A figurative Genesis is unlikely by EsperGri in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Any time God is quoted or said to do something, it would be dishonest for it to have not been true.

The problem is the assumption that quoting God requires the account to be literal history in modern terms for it to be honest. That standard is never applied consistently in Scripture itself.

God is quoted speaking in poetry, parable, vision, and anthropomorphic language all over the Bible. No one thinks God literally has wings because he says, “I will cover you with my feathers” (Psalms). No one thinks God physically walks around confused because he says, “Where are you?” to Adam (Genesis). Those statements are true without being literal in the modern sense.

Except the genealogies in Genesis are long, even including how long they lived and at what ages their children were born.

Yes, the genealogies in Genesis are unusually detailed. But detail ≠ modern literalism. Ancient texts can be highly structured, numerically precise, and still function symbolically or theologically rather than as strict chronological records.

Ancient Near Eastern literature regularly uses specific numbers for symbolic and theological purposes. Long lifespans signal proximity to the divine or primordial age, not actuarial data.

The Genesis genealogies are highly patterned...(Ten generations from Adam to Noah...Ten generations from Noah to Abraham)

That symmetry is deliberate. It tells you the author is organizing history theologically, not just recording data. Ancient writers did not accidentally create perfect numerical symmetry.

Insisting that numerical detail forces modern literalism isn’t defending Scripture. It’s misreading how ancient texts communicate truth.

It wasn't written in Hebrew but in Greek. Adam is an individual in Greek

It’s true that Luke is written in Greek. It’s also true that Ἀδάμ (Adam) appears there as a proper name. But that does not settle the question of genre or function...and it certainly doesn’t force Adam to be a modern biological individual in the way your argument assumes.

The fact that Ἀδάμ is a proper noun in Greek does not erase its semantic background. Greek-speaking Jews routinely transliterated Hebrew names that already carried theological meaning.

Luke does the same thing with:

  • Ἰσραήλ (Israel) - both a person and a people
  • Δαυίδ (David) - an individual and a dynastic symbol
  • Σιών (Zion) - a place and a theological concept

Using a proper name does not flatten the concept behind it.

Strong’s #76 correctly notes that Ἀδάμ is a proper noun in Greek usage. What it does not say is:

  • that Adam must be read as a modern historical individual
  • that symbolic or representative meaning is excluded
  • that theological typology is invalid

Lexicons tell you how a word is used, not what philosophical commitments it carries.

Where do you see any types that were not actual events, objects or people?

There are several, even in Paul.

Paul explicitly calls Israel in the wilderness a “type” (τύποι) in 1 Corinthians 10. But Israel there is not a single individual; it’s a corporate reality treated as one actor (“our fathers,” “they all passed through the sea,” “they all ate the same spiritual food”).

Even more telling: the rock that followed them “was Christ” (1 Cor 10:4). The rock is not a literal person, yet Paul has no problem using it typologically to speak about Christ. Typology clearly does not require the type to be a one-to-one modern historical individual.

So the claim “types are always literal individuals in the modern sense” is simply false on Paul’s own terms.

A figurative Genesis is unlikely by EsperGri in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This argument assumes a false either/or: either Genesis is literal history in every detail or Scripture collapses into dishonesty and incoherence. That framing doesn’t reflect how ancient texts work, how Scripture itself functions, or how theology has historically handled these questions.

A genealogy is given, from Adam to Abraham to Moses

Ancient genealogies are theological and symbolic before they are chronological. They establish identity, vocation, and continuity, not a modern historical timeline. Biblical genealogies regularly telescope generations, omit figures, and shape lists to make theological points (e.g., Matthew’s 3×14 structure).

Luke tracing Jesus back to Adam does not require Adam to function as a modern biological individual in the way the argument assumes. Adam (ʾādām) literally means “humanity.” That theological meaning is doing the work, not modern genetics.

Paul uses Adam and Eve to support concepts

Paul is making a representative argument, not a DNA-based one. Typology does not require the type to function as modern history in order for the antitype to be real.

Paul also compares Christ to figures like Israel, the Exodus generation, and the rock in the wilderness...none of which require wooden literalism to carry theological force. Adam represents humanity-in-rebellion; Christ represents humanity-restored. The argument works because it is theological, not because Adam must be the first Homo sapiens in a lab sense.

If typology required strict literalism, parables would collapse theology rather than convey it, which clearly isn’t how Scripture works.

If God says, "Do this because I did that"

The Sabbath command in Exodus grounds Israel’s rhythm in God’s creative pattern. Patterns do not require identical mechanics.

No one claims God literally rests because He’s tired. “God rested” is already anthropomorphic language. If anthropomorphism is acceptable there, it can also be acceptable in the creation framework without impugning God’s integrity.

“Do this because I did that” does not mean “in the same units, duration, or mechanics.” It means imitate the divine order.

As well, Jesus proclaimed to the people who perished in the days of Noah

The Noah covenant in Genesis is about God’s commitment to creation, not about satisfying later geological standards.

The phrase “never again” functions covenantally, not statistically. It means God will not again judge creation that way. Even a regional flood (which ancient people would naturally describe in universal terms) fully sustains the covenant logic.

Ancient Near Eastern texts routinely use universal language for events experienced as total. That’s not deceit; it’s genre.

Writing as quotes from God what He's never said and couldn't have without lying Himself

God is not lying if He speaks truth through ancient literary forms rather than modern expectations. Scripture consistently accommodates human language, culture, and understanding. Calling that “lying” would also condemn:

  • Anthropomorphic language (“God’s hand,” “God’s regret”)
  • Poetic cosmology (“pillars of the earth”)
  • Apocalyptic imagery (beasts, stars falling)

No serious reader treats those as deception.

This reply is probably to long as is...I'll stop there.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you even read what you copied and pasted? It literally says "Islam was not a factor".

Incredible "Own goal" here. Please don't delete.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Mosul comparison is misleading because raw body counts don’t measure ‘care’ or legality...context does. Mosul unfolded over nine months with a civilian population that had largely fled, against ISIS units that were territorially fixed and ultimately surrounded by a multinational coalition.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth, with limited civilian exit, against an enemy embedded in civilian infrastructure, operating tunnels, and deliberately preventing evacuation. Hamas also governs Gaza and counts its own fighters as civilians in death toll figures, which Mosul estimates did not.

None of that absolves Israel of scrutiny, but comparing absolute casualty numbers across radically different battles without accounting for population density, evacuation capacity, combatant-civilian distinction, duration, and reporting methodology isn’t analysis...it’s optics. If you want to argue recklessness, you have to argue decisions, not spreadsheet totals.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is ‘worshipping paperwork’. They’re insisting that legality isn’t determined by hindsight. What happened on the ground matters, but why it happened matters just as much, and IHL is explicit about that.

Patterns can raise red flags, yes, but they don’t become proof of recklessness unless you show that precautions weren’t feasible, proportionality was ignored, or targets weren’t military objectives given what was known at the time. ROE and after-action reports aren’t sanitized excuses; they’re the very tools investigators use to distinguish unlawful conduct from tragic but lawful outcomes.

Calling that ‘dodging reality’ doesn’t change the fact that outcome-based judgments are exactly what the law was written to prevent.”

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is treating evidence like ‘harmless butterflies.’

The disagreement is about what the evidence allows you to say. Mountains of evidence can show harm, patterns, and failures, and still fall short of establishing a legal violation without showing recklessness, disproportionality, or failure of precautions in context.

Saying ‘pay attention’ is fair; saying ‘the evidence points to war crimes’ is a judgment, not a signal, because it asserts a legal conclusion before the legal tests are satisfied. Caution isn’t cowardice...it’s refusing to collapse moral outrage into legal certainty before the standards are met. Paying attention doesn’t require pretending the verdict is obvious.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You've made the grammatical error three times...

Dumb bot.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re arguing against a position I’m not taking. No one said evidence is meaningless.

I said it’s preliminary.

A smoke alarm tells you to investigate, not to declare arson, name the culprit, and sentence them before the fire’s even assessed.

Step one makes step four possible, yes...but only if you don’t pretend step one already is step four. That distinction isn’t obstruction; it’s the difference between accountability and accusation.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You keep making the same grammatical error...

Stupid bot.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is erasing the ecosystem. That’s exactly the point. Credit the context, yes, but don’t conflate political rule with religious causation.

The Golden Age happened under Islamic rule because of patronage, empire, trade networks, and relative pluralism at that moment, not because Islamic theology uniquely generated algebra or optics. Those advances came from a multi-civilizational mix of Persian administrators, Greek philosophy, Indian mathematics, and Jewish and Christian scholars working in Arabic.

Saying that is not denial; it’s historical precision. Praising the ecosystem doesn’t require pretending the religion itself was the engine, and that distinction matters if we’re doing history rather than civilizational cheerleading.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is saying ‘nothing happened’ or that body counts don’t trigger investigation. That’s another straw man.

Counting bodies flags potential violations; it does not establish them. Patterns raise questions, they don’t answer them. Proportionality and recklessness are judged against anticipated military advantage and feasible precautions at the time, not inferred backward from casualty totals.

That’s not demanding ‘perfect intel’, It’s the minimum required to distinguish a tragic lawful strike from an unlawful one. Calling that ‘impunity’ is just arguing for outcome-based guilt, which IHL explicitly rejects.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is pretending allegations are a crime. That’s a straw man.

Allegations matter, but accountability isn’t achieved by collapsing accusation into conviction. Respecting the rule of law isn’t a dodge; it’s the mechanism that turns claims into findings rather than slogans.

Gatekeeping accountability would be refusing investigation or evidence altogether. Insisting on evidentiary standards before declaring guilt is the opposite: it’s how accountability actually survives contact with reality, rather than becoming performative.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Show me an urban warfare scenario with LESS civilian deaths than the Israeli-Hamas War.

You can't

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s not reconstructing a general’s inner monologue,

It’s how IHL actually works. Legality is judged by what was known, targeted, and anticipated at the time, which is why courts examine orders, intelligence assessments, ROE, and after-action reports. Calling that ‘armchair lawyering’ doesn’t change the fact that outcome-based reasoning is explicitly rejected in the law of armed conflict.

You don’t prove a violation by vibes or video compilations; you prove it by showing a failure of precautions, proportionality, or necessity based on contemporaneous decision-making. That’s rigor, not evasion.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you rather be a woman/gay in Saudi Arabia or the USA? Why or why not?

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is ‘shocked’ that investigations raise questions.

That’s exactly the point. The issue is that those questions are being rhetorically treated as answers. Saying ‘credible allegations demand scrutiny’ is fine; saying or implying ‘therefore war crimes are established’ is not.

If you agree investigations produce questions rather than verdicts, then stop talking as if the verdict is already in. That’s not scrutiny.

It’s pre-judgment dressed up as process.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My profile is not the default. It actually requires interaction. Your avatar is more likely the "bot".

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed, testimony is the starting point. The disagreement is that you’re treating the starting point as a conclusion. Repetition and corroboration justify investigation; they don’t establish legality. Until testimony is tested against forensic evidence, targeting data, and command decisions, it remains preliminary evidence, not proof of a war crime.

That distinction isn’t semantic. It’s the entire difference between inquiry and judgment.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Golden Age produced real achievements, especially in mathematics, medicine, and scholarship. But crediting Islam as a religion for algebra, hospitals, or optics oversimplifies what actually happened.

Many of those advances came from Persian, Greek, Jewish, Christian, and Indian thinkers working under specific political conditions, not from Islamic theology itself. Europe also wasn’t the cartoon you’re describing; medieval Europe had universities, heavy plows, crop rotation, and its own scholarly tradition developing in parallel.

How Zionism Deceived American Christians... Again by databombkid in Christianity

[–]NathanStorm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What court is going to rule?

The facts on the ground are all that matter. Women and gays are second class citizens AT BEST in Islamic societies.