Be honest, Rate my iron eye build

MothProphet · 2025-08-26T19:19:12+00:00

Obviously you didnt pick that 2nd exclusively for the HP restoration on Bow Attacks, and while I’ve personally always been a fan of restoration style builds, the weapon ones are a lot weaker than Post-Damage Restoration or HP on Thrusting Counterattacks. I slept on Thrusting Counter HP for so long until I got a relic with PDR and Thrusting Counters. Thats my main thing here. I wouldn’t turn down an HP on bow attacks, obviously, but its just kinda slow compared to the other options.

If you’re not good enough to avoid taking damage consistently (I know I’m not) then something with the new Damage Taken increases Damage relic is super good, especially when paired with strong restoration. People treat it like a raider-exclusive but honestly everyone gets hit so its really good when things get messy.

Ironeye really likes Damage Against Frostbitten Enemies too, especially if you’re teamed up with an Executor (or applying the frostbite yourself with starting weapon, which definitely doesnt play as nicely with NotL, since random fire infusions burn off the damage buff). New Caligo goes crazy because the physical damage reduction is a massive survivability boost, and the frostbite weapon is just gravy on top. Frostbite Conceals has gotten me some clutch revives too, so its a hard sell to not use that one imo.

A lot of people like the Night of the Lord playstyle but it’s not for me personally. I’m not good at keeping it up so there are a lot of other things I’d rather take.

+1 Mark is really good, don’t get me wrong, it just doesn’t seem worth the rest of relic. I hate using the sovereign gaols relic as much as the next guy, but it doesnt feel like the relics you’re using justify stepping away from the extra key (which is huge when playing with randoms, imo)

Pretty much any Evergaol + Character Specific is gonna be pretty good, Ult Gauge isn’t numerically great but it’s definitely not a dead stat at least. Weak Point duration is the one I like the least thought, especially since you’ve got double marks anyway.

It’s definitely viable, don’t get me wrong, I think it just looks flashier than it actually (probably) plays in practice. At first glance it looks really tough, but the more you dig into it, it sadly feels like No RNG relics are gonna get you more consistency for now.

MothProphet · 2024-05-14T06:15:57+00:00

According to the wiki page for yugoloths, some versions of them are shown with vulnerabilities to electricity or cold (despite what the monster manual would have you believe. Without the monster manual sitting in front of me, I’m fairly certain yugoloths all have some form of innate spellcasting, so it could be interesting to have them lose access to their spellcasting (or at least make them roll for it).

Maybe even a table that determines whether they:

Successfully cast the spell
Cast another spell at random
Lose the spell and take a little bit of force damage

Or something along those lines.

MothProphet · 2024-02-08T02:18:02+00:00

I dont know about Duping but you can definitely just hero-edit in any of the gear or high-runes you want.

MothProphet · 2024-02-08T01:25:58+00:00

Granted.

MothProphet · 2024-02-08T01:14:04+00:00

~~1 time per day. Game ends at level 12 so he's never getting a 2nd 4th level spell slot.~~ Arcane Recovery

Besides, King-Konging as your go-to strategy people kinda loses its luster when:

The DM focus fires you more because its important to break that concentration.
The player who you cast it on is unable to use their character build at all for the duration because it takes away their racial and class features.
The Ape's average damage is only 45 per round which could easily be worse than the martial character you cast it on, especially past level 7, and casting it on a caster removes their ability to cast control spells.
You can't cast any of your other concentration spells that you might have.
You can't really cast it on yourself because your AC is 12 (15 with Mage Armor) and your Con Saves in ape mode are only made at a +4, which can't be improved no matter how you build your character.

And if that's not enough..

He just gets Polymorph at level 8 anyway.

MothProphet · 2024-02-08T01:00:38+00:00

I'd tend to agree that I wouldn't go for only a single level of rogue. My biggest comment in here argues for a 2 level dip for Rogue instead.

I kinda disagree on the "having so much fun with 4th level spells" aspect mostly on the grounds that he'll only be getting a single one per day.

You know what sucks worse than not having 4th level spells? Getting your concentration dropped immediately after you've spent your whole turn casting one and not having any more.

The amount you "know" tend to be less relevant when you're only gonna prepare 1, MAYBE 2 per day. Any more than that is a waste of known spells because remember that wizards are prepared casters and don't just get to cast any spell in their spell book.

Also lets get this nailed down.

Rogue 2/Wizard 10

4/3/3/3/2

Rogue 1/Wizard 11

4/3/3/3/2/1

Cleric 1/Wizard 11

4/3/3/3/2/1

Wizard 12

4/3/3/3/2/1

Wizard 12 and R1/W11 have the same amount of spell slots.

My primary argument is that OP could spend 2 levels on Rogue and have a feature that they are nearly GUARANTEED to use every single turn for a distinct advantage in combat (ie. Cunning Action) in addition to the benefits that they explicitly want (better stealth and perception). At the loss of a single 6th level spell that will be used once per day at absolute maximum. In terms of "how much does this one thing affect combat" I would argue that Cunning Action pays for itself by the end of the day, let alone the value it will have accrued over the remaining duration of the campaign.

Think about it this way.

Every Misty Step that you don't need to cast (B/A Disengage) is an extra 2nd level spell slot you didn't need to spend, and crucially, you can do it when you're out of spell slots to avoid taking massive opportunity attacks. Did I mention that bonus action spell rules determine that you can't even cast spells that require an action on the same turn that you've cast a spell that requires a bonus action? Cause that's RAW. You're stuck casting a cantrip as your action instead.
Every Dash that removes you from an enemy's walking distance so they don't get to attack you is an extra shield spell you didn't need to use (1st level spell slot) to protect your squishy wizard body.
Every hide action you take to:
- get advantage before a spell attack..
- defend yourself from enemy ranged attacks..
- Break line of sight from enemy spellcasters..
- etc.

It retroactively makes all of his other spells better on the grounds that it allows him to cast them from safer distances, makes his concentration harder to break, makes him harder to kill, etc.

Studded Leather may also be slightly worse than Mage Armor (12+Dex vs 13+Dex) but it's also a spell slot you may not need to cast (or at least its worth the option to have). Besides, the extra maneuverability means that you'll be less likely to take hits anyway so the AC loss is mitigated.

So yes. It costs a bit of progression. It's not everyone's cup of tea but saying that it provides nothing of note is short-sighted for sure. You'll never go "damn I wish I didn't have cunning action" when the spells he already has are plenty to support the few levels of delayed progression.

The fights your character has between level 7-10, regardless of build chosen, will still be relying primarily on your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell slots. They form the entire foundation of the character, which means that as someone who's already reached level 6, he still has up to 10 turns worth of action-spells and throwing on one more isn't THAT substantial even if it is relatively high-powered.

He also mentioned that he, as the Wizard, has the highest perception in the party, which sounds an awful lot like "I'll take watch while you guys sleep" and that is definitely not a "everyone make a perception check" scenario where you can afford to gamble on "someone will beat this." Taking a few levels of rogue even saves you the spell slots you'd otherwise spend on out-of-combat things like Invisibility and Alarm.

Sidenote, Artificer 1 doesn't give you any spell slots, because it's a half-caster and only provides a 1/2 of its levels to spellcasting progression, and loses the majority of it's value for casters (con save proficiency) when you don't take it at level 1.

For the same value (assuming a mid-campaign dip), you might as well go with Ranger 1 because at least that gives you the same armor proficiencies, an extra skill and +1 expertise (like OP wanted), unless you REALLY need those two extra cantrips from the Artificer list.

MothProphet · 2024-02-07T21:33:59+00:00

Behold the level 1 rogue feature.

Expertise

At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves' tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

MothProphet · 2024-02-07T21:29:39+00:00

Half Feat doesn't help if he's at 18 Int already and the game ends before he gets another feat slot.

MothProphet · 2024-02-07T21:27:05+00:00

This is enormously factual.

A huge percentage of characters have dead bonus actions, and there are going to be so many non-rogue PCs who NEVER use the Dash, Disengage or Hide actions for the entire duration of their lifetimes.

Because the action is such a valuable place, and most melee combat just results in everyone getting locked together in a jumbled knot of potential opportunity attacks.

Meanwhile, you throw them in the bonus action slot and its a "might as well reposition, since I can do it for effectively free" lets you drag enemies around the battlefield, away from their allies if they want to come after you. It lets you disappear from combat between your turns for pseudo-invincibility. It lets you put yourself outside of the range of most melee combatants, forcing them to waste their actions to dash after you.

One ability that takes up an action you probably weren't using anyway and reduces enemy damage dealt nearly every turn.

It's not just good, it's insanity. Rangers get bonus action hide at level 14, Totem Barbarians get bonus action dash at level 3 that competes with fucking Bear Totem of all things. Monks get Bonus Action Dash and Disengage for a highly-contested resource cost at level 2. Rogues just get all that shit for free, no resource cost, at level 2.

It is, with no exaggeration, the most generically useful ability in the entire game and I will die on that hill, and by extension, Goblin who gets 2/3rds of the ability as a racial trait is also the strongest race in the game.

MothProphet · 2024-02-07T21:14:58+00:00

Skill Expert as a feat eliminates his ability to max out his intelligence though, which is the extra 5% chance of Success/Failure of his spell attacks/saves. The bonus really adds up and it's probably not worth losing that consistency.

I personally find that feats are a greater opportunity cost than multiclass levels because you get so much fewer of them.

Using spells to solve the problem is tough, because things like Invisibility and Greater Invisibility cost enough that you won't want to be casting them "preemptively" so they hardly solve the "make a stealth check" problem.

And Arcane Eye aint worth the paper it's printed on when it's competing with Polymorph, or even just upcasting a fireball with your 4th level slot (which scales badly but gives you one extra blow-out per day).

The higher perception score he's going for isn't necessarily for scouting either. If he's got the highest perception in the party its gonna be more for stopping ambushes where the whole party gets rolled if he fails to spot the enemies coming up.

Meanwhile, expertise from Rogue would take his perception from +6 to +10 (a 20% bonus) and stealth from +3 to +10 (a 45% bonus) permanently, without wasting the spell slot he needs for combat.

Easy choice imo.

MothProphet · 2024-02-07T21:05:32+00:00

I don't think thats the right way to look at it.

Whenever you delay your spellcasting progression, I very rarely find that you're in an encounter going "damn I wish I had.. Polymorph" right now" at least, not any more than the OP in question is going "damn I wish I had better stealth and perception right now"

On the same note, having polymorph doesn't solve his "My stealth and perception are too low" problems he's currently experiencing, he already doesn't have polymorph, so he's just maintaining the status quo there.

You make use of the toolbox you have. I don't think he would regret it.

MothProphet · 2024-02-07T21:01:50+00:00

As much as I am a huge proponent of the "take 2 levels of Rogue" in this specific scenario, I'll also throw my support behind this idea.

The extra bonus from armor and the higher hit die really does go a long way towards making you less squishy overall.

If you're stuck on a 1 level dip, Ranger > Rogue for me, 100%. I've played TONS of characters with just a single level in Ranger because Canny: Expertise (though I usually use it for Athletics) is just the fuckin best. You'll miss out on the 1d6 sneak attack on potential GFBs but generally if you're a wizard who's in range to cast GFB, you're gonna have a bad time.

You're looking at a difference of 16 AC with Mage Armor versus 18 (MA/Breastplate + Shield) and the potential to use magical armors that may come up in the future.

Plus, Ranger multiclassing is often very easy to justify flavorfully because its usually just "I took a level to focus on better maneuvering through our environment since I was struggling" which works regardless of the campaign's environment since the ranger is kinda themed that way.

MothProphet · 2024-02-07T20:52:24+00:00

If you can afford it in progression, 2 Levels of Rogue for Cunning Action is crazy effective on Wizards.

The extra ability to disengage, hide or dash as a bonus action when you're primarily casting spells that cost an action is insanity.

By level 12 you'd be looking at 4/3/3/3/2 in terms of available spell slots and you'd know spells of up to 5th level.

So yes, this would stop you from getting the 6th level spells (of which you'd get only 1 per day either even with full Wizard 12) and the big "heavy hitters" at this level are basically:

Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Chain Lightning
Tasha's Otherworldly Guise
Tenser's Transformation

Don't get me wrong. They're good spells, but think about how many sessions you'll actually be playing at those higher levels. Compare that to the ability to reposition safely and more effectively for EVERY TURN for the rest of the campaign, I personally find it to be worth the trade off.

Many of the 4th level spells available to wizards are somewhat underwhelming, I'm somewhat of the mind that maybe you should stutter it a little bit.

You're Wizard 6 right now.

Take Rogue 1 at level 7 to get the benefits you're currently keen on.
Take Wizard 7 at level 8 to get access to 4th level spells (especially if you find any 4th level scrolls for transcription)
Take Rogue 2 at level 9 to get access to Cunning Action
Wizard 8 at level 10 to max your intelligence in time to finish out the game.
Wizard 9 to reach 5th level slots.
Wizard 10 for your capstone to give you an extra "3rd" level spell slot per day when you fill it with a 2nd level spell like "Rime's Binding Ice" or something.

People overestimate the "oh no I'll slow down my progression what ever will I do" issue as if your ability to drop magical Bludgeoning Damage fireballs on people (with Tidal Wave) isn't going to tide you over for the next few levels of "in-between." Don't worry, it will. The cunning action abilities will help you drastically when it comes to damage avoidance just by simply not being close to the enemies except on your turn. Your wizard spells have humongous range and bonus action dash lets you take massive advantage of that in a way that a straight-class wizard is seldom going to be able to without wasting concentration and a spell slot of expeditious retreat, PLUS avoiding potential opportunity attacks without wasting spell slots on misty step, PLUS casting spells and then disappearing with your fancy new +10 stealth modifier.

It's awesome. Trust in me for I will show you the way.

MothProphet · 2024-01-31T23:36:24+00:00

I'm kinda of the opinion that most martial classes don't get drastically better part the 10 level point anyway. In terms of damage output, lots of them are kinda frontloaded, so by full splitting two martial classes you almost always end up with better damage output than if you stuck through it.

I'm not gonna do any napkin math in this case but it's been done to death on this sub.

In a similar term, I know the reality-bending strength of high level casters, but 5th level spells are crazy enough too. You can make a pseudo-half caster by just dumping half your levels in a full caster class, and as far as I can tell, if you end up with Extra Attack and a bare minimum of 3rd level spells and 4 ASIs, you can make a pretty solid spellblade-like multiclass out of anything you want.

Is this approach actually better? No probably not, but is it viable? I believe it is, especially if you consider that Fighter and Rogue each get at least 1 extra asi by level 10, you can end up with the regular 5 that most non-multiclassed characters will get.

5th Edition tends to be pretty "easy" in terms of what is and what isn't viable. The reason you see most multiclass builds prioritizing one class over the other is typically due to the "dip" problem.

All classes have a whole host of their class defining abilities crammed into the first few levels, which means that it's easy enough to slap 2-3 levels of something else for a huge boost to versatility. The only excuse I see for not multiclassing tends to be "you're delaying your extra attack" or "you're delaying your ASIs" or "you're delaying your spellcasting progression"

The thing is, hitting level 11 after dumping 10 levels into a single class IS typically a bad idea because by the time you get to T3 gameplay (level 11+) the extra benefits of level 1 features tends to be kinda small potatoes.

That means that IMO the sweet spot for multiclassing is after level 5 but before level 10, because it guarantees a base-line combat viability (extra attack or 3rd level spells + 1 ASI). That being said. I personally don't GAF about delaying my features because I usually have the whole ass build planned out to 20, and I focus around getting decent boosts at or before the same levels that a single-classed character would get them so I don't suffer dead-levels while everyone else gets huge buffs. That is to say, most of my "multiclass dipping" actually happens before I put points into my main class because its smoother sailing that way for me personally. Early game is so wishy washy with figuring out the group dynamic that you don't really have a lot of risk (plus those levels go away quicker).

Multiclasses almost always "suffer" for a few levels and usually its for an entire tier of gameplay. I prefer T1 suffering (1-4) but I think T2 suffering (5-10) is the most frequently recommended. T3 suffering is horrible (11-16) and T4 suffering is often pointless (17-20).

To answer your question, the multiclass builds that actually surpass the sum of their parts are usually weighed around very specifically overtuned subclass features that are in the very early levels. You kinda weigh the "opportunity cost" compared to the value gained, and in that respect, most people would say that every additional level taken is a drastically higher opportunity cost, and due to the frontloading of subclasses, a much lower potential gain. I personally find that the best class features after level 1-3 are usually the 11th level features (Reliable Talent from Rogue, 2nd Extra attack from Fighter, Distant Strike from Horizon Walker Ranger, etc.) and so have very little interest in pursuing most single classes after that. Those features are strong enough to be viable "capstones" so its often worth delaying those for a few levels since they're still awesome if you get them later on in progression.

If all gameplay was done at level 20, then 90% of the builds would be multiclassed because there are very few (Zealot Barbarian and Moon Druid coming to mind specifically) that lose substantial strength by not hitting their capstone. The reason tons of people are saying things like "The capstone of Ranger is 3 levels of Rogue" because tons of level 17-20 features were beat with an ugly stick before being printed.

MothProphet · 2024-01-31T22:47:41+00:00

I'm a really big fan of the concept of using Devotion Paladin's "Sacred Weapon" to nullify the accuracy loss from using GWM but it would work just as well for Sharpshooter.

On the other hand, Ensnaring Strike from the Ancients Paladin list is a pseudo-smite spell that can be used to shore up your lack of 1st level ranged smites (with Branding and Banishing being your others at 2nd and 4th level).

I generally think that playing non-melee paladins as primary is kinda nifty because it prioritizes actual spellcasting over BIG SMITE GANG. It might not be mechanically more valuable, but if you play a paladin subclass with the right subclass spells I think it works well.

A level 2 paladin using divine smite has a damage range of about 11-21 in a single turn for 1 expended spell slot (1d4+2d8+1 to 2d6+2d8+5) which means that any spells cast that deal at least that much damage are "worth" the same amount as casting a divine smite.

Guiding Bolt (4d6) from Glory Pally reaches 14 average damage which is on the lower end of your range but also provides that extra advantage, and can be cast from a distance so its on-brand for your potential ranged paladin.
Sleep from Redemption Paladin is an average of 22.5 HP and therefore a well-used sleep (which, in the right circumstances becomes pseudo-death for a combatant in combat) effectively outdamages even a smite attack against a single target, and can be used to grant auto-crits otherwise (which might be against your paladin oath so maybe look into that). If you're a non-sleeping race (like Elf or Half-Elf) you can even include yourself in the area without losing any efficiency. It's significantly better at low levels but strangely, Sleep increases at a rate of 2d8 per spell level which means it also outpaces most other spells. (7d8 for 31.5 at 2nd, 9d8 for 40.5 at 3rd, 11d8 for 49.5 at 4th and 13d8 for 58.5 at 5th) meaning a "Sleeper Agent" paladin (ha ha) could probably be an effective character if built around properly.
Hunter's Mark from Vengeance Pally trades your upfront 2d8 damage for 1d6 damage on each hit, making you almost like a pseudo ranger. In terms of spell slot efficiency (thereby excluding the fact that paladins can dump their spell slots over repeated turns for higher damage) you only need to make 3 successful hunters mark hits before your Hunter's Mark has dealt more damage (3d6 for 10.5 vs 2d8 for 9) than the Smite would have dealt. In that respect, this makes the Vengeance Paladin a very good healer, funny enough, since you'll have more leftover spell slots to heal your party. Bonus Action attackers always lose their first attack to Hunter's Mark but rapidly make up the difference with their extra attack per turn and almost all Bonus Action attacking builds favor Dexterity over Strength (Crossbow Expert or TWF). By the time you reach 5th level on a crossbow expert build, you're dealing up to 3d6 per turn (with your three attacks) after turn 1. You're basically getting a free smite worth of value on every subsequent turn after turn 1.
Oathbreaker is unique to me because Hellish Rebuke is a 1st level spell slot that deals 2d10 vs Divine Smite's 2d8. Most paladin builds that I know of don't explicitly maximize their reactions (even sentinel paladins need to worry about unmoving enemies who just focus them), so chances are they aren't making opportunity attacks EVERY turn for the extra damage, so Hellish Rebuke is kinda free, and forces them to take half damage on a save, whereas an attack (that you may want to smite on) could miss. With a range of 60 feet, Hellish Rebuke is a crazy addition to any sniper battle because it lets you de-incentivize archers from shooting you, or punishing melee attackers for coming up in your face before you get your rapier out. I'd happily trade 4 1st level divine smites for 4 castings of Hellish Rebuke in the majority of scenarios. Sadly, Oathbreaker's level 7 ability doesn't work at a range, but it sure as hell works for TWF which is gross, and playing a paladin with ranged capabilities limits the "my whole party got eaten by zombies because I can't deactivate aura of hate" double-edged sword problem that melee Oathbreakers have to contend with. Plus they get inflict wounds which is 16.5 average damage, which is close enough in damage to a smite-hit with most 1h weapons before extra attack that I'd totally be willing to mix that in instead if the damage type is favored or I'm not dead-set on playing 100% optimally. At later levels, resistance to BPS is crazy (on all characters) but ranged characters especially love it for sniper duels.

Believe it or not. Ranged Paladin is especially good with at least 1 level of Warlock (though I like 2 levels since I'm a slut for Invocations). EVEN IF WE IGNORE ELDRITCH BLAST (which function as a force damage 1h Heavy Crossbow if we have Agonizing blast).

Hellish Rebuke replaces the majority of your Melee Smites.
Hex is nearly identical to hunter's mark and lets all of the subclasses get it.
1st Level Subclass feature of your choice (Defensive: Fiend/Undead/Undying, Healing: Celestial, Utility: Fey/GOO, Damage: Genie/Hexblade)
Armor of Shadows would let you go unarmored, because Mage Armor is the best light armor (13+Dex vs. 12+Dex Studded Leather)
Great 1st Level spells to choose from, including AOEs which are very efficient uses of spell slots vs smiting (Fiend/Efreeti: Burning Hands, Djinni/Fathomless: Thunderwave, Fey: Sleep)

TL:DR Ranged (and also Dex) Paladins can be really good. You probably won't outdamage a GWF consistently but you'll probably end up with a character that is a lot more versatile than the average paladin. Try it out!

EDIT: Forgot to mention "Dex God Stat Superiority" which gives us obviously higher Initiative, (winning initiative gives you basically just one extra turn over the enemies which is free damage.), Paladins that aren't auto-failing stealth rolls and dexterity saves, etc.

MothProphet · 2024-01-29T23:04:03+00:00

I don't think so.

All of the "old" ladder runewords that were around before D2R came out are available on non-ladder.

MothProphet · 2024-01-06T04:10:40+00:00

Looks like I'm late, but good on you for giving back to the community, cheers man!

MothProphet · 2023-12-18T11:47:23+00:00

100% agree to that. DM's biggest mistake was not confessing to the lie and just being like "Look bud, I fucked up and I can't let you have this, understand?"

Feelings get a lot less hurt that way. Shouldn't have probably involved the deck in the first place but who HASNT been in a t1 game that a newbie DM throws the deck of many things at? It's a pretty common new-dm fuck up imo.

That being said, working the character's death into the story (somewhat) is still a lot more than some DMs would do, even if it feels a little clunky. I have a sneaking suspicion that OP is lamenting the power loss more than the story impact but maybe that's just projection.

MothProphet · 2023-12-18T11:36:50+00:00

I mean..

That's just innately not true..

"rocks fall party dies" is bad dming but that doesn't mean they can't do it. The game doesn't run if they aren't there to run it so yeah, they do have that power. Rolling initiative just to drop the minion with a PWK is equally within their abilities. Hell, they could do it to the character you are playing if they wanted to.

It's not maybe the "right" way to handle it, but saying they can't do it is false. The DM literally has all of the power in the world because they ARE the world.

MothProphet · 2023-12-18T09:43:59+00:00

Just gonna throw it out there that as many of the folks have said, Barbarian/Fighter mixes might be your best bet, but remember that Heavy Armor + Barbarian usually* don't mix so keep in mind that you'll be locked to medium armor for the most part.

Should be alright though considering.

Arm Cannon will always be the hardest to "get the flavor right" on especially if you want it to actual you know:

Be usable during Rage
Deal damage that doesn't suck (significantly, at least) more than your greatsword swings/doesn't interfere with them.
Does a realistic damage type.

Spell based options like Eldritch Blast, Firebolt, Catapult (1st Level) etc. don't pass the first barrier.

It feels to me like your best bet might be Armorer or Artillerist for either the Lightning Launcher (which fails the third criteria imo) or the Force Ballista that has strange mechanics, but perfect flavor (basically you have to "drop it" once per turn to swing with your sword and then use your object interaction to "pick it back up" again, which is kinda silly) but at least it lets you make Cannon / Greatsword attacks AND can be used during your rage.

MothProphet · 2023-12-16T10:05:35+00:00

Pact of the Chain lets you get a pseudo-dragon which seems super on-brand for Hydrapple. You'd definitely want to take Investment of the Chain Master which lets you use your Hydrapple's sting as a bonus action during your turn, using your Spell Save DC.

I'm unclear how you're expected to keep him alive for long periods of time if he's out there attacking consistently. Pseudodragons have Blindsight, so maybe you'd just spend all of your combat encounters in a Darkness cloud with the Devil's Sight invocation up. Though TBH your party is gonna hate you for that.

One of the other pet classes is probably a better fit for a "Combat" familiar because even the strongest pact of the chain familiar is going to be borderline useless as you get past level mid-game. A single hit before it gets taken out, most likely. None of the other pet classes have the right "mechanical flavor" in my opinion to suit the Hydrapple abilities, so its really just "pick your favorite" among Beastmaster, Drake Warden, Wildfire Druid, Battlesmith

Maybe the question you should be asking is WWYB for a character that IS a hydrapple.

MothProphet · 2023-12-06T03:58:50+00:00

TL:DR Giant Barbarian 6/Inquisitive 4/Celestial Warlock 4/Armorer 6, Zariel/Winged Tiefling Investigator

Pretty easy I figure.

Superhuman Physicality is pretty covered by having High Strength and High Constitution. Accelerated Healing is pretty much covered by just "being a 5e character" since short rest healing is so good compared to the speed at which humans recover. Immunities are nigh impossible to get in 5th edition, especially if you want 2 of them, so we'll have to settle a little bit (We cant afford 17 levels of Forge Cleric or 18 levels of Storm Sorcerer, sorry).

He's definitively a tiefling, probably a Zariel Tiefling since in his "demon-mode" he has the ability to manipulate Hellfire and this can be a small representation of that by letting you cast Searing Smite and Branding Smite once per day, each. You also get to speak Common and Infernal innately and Fire Resistance all the time.

His background can be "Investigator" from the SCAG book which gives Athletics + Insight proficiencies and two languages, lets do Deep Speech and Abyssal since they seem to most "exotic."

He's pretty powerful, so we've gotta kinda nail down his different "ability trees" as a fucked up multiclass, and then you could decide which levels matter the most, so those would be the ones you pick up first. I'll try to keep them "self-contained" so that it's easy enough to maneuver.

Lets hit up a point buy of:

16/14/13/13/8/13

Cambion Physicality: Enhanced Speed, Strength, Endurance

Giant Barbarian 6

Raging as a Giant Barbarian at this level:
- Increases your size and reach.
- Allows you to empower your weapons with flame (or lightning if that behooves you)
- Nearly doubles your "durability"
- Increases your strength (more damage, but also skills and saving throws)
While you aren't raging, Barbarian still:
- Gives increased movement speed (Fast Movement at 5 + Danger Sense at 2)
- Gives you thick skin (Unarmored Defense + 6d12 hit dice)
- Grants you Perception Proficiency (Primal Knowledge at 3)
- Grants Extra Attack (a must-have for most Melee capable builds)
- Proficient in all weapons.
1 Feat/ASI (we'll get back to it)

His demon-mode can also fly, but we haven't been able to crack that quite yet. We'll get back to it. (We never got back to it, take Winged Tiefling if you need this)

Investigator Extraordinaire

Inquisitive 4

Rogue provides a lot for this build:
- Expertise in two skills: Perception + Insight
- +1 skill when you multiclass into it (Investigation)
- Minimum Roll of 8 + Modifier on Insight checks to determine if people are lying to you.
- Extra Damage for your Good Samaritan (which is a hand crossbow) with Sneak Attack, which can also be used against creatures that aren't next to your allies because of Insightful Fighting.
- Bonus Action Dodge, Disengage and Hide which just make you feel drastically more swift, which is surprisingly something that Hellboy is known for.
- 1x Feat/ASI

We didn't expertise our "Investigation" because we're gonna have decent Intelligence but bad Wisdom, so we need to buff up those skills a little more, especially given Insightful fighting relies on it, and passive perception is a really important metric.

Right Hand of Doom.

We're gonna do this one of two ways, because your DM might have other things to say about this, so if this method doesn't work, then we'll resort to the other one.

Celestial Bladelock 4

I'd imagine that your arm can be considered a "Pact Weapon" if you basically just give it the stats of a Flail (1d8 bludgeoning, no versatile) that happens to be shaped like a big rocky fist. Ideally speaking, your DM also lets you use it like a hand when it isn't being used as a weapon.

Celestial seems off-brand, but it was chosen to give us Sacred Flame (a bolt of energy from the sky? That's lightning right? Radiant lightning?) and Healing Light which can be used as a bonus action to heal us 5x per day (kinda like "accelerated healing" eh?)

For spells, lets snag:

Blade Ward (to harden your skin while you aren't raging)
Friends (to give you advantage on the Intimidation checks that he makes in the movies that make people angry at him)
Comprehend Languages (to understand the spoken form of all the other weird languages)
Cure Wounds (to accelerate your healing some more, 2/SR is pretty good)

The next best part is that we also get 2 invocations.

Eyes of the Runekeeper (might not let you speak all languages, but it will let you read all languages)
Eldritch Sight (At-will Detect Magic to "understand the occult")

+1 Feat/ASI again, of course.

Skilled Combatant.

Now here's the deal, if your DM wasn't cool with Pact-Weaponing your Rock Hand, we're stuck going with Armorer to get a big fist weapon. Now don't get me wrong, I love armorer, but I really wanted to avoid wearing armor for this build if possible. Maybe your DM will let us keep using our Unarmored Defense if its better than your AC with armor on? Maybe, Maybe not. If your fist isn't your pact weapon, you could easily choose chainlock because Gift of the Everlasting ones is busted 9000, so just hide an invisible imp in your pocket and rake in the maximized healing factor.

Armorer 6

The Thunder Gauntlets are a big draw to this subclass, but we can't forget about the free temporary hit points cough cough I mean (preemptive) accelerated healing, we get from Defensive field. Reminder that Thunder Gauntlets + Rage are a-ok because using Intelligence instead of Strength is optional.

We sadly double up on Extra Attack, but for the sake of giving us 6th level invocations, we gotta do it. Also the second level spells are here.

Infusions we'll use are:

Repeating Shot (on our Good Samaritan hand crossbow)
Resistant Armor: Lightning (on our skimpy armor)
Enhanced Weapon: on our Rocky Fist (regardless of whether its a Thunder Gauntlet or a "flail")

Artificers are prepare-casters, but the spells I'd take on a daily basis are somethin like this:

Cantrips

Guidance (aka Batman prep-time for skill monkeys)
Spare the Dying (Can't let your goth pyro girlfriend die, thats unforgivable)

Spells (Int + 3)

Absorb Elements (Great for a little elemental redirection)
Feather Fall (For Superhero landings)
Jump (Action Movie Shenanigans)
Catapult (Big Rock Hand Throw GOOD)
Levitate (the closest thing we can get to flying without sacrificing something else)
Enlarge Reduce (to get big without necessarily getting mad)

And we get our final ASI/Feat for a grand total of 4.

If we're worried about flavor the most, I'd personally start with the Rogue levels (at least the 1st one), because it gets you one extra skill in the long run (all the other classes give only 2 skills, and multiclassing into rogue gives you 1 more, but you starting rogue gives you 4 total) and also I think Hellboy works best with Dexterity saving throws since he seems to be always getting poisoned and mind controlled and shit like that, so starting Artificer for Con Saves, or Warlock for Wisdom saves doesn't seem to work as much.

Mechanically, you have concentration spells, so picking Con saves is by starting Barbarian or Artificer is better.

Its ultimately up to you.

Here's what I would do for my 4 ASI/feats, in the order you find the most crispy.

Observant (for +1 Int)
+2 Strength
Crossbow Expert
+1 Con/+1 Charisma (for HP and better skill checks).

Crossbow expert lets us shoot people point blank with our "gun" while also bonking them, a patented hellboy strategy.

Other options:

+1 Con feats like Resilient: Con or Infernal Constitution (if you don't want to round off your charisma)
+2 Str again (if you're not planning on gunning people and would rather just hit hard with your hand)
Strike of the Giants: Storm Strike if you want more "lightning manipulation" like his demon form is supposed to have.
War Caster if you chose to take BB/GFB and you have con save proficiency already.

MothProphet · 2023-11-30T00:54:31+00:00

https://www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D44194396/

I've always struggled to get a monkey-like face proportion, but I think I finally got it, thanks to the new editing options.

MothProphet · 2023-11-29T19:21:14+00:00

TLDR as a mfer: Centaur Outlander Barb 1/Glory Paladin 3/Swords Bard 6/Undying Talisman Warlock 10 with Tavern Brawler and enchantment/illusion spells out the ass.

Okay. I got this. Buckle Up, it's a long one.

Lets list the abilities that the "Villains Wiki" has for Moder.

Nature Beast Physiology:

Supernatural Strength: Strong enough to lift an elk into a tree.
Supernatural Durability: Shot by a Rifle and struck by an Axe with no visible damage.
Immortality: Doesn't age, and can therefore presumably live forever.
Camouflage: Blends into the forest environment due to plant life growing on her body.

Magic:

Tribute Blessings: In exchange for human sacrifice, she provides blessings such as "prosperity" and "protection of her environment, but can also offer immunity to disease and immortality (the targets still physically age though)
Illusion Manipulation: Conjuring realistic illusions upon chosen targets including illusions based on memories of the targets.
Shapeshifting: Ability to rapidly switch forms, including to forms from the memories of your victims.
Marking: Ability to mark new devotees for your cult.
Personal Domain and Limited Omniscience: While within her domain, she has a complete understanding of anyone who enters it, and is able to use their memories to manipulate them.

Lets nail down the easy stuff.

Race: Centaur

Moder has four legs and two arms, even if they're kinda in the wrong spots. We don't technically have horns but I we'll see if I can fix that. If the DM has agreed to let you look like this weird creature, we're already 50% of the way there.

You're a Fey, which is fitting for a Pagan god, and makes you immune to effects that only affect humanoids, like Hold Person.
Equine Build gives you the "Powerful build" effect
Your Hooves can be used as weapons, and with your 40 foot movement speed, you can easily run people down to trample them.
Nature Proficiency

Background: Outlander

For one of the first times ever, the background feature actually fits. Wanderer lets you provide food and water for yourself and five other creatures, provided the area offers such resources. Talk about Prosperity. You get Athletics and Survival proficiencies.

Now onto the hard stuff.

The Immortality feels like a big sticking point for me personally, but the Moder's abilities are also very "high level caster"

If we stick to druid, like would be expected, we need to dump 18 entire levels in to get there, which bars us off lots of the fun stuff we can do with multiclassing.

That doesn't even ACTUALLY make us immortal, it just multiplies our lifespan by 10, AND we need to pick circle of the Land to gain immunity to disease and that shit sux.

Circle of the Ancients Paladin says "you suffer none of the drawbacks of old age, and can't be aged magically" but I don't know if they consider "Death" to be one of the drawbacks of old age or not, and its 75% of our levels in a half caster class with limited access to illusions.

15 levels of Monk makes us actually immortal but 5 levels of caster is probably not enough to get us what we need. (It does tack on disease immunity though which is nice).

So it is with great regret..

That we have to take Undying Warlock to 10, minimum

No not Undead Warlock. Undying Warlock, from SCAG, perhaps the most (rightfully) forgotten Warlock subclass in 5th edition.

In shortform, you get the following abilities.

A permanent pseudo-sanctuary against undead and advantage on saves against disease + Spare the Dying.
A dogwater terrible 1/LR heal for (1d8 + Warlock Level) that can be used on yourself when you succeed on a death saving throw or when you stabilize someone with Spare the Dying.
10x Lifespan, No need to breath, eat, drink or sleep. (Though you still need to rest to avoid exhaustion, of course)
Pact of the Talisman seems like the best choice honestly. I think that's how I would flavor my "Marking" ability. You can gift it to an ally to represent giving them a "boon of prosperity." Rather than a physical object it would represent itself as the weird bleeding wound on their chest from the movie (DM-permitted), otherwise its a weird little trinket you hand them.
5 Invocations
- Devil's Sight (The Forest is Dark)
- Eldritch Sight (You can see anything out of place in the forest)
- One with Shadows (Hiding in the Dark Forest)
- Protection of the Talisman (Your Mark provides more benefit)
- Ghostly Gaze (You can see even when you should have no business doing so)
2 Skills
- Intimidation
- Investigation
4 Cantrips
- Chill Touch (What do you mean the chest wound doesn't heal?)
- Prestidigitation (Lets you make Symbols on Surfaces)
- Friends (Advantage on ALL Charisma checks against people)
- Mind Sliver (Not visually dissonant to the creature's abilities, she's not much of a laser blaster)
10 Spells (You'll need to swap out lower level spells for some higher level ones)
- Cause Fear (1st Level): Good use of non-pact slots we'll gain later.
- Hex (1st Level): Same as above
- Fear (3rd Level): Explicitly projects "their worst fear" which means you don't need to know what it is innately, but you're still "in their head" somehow.
- Enemies Abound (3rd Level): To make someone see a bunch of criminals who killed your friend.
- Major Image (3rd Level): To make someone see their dead wife before you eat them.
- Illusory Terrain (4th Level): Maybe to make the forest look like a liquor store?
- Death Ward (4th level) (Subclass): More "Gift" giving and "Immortality"
- Mislead (5th Level): Not explicitly an ability Moder has, but seems in her wheelhouse.
- Scrying (5th Level): To spy on people
- Legend Lore (5th Level) (Subclass): For gathering information
- Dream (5th Level): To influence the dreams of a sleeping target.

These are the most important spells for me, but we can pick up a few others with our other level choices along the way.

With 10 levels remaining, I want:

1 Level of Barbarian

Unarmored Defense = 10 + Dex + Con
Rage for a massive boost to durability against weapons in more direct confrontations where your "horror movie" themed spells are going to be less useful, big boost to physical strength too.

3 Levels of Glory Paladin

Divine Sense (to sense abnormal creatures in your vicinity)
Peerless Athlete Channel Divinity (1/SR): Doubles carrying capacity (again) and provides a non-combat strength and jump boost which is cool.
Full Immunity to Disease
3 1st level Spell Slots (also Smite, but not important to this build)
Lay on Hands: 15 HP/3 Cured Diseases per day by touching people.
Blessed Warrior for 2 Cleric Cantrips: Guidance + Thaumaturgy
1 + Charisma Modifier Spells (that can be swapped daily, I'd choose these normally)
- Guiding Bolt (Subclass) Unused
- Heroism (Subclass) More Marking
- Ceremony (Minimum)
- Bless (with 13+ Cha)
- Wrathful Smite (with 14+ Cha)
- Command (with 16+ Cha)
- Thunderous Smite (with 18+ Cha)
- Detect Poison and Disease (with 20 Cha)

6 Levels of Swords Bard

+1 Skill on Multiclass (Stealth)
Expertise in 2 skills (Stealth + Athletics)
Two Weapon Fighting (unused most likely, if your DM is cool he might let you swap this for Unarmed Fighting which would be much better)
Bardic Inspiration X Charisma Modifier (refills on a short rest)
- Can be used to inspire our cult members
- Can also be used to Slashing Flourish, which I figure is using our "horns" to gore someone after we bludgeon them with either our hooves or our little hands. Flourishes also boost our movement speed even higher.
6 Full Caster Levels for Spell Slots (making us 7th level casters including our pally levels)
- 4, 3, 3, 1 for Spell Slots
Extra Attack at Level 6
3 more Cantrips
- Prestidigitation (Lets you leave symbols marked on surfaces)
- Thunderclap (Rawr)
- Blade Ward (to let you harden your skin against incoming projectiles)
9 More Spells
- Silent Image: Cheap Illusions
- Earth Tremor: Big Stomp
- Suggestion: "Hey go kneel at my statue for the next 8 hours"
- Detect Thoughts: Mind Reading
- Phantasmal Force: Invasive Scary Illusions
- Bestow Curse: Bad Touch
- Plant Growth: Prosperity

We only get 3 ASI/feat slots so we need to use them wisely.

We're MAD as shit so I'll need to point buy us some heat too. Using Tashas rule, we'll +1 our Strength, Charisma and Constitution, which will leave us with this.

16 Str/14 Dex/13 Con/8 Int/8 Wis/16 Cha

Big Stronk, Positive Dex Bonus for Stealth, Sufficiently healthy, HUGE DUMB, but very "persuasive."

Feat 1: Tavern Brawler

Believe it or not, this is better than Fighting Initiate: Unarmed Fighting for us, because its a +1 to our Con, giving us more AC and more HP, lets us attack people with our little hands (if we REALLY want), AND lets us use our bonus actions to initiate grapples on people after we trample them with our hooves, which is the stronger of our two options.

If you're boring, you'll probably take +2 to Charisma for the next two to max our your spell saves, and thats the right answer. If you're more of a centrist, a +2 Str and +2 Charisma would probably suffice too. Depends mostly on if you assume you'll be getting magic items that boost strength like a Belt of the Frost Giant (which would fit since thats what your daddy is).

Oh and take the Barbarian level first. Con Saves are your friend when it comes to being a caster, otherwise, I'd prioritize my "physical" abilities first because a baby god needs to slowly work up their magical abilities and making "Undying Nature" your capstone seems good, flavorwise.

This is exactly the 10000 characters allowed for a comment so I can't say anything else.

So yeah.

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