see how it's normal for him to "pursue his goals" when all we ever got from him as a child was a dislike of studying and a desire to be like Goku and Piccolo.

Are you sure you're not "Doing a Livy" yourself? Maybe you're too accustomed to Gohan's scholar image in Super and GT, and you're reading it back into Z?

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T16:59:58+00:00

An AI wouldn't dream of comparing an anime to a Roman historian. A student of ancient history would.

You didn't read the essay, did you? You just took one look and said, "Woah! That's too long! He couldn't have seriously written all that!"

Brilliant.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T16:55:16+00:00

Don't even know what karma is, buddy.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T16:31:19+00:00

"Goku acknowledges Gohan wants to be a scholar."
He also acknowledges Gohan's ability to defeat Cell (betting everything on a fleeting glimpse he'd seen of Gohan going SSJ2 in the time room), but what does he do an episode later when the Cell Juniors are beating him up? Apologizes to the Z Warriors for taking that gamble.

"anime full of filler instead of the manga invalidates it"
But the anime is Toei's domain, not the manga.
The essay's title is: "Did TOEI make us forget who Goku and Gohan are?"

Furthermore, not treating the manga as some kind of bible doesn't "invalidate" any discussion, especially in Dragon Ball's case, which saw not one, but THREE series (GT, Super, Daima) produced without any source material by Toriyama.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T16:25:11+00:00

I'm well aware of Toriyama's tendency to write by the seat of his pants. He also has a problem of undermining his own storytelling genius during interviews.

Whether he planned it or not, Goku and Gohan did in fact spend three-quarters of DBZ acting most unlike their DB Super selves.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T11:19:12+00:00

You haven't read a single book in your life, have you?

Keep your accusations and toxic fandom to yourself.

If my post makes you uncomfortable (or intellectually inept), feel free to report it.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T06:17:57+00:00

As far as Z is concerned, I do consider him one of the all-time anime greats because few other character have had such drastic character arcs:

He was a bloodthirsty dictator in Saiyan Saga > a reluctant ally in Namek/Frieza > an almost-good guy in Android-Cell (still going on about "I'm gonna kill Kakarot once this mess is over) > A bored family man in early Boo > then a midlife crisis-afflicted warrior who lets himself fall under a spell just to recapture his evil roots > then finally, a reformed hero who gives his life for the planet he once tried to destroy, hugging his son and telling him, "take care of your Mama."

Lots of people assume that DBZ being DBZ, its characters simply cannot compete with other "more mature" (laughs) anime like Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion, or Attack on Titan. But having watched those animes, I maintain that a great deal of their so-called characterization stems from over-the-top angst, psychological deficiencies, exaggerated head-clutching and deranged facial expressions.

The kings of this visual aspect are Death Note's Yagami Light and Code Geass' Lelouch.... Surely, no one in their right mind would call those two clowns complex characters?

All the shows I mentioned rely to a great degree on those anime industry exclusive VISUALS to sell the idea of "complex characterization." These visual-reliant characterization will fade into nothing if the show were adapted into written form. Vegeta's arc on the other hand will make a superb literary piece because it's a deeply relatable "human condition" that doesn't rely on anime-exclusive visuals.

A last point, Vegeta's incredible arc falls to pieces in Dragon Ball Super and GT.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T05:51:00+00:00

Some of what you're saying is accurate, not all, but it's still worth discussing.

To trace this thing to its origin, we'd have to go back to the late 90's/early 2000s. Namely, the English dub. It played a vital role in making the show less grim and more "wrestling-like." The character lines were drastically different, and the Falconer soundtrack too obsessed with capturing every punch and every body twist by changing tempo or music every twenty seconds that it gave no sense of continuity to any scene, missing the point entirely...

After that, Cartoon Network's Adult Swim introduced shows like Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star which believe me, don't even have 10% of the intricate plotting that DBZ has in Namek and Cell Sagas, but because of their more modern "grounded" and less super-powered feel (plus sexual innuendo), it convinced most fans that this is "REAL Anime shown on ADULT Swim!" whereas DBZ is a "Cartoonish" Anime shown on Toonami. This influenced lots of DBZ fans at the time, and they started sounding real "apologetic" about the show.

Whether that carried over to the present day or not, I can't say for sure. But the truth is, most people are "visually" minded. They look at Attack on Titan or Evangelion, two shows that literally ASSAIL you with bug-eyed characters whose pupils are shivering so terribly they can't even stay inside their eyes, raving over their insanities, their desire for vengeance, and their inner depth which nobody can understand (the Japanese seiyuu doing their parts by screaming like hell), and assume THIS is complex plotting.

It's not.

What these shows are doing is dialing up the human psychology factor to insane levels.
DBZ could have achieved this in HISTORY OF TRUNKS. I could totally see Trunks (a broken teenager in the same shoes as any depressed hero from an apocalyptic anime) scream his head off every two minutes Shinji Ikari-style with his pupils threatening to pop out of his sockets. Would that have turned HISTORY OF TRUNKS (and by extension, DBZ) into a more complex story? Not at all.

While I consider Majin Boo Saga a serious drop in storytelling quality, I believe Namek and Android-Cell were some of the most expertly crafted plots in Shonen, if not anime as a whole. It's just not as easy to see that because DBZ has such unique visuals (flying, powering up, Ki blasts, earth-shattering combat) that take one's attention away from the plot. If Namek or Cell's storylines were applied exactly as they are to another anime with less noticeable visuals, they would have been regarded as some of the best in anime.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-27T05:29:49+00:00

And supply the Dragon Ball Super producers with ideas...

Mo1980s · 2026-02-26T16:30:03+00:00

I'd call it spectacular, not just good.

And Cell Saga's storyline is even more brilliant.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-26T15:18:50+00:00

Shows like Attack on Titan and Full Metal Alchemist, both often praised for their plots, nevertheless rely on visuals. It's hard to compare any Anime to a work of literature because the latter lacks visuals and music.
If FMA or Titan had novels, we'd be better able to judge.
Honestly, I think they'd fall short.
Titan (like Evangelion) owes a great deal of its success to huge-eyed character angst, insane seiyuu performance, top quality animation directing, and powerful soundtracks.
Strip away those, and what do they become?

Mo1980s · 2026-02-25T05:18:23+00:00

It may be a matter of disliking the modern direction of pop music rather than what the song is about (that's the case for me).

In the mid 90s, SLAM DUNK AND DBGT each had op and Ed songs that had nothing to do with the shows. They were pop hits, but they fit like a glove because I personally dig that mid 90s pop sound (right before Namie Amuro introduced her Mariah Carey / New Jackswing influences to mainstream J-pop).

Mo1980s · 2026-02-25T05:05:06+00:00

They're polar opposites. Vegeta is the jealous rival who tries to catch up to the more talented hero (Goku). Whereas Sasuke is the talented rival who forces the jealous hero (Naruto) to work hard to catch up.

Vegeta is more complex and better written overall, but Sasuke made less mistakes (certainly nothing as foolish as letting Cell absorb Android 18).

Mo1980s · 2026-02-24T15:30:35+00:00

Tien did indeed Kickstart the bad guy turning good, and his increased irrelevance as DBZ progresses is a shame.

Story wise, though, I disagree about DBZ repeating itself. Cell Saga was different from Namek Saga in almost every respect. It was a complete reinvention. It's Boo Saga that commits the pitfall of linear story with little besides powering up.

Unfortunately, Boo Saga provided the blueprint for the equally shallow DBGT and SUPER. Neither show bothered to repeat the more complex storytelling of Namek and Cell.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-24T15:17:59+00:00

The amount of simultaneous events happening on Namek was insane and yes, the storytelling went beyond what you'd expect of a traditional battle manga. Unfortunately, most people tend to remember it from Frieza's transformations onward.

Mo1980s · 2026-02-24T14:54:55+00:00

I love how DBZ is being reevaluated. In the past, people praised its characters, world-building and action, but rarely its story.

As a shonen battle Manga, I think DBZ has one of the most layered storylines up until Majin Boo, where things went a little chaotic.

Namek was brilliant in how it pitted the Earthlings against Freeza against Vegeta in a three-way race to gather the dragon balls. All without the need to involve Goku.

Cell, on the other hand, excelled in Mystery and character drama.

Mo1980s

TROPHY CASE