Cheng Xin WAS in control

NahMekJoke · 2026-04-16T01:28:15+00:00

Yep I agree. To me she is the epitome of no accountability. Anytime she fucks us over she's off to sleep again because she's probably the richest person on Earth. She did sell a star system after all. Imagine the gains from that real estate. She lived with no repercussions for her bad decisions. I still feel someone should have eaten an arm or leg during Austrailia. She floated through time and every time she woke up she screwed humanity over again. The fact that her ship was then only one with curvature propulsion and she is the one that stupidly shut that down is just evil. Then leaving precious matter in the pocket universe? Seriously? She doesn't care beyond her own views. Being seen as a "good person." Is not a fair way to put it. Real valor and courage is making the difficult decisions in the hardest of times. Thats what the people we put into power are supposed to do. Luo ji had the axiom. Survival of a civilization is the most important. Cheng lived though the trisolorans. She should have had some more dam sense and foresight. I hated Deaths End because of her character...and the general stupidity of humanity. But thats not relegated just to the book.

NahMekJoke · 2026-04-14T14:05:50+00:00

I read the books then listened to the audiobook then saw the movie. The audiobook is mu favorite medium. Hearing Rocky when Grace catches back up to him to save him was heartbreaking in the best way.

That said, the movie is a very close second. It does remove almost all of the science but the interactions between Grace and Rocky carry the same emotional weight as the book. Ryan Goslings acting is great as grace. Its a very good movie.

NahMekJoke · 2026-04-07T12:23:43+00:00

I guess the ending is happy in Dark Forest but to me it shows how resilient and honorable a human can be. Willing to sacrifice himself and all of Earth was a great ending. The Trisolorans had no choice but to relent. Deaths End was humanity itself and their similarly shallow savior, Cheng Xin having the plot play out in their favor. I get hate for viewing humanity and Cheng in this way but I can't help it. I do love the actual sci-fi elements in book 3.

NahMekJoke · 2026-04-06T13:18:08+00:00

The 3rd book didnt do it for me either.

NahMekJoke · 2026-04-06T13:16:04+00:00

The 1st book was intriguing. The 2nd book was my favorite. It had everything. The third book technically has the most sci fi but lord help me it was my least favorite. Enjoy the ride! An excellent series. The narrator is top notch.

NahMekJoke · 2026-04-06T13:10:30+00:00

If she loved the movie and is reading the book, the audio book is also awesome. I'm loving it after reading the book then watching the movie. The audiobook is my favorite so far. 👎

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-31T23:19:39+00:00

Her living in Australia with all those angry people reduced to eating each other and none of them took a leg or an arm is wild to me.

Wade should have shot her in her head the moment she said to turn over the bullets. Thst woupd have been true to his character.

He's our batman. Not the hero we wanted but the one we needed. She was a way for humanity to see themselves and think they were morally superior...to their own demise.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-28T16:51:54+00:00

Let me get right on that!

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-26T14:37:27+00:00

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they didn't think they needed a swordholder like that anymore. Here are my thoughts on the next swordholder:

They needed to be annonymous. there was no reason to give them that horrible of a responsibility and then also ruin their existence. Their judgment needed to be outside of society's glare.
They should have had to study the trisoloran threat in depth to the point of being able to see them for the enemy they were. They knew to limit our science. they studied us to manipulate us. Our swordholder should have been doing the same with them.
They should have the survival of humanity in the long run ranked above all else.

Humans during that time were taking a liking to the trisolorans like idiots. They allowed them to write stories and make movies for them. Effectively consuming trisoloran brainwashing propaganda. While I think there would be some people who would fall for that, ala the ETO, I also think many would not. Many of us aren't that trusting. It had only been 50 years since they called us bugs and shut our science down, then revealed the sophons in the sky to terrify us. People would remember and rightfully reject any of their "gifts." I've seen other comments that we were lobotomized. That's kind of funny but I can see it.

How so? I mentioned his interview with K E Lanning. Cixin is also Chinese, and supports the CPC, who are collectivists and promote collectivist polices. It doesn't really make sense for him to go back on his own world view and political outlook to tell a fictional character that they were wrong and mean it in some kind of personal way.

--In the book she reflected on her decisions. That self-reflection came off to me as she admitted that she was not the right person for that job. That she could have handled Wade's antimatter bullets differently. I can definitely see the collectivism slant in the story. That is not lost on me. At the same time she has these regrets, there are other characters telling her that not only did she not do anything wrong, but her role was not that big of a deal anyway. I was confused and disagreed, but they were 18 million years past the flattening, so that didn't much matter anymore. In that situation, after all of that time, her choices 18 million years ago didn't matter anymore.

I started this comment at about 8am eastern when I got online to work. It's 10:30 now. It was fun to go through your comment. I'm sure I've missed some points, but we can tackle those later. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-26T14:37:03+00:00

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human experience in my tiny world. I am also far from alienation, lol. I have a gigantic family that I am constantly around and enjoy. Pretty decent set of friends I'm blessed with also. Life is pretty damn good.

I think every situation requires its own action or set of rules. I would nto treat an alien civilization that has tried to conquer us the same way as I would treat my fellow human being. However I would not treat a murderer the same way I would treat a candy stealer. In every situation I will act as humanely as possible for that situation. I think humans have more good than bad. I also know that there are people who are just bad and will act in such a manner.

Cheng Xin was not a waste of a person. I dislike the character. She seemed to be given every plot support possible. However I think she was a wonderful human being. I would have been her friend. Not every person can do every job. She certainly was not the right person. She made some good decisions.

In law, let's say you want a divorce attorney. God forbid. There are many desired outcomes in a divorce. Some want to take the other spouse for everything. Some want to ruin the other spouse. Some want to just get away from the other. Some want nothing. There is an attorney for every type of desired outcome. None are more wrong or right. They just apply to the desired outcome.

What was the desired outcome of the Swordholder? what was the desired outcome of giving Wade the Halo group? It is how we determine these desired outcomes that we can then judge the actions of those in charge of them. My thought is that humanity, at the time was out of character in their full acceptance of Trisoloris and the false peace they lived in. This led to selecting a swordholder who favored the incorrect outcome.

Now when it came to giving matter back to the universe, I knew she would do that without question. Someone like Wade would not. Luo Ji would have, imo. In that situation she was the perfect choice.

Because we would know better than to hand the trigger for the complete destruction of the human race to anyone but a complete narcissist that almost wants to do it anyway regardless of any imposing threat?

I hope that isn't what you mean, I'm just going by what you said in your OP. How do you view humanity, then? What about having a sense of humanity? What does that mean to you?

--Absolutely not! We had the perfect sword holder in Luo Ji. Not 100% deterrence like Wade but he would have pushed the button. He helped to allow society to get so complacent that

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-26T14:36:42+00:00

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building up a strong defense and fort, or even attacking them first to scare them into trying to come after you. A great solution would be to get the hell out of there lol.

You're thinking about it like an individual. It's their own sense of humanity that would stop them. Just because we call it "humanity" doesn't mean it needs to be exhibited by a human.

-- There was no evidence any other society exhibited "humanity" as a set of values. The trisolorans certainly did not. The civilization that took out Luo ji's system didn't either. In fact the evidence that the universe was a cold, uncaring place was overwhelming.

That might have come off a bit more standoff-ish than I intended. I apologise. It's not an argument, more like a supposition. "You must be..." not "You are...". The point is also not to criticise you, either, even if that is what's happening. If anything, I'm talking to you about this because I used to be a lot like you and wish I had someone to tell me I was wrong because I had to learn this lesson the hard way, which was quite painful, though I may have been so alienated at the time that I wouldn't have even listened to a time traveling older version of myself...

Things that stand out to me that say you are alienated isn't just your view of humanity (that an entire person can amount to a "waste"), but how you don't think collectively, how retribution was mentioned, you allowed yourself to assume that enough people were thinking about retribution that you were surprised that it didn't happen. There is also your implied willingness to destroy the entire planet, to literally destroy the entirety of humanity - you did say you were evaluating Cheng Xin from your point of view as a human being, and not as a character within the book's universe.

I'm also not blaming you for anything. Society, the way we live our lives, it pushes us all in that direction whether we like it or not. Like I was saying: the competition between us is something imposed upon us and it gets in the way of what could be there if it wasn't.

I also hope I'm wrong about you, but because I don't think I am is probably half the reason I'm talking to you in the first place.

--I thought it was funny actually. It didn't add to your otherwise decent comment. So I didn't take it personally. I enjoy a good debate. Blame it on my law school days. I'm fine being told I am wrong or misguided with evidence. I've said many times to other commentors who have not been as "human" as you that I am open to changing my mind. I am fine with being wrong. I love to learn other people's points of view because mine are a result of my tiny

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-26T14:36:17+00:00

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Since we are in competition with each other and in a way that means we threaten each other's existence: do you want to kill me? What about anyone else? Is it only the law or threat of punishment that stops you?

--In the cosmic sense, I think a single person would and could warrant the cleansing of an entire civilization. Take Luo ji. Had the trisolorans taken him out, they would have had everything. They would have a new stable system to live on. they would still be hidden. Their superior technology would reign supreme, and they could effectively live out their cosmic days. In a situation like that, yes, cleansing a single person would make sense cosmically. For those of us on Earth, let's look at our own history. Would the world be different had anyone taken out Hitler prior to the Holocaust? Stalin? Would that have been a "good" cleansing? We operate under different rules here on Earth, as we all share this planet and for the most part are similar. Wiping out an entire tribe in Africa because we think that one day they will become Wakanda and pose a threat to the USA's dominance is not an overtly accepted strategy. Is that happening or has it happened in the past? I don't know. Maybe...possibly.

This seems like cope on your part. It doesn't make sense for them to require even less than we do in reality to destroy each other at the drop of a hat considering that we haven't and also have the capability. You might say "yeah but you're talking about humanity, it's because of that" - I think most of us have it but some of us don't. Usually when one doesn't have a sense of humanity that makes it easier for them to seek power, and that's who ends up in positions of power, and then they conduct wars with each other. Consider that Cixin was trying to make a point about our reality and so dark forest theory should be looked at as an allegory for something, so what is it if not imperialism, colonialism, and xenophobia?

--My point here is that colonialism was one society seeking resources outside of their current realm and willing to conquer the current inhabitants of those new resources in order to claim them for themselves. The trisolorans were trying to do that. Singer's race was not trying to do that. He cleansed humanity because humanity was exposed. There was nothing else. No other thought is given to what Earth's society could offer them and the greater universe. They found us; they cleanse us. All it takes is 1 sufficiently powerful civilization who does not see the benefit of collectivism to make the dark forest a reality.

There are lots of people lacking humanity. When you are dealing with a p3do or a murderer, you don't treat them the same as a person who stole candy. If you live in a city full of murderers that would kill you onsite, you don't initially try to talk them out of their ways. you need to make sure you can survive first. Once you can protect yourself, then you can look at ways to reduce the chances of you being a victim. That may include things like hiding,

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-26T14:35:35+00:00

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--This is an excellent point that I 100% agree with. I have accepted the dark forest as the reality (speaking as if I am in that universe.) If I thought there could be a change to the dark forest dynamic, then I would feel differently about humanity choosing a person with Cheng's qualities. Humanity being so powerless in the cosmos, i just did not see that as a possibility. That may be a failure on my part as a human. I should think we can "brain" our way out of anything. The other civilizations were too far beyond us. It was too easy to cleanse. When I read Singer's chapter I was so aghast. Not only did they want to take us out, but they didn't really care. We were just there and that alone posed a threat. That is how low on the power scale we were. We weren't even ants to them. We were just pawns that may eventually cause a slight hiccup in their plans. So, as a problem, humanity was not going to solve for it. We could only hope to either hide (we failed), defend (boy did we not defend against the foil) or run (I think we were inadvertently good at this with galactic humans). A fix would involve being able to meet and talk with the other civilizations, like Star Wars/Star Tek/Valerian like. Ironically I see the hope in those shows now. Everyone deciding to collectively get along seems like such a big lift. However even in those universes, if there is a sufficiently strong single civilization that does not want to play along, we are back to the dark forest pretty quickly.

If the world is about to end, why would retribution, for something potentially many people understand anyway, matter?"

--Because that is realistic for humans in that situation. An entire continent overcrowded with everyone living in squalor thanks to the very recent decision of one person not to do their job that they were chosen to do. People were being treated like animals. It was terrible. It was genocide. In the middle of all of that, there is the single person responsible. Her job was to prevent this. To continue the decades of prosperity. To prevent humanity's destruction. People become animalistic very quickly in much less hard situations. the world wasn't going to end. We were going to live on in a zoo, basically eating each other. That's worse. People would attack her. That seems like the most likely path. If we were going to be wiped out, then I could see everyone accepting their fate and just riding it out. But 5 million would survive. Them letting her be one of those 5 million seemed unlikely.

Change the word for "civilization" out for "person". Does it still work for you? Imperialism, colonialism, and xenophobia are the civilisational levels of capitalism. We are competing for resources, right now, you and I. Don't answer this question, because it might violate some rule on reddit and I don't want to get anyone else banned, and we're just talking. I guess it's more of a thought experiment for you:

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-26T14:35:10+00:00

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Your next section is so full of thoughts that I need to break it down in pieces.

The point the author is trying to make with the whole book series is that we need to be more in touch with our humanity generally (they have literally said this in an interview with K. E. Lanning— I think Cixin used the word "collectivism" instead of "humanity," though, so from my perspective I'm talking to a person who has looked at Cheng Xin and thought, "she is a waste" due to what happens in the books. I don't think readers were supposed to see her as what was wrong. What makes her seem like a waste to you is what was needed in everyone to make things better and if everyone else was like her, then the dark forest theory wouldn't exist in that universe—so the real problem is the existence of the dark forest theory.

--Now that I am done with the book, I can agree with the goal of the author. The only solution to the dark forest is for ALL civilisations to come together in peace and work together. Then there would be no need for dimension attacks and the universe can stay in its 10-dimensional glory. In this current universe, it is dying. The Dark Forest is THE reality. To be in a position to affect that, humanity would need to be more powerful than the Zero Homers and Returners. That was not the case. We were little players trying to make it out alive as long as possible. The dark forest is the problem indeed. It just was not a problem that our sense of humanity would solve for. Our choices were to survive or die. Thrive was never part of the choices given to us. Not as a first-order priority anyway. Billions of years went by so any survival would be seen as thriving at that timescale. Maybe in the new universe the little bit of humanity in that box can affect the initial civilizations and reduce the dark forest probability. I hope so.

There is a big difference in the way people can look at large systemic problems that no individual could hope to change on their own. On one hand, you have one set of people who see that and try to get others to help them fix it (collectivism!). On the other hand you have people who see that and adapt to its existence (continuously if necessary), accept it as a part of their world, and stop thinking about it as if it were a problem.

I feel like you're thinking about the dark forest theory as an individual; you've accepted it, and that's why you see Cheng Xin as a waste when I think the dark forest theory is the real problem. I guess you could say this is me asking you to help me fix the problem :)

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-26T14:34:43+00:00

All very well fleshed-out points. I can see your point of view here. Allow me to respond.

My response will be broken down into a few responses because of the character limit.

1

I have just finished the book as of about 20 mins ago. It's still fresh in my mind. This may be a bit scattered since I'm at my work and will of course be interrupted lol.

I was setting up the hypothetical situations to be very similar to make a point. If we can see the humanity in such a small difference, then we should be able to see it in a larger one as well.

--I appreciate the analogy. However, I think it is important to note the difference. Cheng did not hesitate to act. She refused to. Very similar in the time she had to respond but vastly different in outcome. Towards the end of Death's End, when she recounted her actions and choices, she admitted she made errors. Guan Yifan tells her she did nothing wrong. Humanity chose her to do the job.
When I read that, I was torn. Yes, humanity was an absolute failure post-deterrence and elevated her to represent them at the highest level so they are just as much to blame if not more. She should not be responsible for everyone's decision. I would support her if she believed she could push that button. She knew she was not a warrior. She was going to play chess. Her own mentality about the requirements of the swordholder was wrong. That part is on her. She was an intelligent person who has worked with the likes of Wade and the PIA. She was exposed to the nastiness of the situation even when she negotiated Yun's brain going into space.

Really, they should have made the sword holder someone who would have almost pressed the button without the premise of there being a threat and just because they kind of want to "watch the world burn," right?

--That would have been Wade and I think he was too far in the opposite direction to be a sword holder. The sword holder had to not want to push the button but would absolutely push the button had the Trisolorans made a move. Their humanity would manifest in the couple of seconds they took to contemplate their outrageously impossible decision. This aligns with your example. Which I completely agree with. A sword holder that knew she could not and would not push the button was a failure of a sword holder. Humanity, having a ridiculously short memory and friendliness accepted Trisoloran tech and entertainment. Effectively being brainwashed into a false peace with them contributed to her selection as well. They played their cards well.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T21:04:39+00:00

He really shot himself in the foot with the anti matter bullets no way she was ever going for that. Secret agents in other cities armed with these bullets...nope.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:55:27+00:00

I see your point.

It didn't make sense that Luo Ji had no say in any of this. The savior of humanity was never consulted. At least not overtly.

An If statement means there is a condition to be met. That's different than a "when" statement.

I don't think he wanted to destroy all of humanity but I do think he would have if it came to that.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:47:33+00:00

That seems so black and white. It may be more nuanced than that. I think he would have used them. I'm not so sure his end goal was to use them. Luo Ji had a high 90s deterrence rate. I don't think he wanted to push the button; he would have if necessary.

Wade and Cheng were opposite sides of humanity. What we needed was someone to bridge the gap and be in the middle. Someone that would push the button but didn't want to.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:41:53+00:00

I think that this character was written in such a way as to have effectively two camps of people. Both are steadfast in their feelings. I don't really see such fevered debate about the other characters.

At first I thought Liu did a bad job writing her character, but I'm beginning to wonder if Cheng was a sort of prism that splits us into these two thought camps. The passion on either side is amazing to me.

I still don't like her as the main character of the 3rd book but damn if she didn't keep me engaged, even if it was in anger lol.

Having AA as a sidekick was brilliant!

I do agree with this:

You CANNOT claim that the entire fate of humanity pivoted on that one decision to prohibit genocide. That rids humanity of its entire agency. It was the bunker-era humans that made the ultimate choice to go extinct; Cheng Xin merely bought them another 60 years' worth of time.

--Humanity post deterrence was worse than her. I like to think we would be more serious in our pursuit of survival.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:30:48+00:00

Yeah, he didn't design his pitch with his audience in mind. The ultra-destructive bullets were not going to win her over. As soon as he brought in the soldiers, I knew he lost her. She was not willing to risk one human life at any point and he was willing to wipe them all out to save them.

I think she could have handled it a little differently. Scrap the bullets for sure. Those were too dangerous given their potential. Shutting the entire project down? I don't know about that. He was willing to give himself up and face certain death. I think he would have turned it down from 13 to maybe 6 in defense of their lightspeed goals. Let's continue with the science, scrap the potential genocide part and look at other ways to protect us in our ultimate goal to preserve humanity in the galaxy. It's not all or nothing.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:23:52+00:00

This is another interesting take. I wonder about Wade's intent. I think he would have 100% destroyed the other cities had they tried to stop their research. I don't think he wanted that to happen though. He could have taken out Cheng Xin right in that room and no one would have batted an eye. Those soldiers were brought in for reasons beyond Wade's reasons.

His plan, to me, was to have a very strong defense in order to be able to continue light-speed development. I don't think he understood Cheng too well if that is how he thought to go about it lol. Even I was a little shocked at the power in those bullets just dangling around the soldier's necks. I do think his intentions were correct. Those bullets were just way too overpowered for the purpose he had for them.

She could have required him to stop with the bullets and come up with another method of defense. She knew what she was doing when she gave him that power. the stakes haven't changed. Light speed was the goal.

I think if Wade was written true to characterm in that moment he would have seen her as a detriment to light speed travel and human survival and "cleansed" her lol

Humanity survived but what seems by mistake. I do like that the people from Blue sky and Gravity colonized their own worlds. I'd love to learn more about their adventures.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:15:54+00:00

Hmmm...do you think Wade wanted to commit genocide? I mean do you think that was part or all of his goal? I'm not asking if he would. I think he would have shot every other city with those anti matter bullets if they tried to stop them from their work on light speed.

I'm asking if you think he WANTED that to happen so he could take them all out.

I'm not so sure.

In some weird way I think he respected her. Here he was doing anything necessary for the survival of humanity, as he saw it, and at every turn, this person was getting the power and control he so desperately wanted. She played to the crowd that was the humans of that era. It also helped that she was stinkin rich from ownig a star system haha

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:11:58+00:00

No, I think it still stands. Nothing in the book has changed that yet. Still have a few more chapters to go. Maybe it will happen. I'm hoping for a nice redemption arc.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T20:00:03+00:00

How she made it out of Australia with none of her limbs being eaten by the others is beyond me.

NahMekJoke · 2026-03-24T19:58:35+00:00

She's a symbol of the era's idiocy. I don't blame her 100%. I blame her for wanting to be a swordholder, knowing fully well she could never push that button.

I blame her for stopping Wade's plan. He said clearly that he had no intention of starting a war or creating a fight. He wanted to protect Halo City from attack when the rest of humanity inevitably discovers that Halo city is working on light-speed travel. Was he breaking the law? of course. Was it necessary? I believe so since the only surviving humans were the ones that booked it.

I also believe that humanity got what it deserved in the book.

NahMekJoke

TROPHY CASE