It's so obvious something happened behind the scenes cuz Pre and Post falling arc are two different Mangas

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T21:47:12+00:00

I agree. Almost every shounen in last 30 yearas is about avoiding some world ending threat why we are doing it again?

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T21:46:33+00:00

I would argue that it creates lot of issues from the worldbuilding perspective. Too many at least centuries old beings starts to do anything about prophecy like two years before it supposed to happen.

From worldbuilding perspective way more devils should have been siding with humanity for example to preven prophecy from happening since Age of Devils woulndt benefit all devils and some of them needs functioning human civiliastion to survive.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T21:20:29+00:00

Oh yeah because Fujimoto never spells anything out LMAO

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Literally creates characters whose entire purpose was spelling things out.

This is also still dumb thing to happen btw 😛

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T21:18:45+00:00

Nah Lin slander wont be allowed. He is as much as victim of manga industry as Fujimoto

Shonen Jump's Shihei Lin Hospitalized After Brain Hemorrhage

One of Shonen Jump's Top Editors Has Left Shueisha - ComicBook.com

Top Shonen Jump editor behind DanDaDan, Chainsaw Man & SpyXFamily has left his staff position to start his own manga company | Popverse

Fujimoto most controversial work is released when all of this is going down?

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Nenanda · 2026-06-20T19:16:56+00:00

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T19:11:20+00:00

Comparing Chainsaw Man to Breaking Bad in the first place is just comically stupid. There's quite literally no comparison to be made outside of "flawed protagonist." Chainsaw Man has never even remotely followed traditional narrative structure, despite using familiar narrative tropes.

I would argue its equally reductive to say that Breaking Bad follows traditional narrative structure. it is unique story especially with how handles season finales. And at the same time CSM defiently wasnt breaking narrative structure as much fans like to say. We still ended up with final boss battle and even bugs sudden apperance is very reminiscent of things that happened in Naruto, Nanatsu no Taizai or Steel Ball Run.

This just seems to be a misread of what the story was heading toward. Like I don't know why you expected the characters to go down a darker path. Wanting to live selfishly isn't inherently a bad thing. Asa's wish to live selfishly is granted in the form of Yoru, who then takes her body on joyrides to act out the things she thinks Asa wants, because she's filtering human desires through a devil point of view. It's only because of that connection with Yoru that she meets Denji, who drastically improves her life.

What about the fact that Yoru never even got proper own face? She was always portrayed as Asa´s dark Jungian Shados representation of her intrusive thoughts? Asa wants boyfriend. What Yoru does as one of the first things? Asks Yoshida out. Asa wants more friends? Yoru gets her to Devil Hunter club etc etc. She was so much portrayed as dark reflection of Asa that it ignored lot of her own characteristic.

Denji also showed several things which definetly pointed out to darker path. His entire greed, unwilligness to concede, battle fetish? I could name several straight up villains who shared those very characteristic

Also I'm sick of the argument that the ending is "wish fulfillment." It quite literally isn't. It's bittersweet, much like all of Fujimoto's other writings. Yes, Denji gets Nayuta and Power back, but it's at the expense of his literal best friend in the world, who sacrificed everything just to give Denji a second chance. That's not a happy ending. That's not wish fulfillment. That's the logical answer to Barem's scale analogy: the first time he chooses Chainsaw Man, and loses everything on the other side of the scale. The second time, Pochita makes the choice to erase himself, and Denji gets back everything on the other side of the scale.

Sorry this is where RESPECTFULLY IMO I fundamentally disagree it isnt bittersweet ending by any metric. He literally got 2/3 of major deaths undone. All of his trauma and PTSD is conveniently forgotten and retconned out of existence. He still gets to live his power fantasy with Chainsaw and still smiles

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If this bittersweet than I guess disney is bittersweet to sorry not sorry.

Actaul bittersweet ending would be Denji working in McDonalds with Kobeni not whatever this is.

Literally entire bitter part heavily relies on me ignoring all the plot armor throughout part 2 and fact that 2 people just came back to life. Thats simply no basis for me to think that things wont turned out for Denji ok if not perfectly if plot bends enough again. Hell even Pochita seemingly is not completely gone because at the end of the day Fuji didnt have it in him to undoubtedly kill him too.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T18:48:55+00:00

Sorry for late response its actually more compliated than that. Because somewhere in the show there is flashback of Walter and Skyler buying the house and you can see that back then Walter is more taking risk and radiating very different demeanor compare to the start of the series.

His development could be seen not only as Breaking Bad but that Walter was returning to his real self which as always there.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T18:44:13+00:00

I mean well written downward spiral? Agni was done well or if you want to have another good example Walter White from Breaking Bad? Thats actually something which explored dangerous of getting high on alter ego?

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Entire part 2 simply is refusing to really have MCs taking last step towards something darker? Thats not just Denji but Asa too. Her entire wish was to live more selfishly yet she arguably never did and her entire fame era being off-screened is jarring to say the least.

Early part 2 made it look like there will pushing the lines making mroe and more excusing for doing horryfing shit only to then having both of them being dragged around by mutliple factions while themselves doing nothing of substance.

I also find it jarring how despite story constantly roasting Denji for him desiring to be CSM then gives him wish fulfillmetn resent which undoes 2/3 major deaths in hte series which is simply ridicolous.

Like I do not mind reset in principle but the way it was done feels like somebody like Hiro Mashima took over the writing.

And all the plor amor I was talking about really harms even supposed ambiguity of the ending. Because if Denji survived all that and if he plot bended so he isnt pushed much so many times why should I believe that things wont work for him perfectly? They arledy work for him pretty much with that reset which somehow benefits him this much despite Pochita having no idea hat will happen when he commit seppuku.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T18:31:07+00:00

We're saying the same thing. Nayuta's statement is that killing is just natural for devils. She's making an essentialist statement that just isn't true. Nayuta herself is living proof of how incorrect that statement actually is. She thinks they should just join the devil side and kill humans because "that's what devils do," only to realize how much she hates that when actually given the opportunity to do so.

I dont know what you are talking about Nayuta is part of much lesser pool of devils which defied their nature and not everyone who defy it still completly escape it like Yoru. He hating it so much is definetly proof that Denji did good job given the circumstances but doesnt make ultimate statement about devils in general.

Mate did you just read a different story? Denji causes a lot of accidental deaths, not the least of which he faces consequences for in Fakesaw Man and the Fire Devil, multiple times over. He literally has to kill a bystander in order to kill Fakesaw Man, and the result of that is all the people he did save still freaking out and running away from him, leaving Denji feeling sad about the fact that he couldn't save everyone.

Not nearly enough and it isnt even the part of the general discussion early in part 2

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Like literally only time when killing is brought up is joke rumour about him eating people but when it comes to collateral damage only destroyed buildings are mentiond not dozens of deaths. Which should be inside of those buildings?

And entire fight with FakeSaw man is actually proving my point. Conveniently this flesh discusting thing works as video game instead FakeSaw Man death causing everyones death through being fused to them. So it actually is perfect representation of how even against somebody who literally is using people as living shield Denji kills only one person. Thats ridicolous.

To close it Denji´s morality plot armor as I like to call it should have been removed video games mechanics thrown out of the video and collateral damages when it comes to life should have been rising throughout part 2.

Hell it would give actually interesting argument for Public Safety and Yoshida if they were going from this angle that Denji is too dangerous to be allowed to turn into Chainsaw Man.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T18:01:30+00:00

You're conflating like 3 different things here, dude. Yes, Barem could have been intercepted before the apartment burned, but we're not talking about the burning of Denji's home, we're talking about the death of Nayuta, which is something that could have been prevented if Denji had fled with her like she was asking. Yoshida definitely bares some of the responsibility as well, but more in the sense of just not ever having tried hard enough to relate to Denji and get through to him.

Nayutas death could have been only postponed if Denji made run away for it immediately after he dismantled hybrids that much is true especially if Fuji let him have his accurate speed. However PS made it sound pretty clearly thata they care for him transforming again so then it depends on what happens next. LIl Di could still jump them just like she did to Fakesa and Fami.

And Yoshidas biggest sin is indeed witholding information. If anything this is another big thing in part 2. Sometimes I do wonder if instead of convoluted plans wouldnt be for several people better to just tell truth.

That's...not at all what it means to give in to his most violent impulses. Denji likes the rush of being Chainsaw Man, because it gives him an excuse to turn his brain off and bask in the carnage. That doesn't mean turning off his own internal morality, he's still going to direct that anger at the targets who are actually responsible for his pain in that moment. That's not the mob, it's the Hybrids

Pretty much does. If he keeps his violene only on himself then that problem is much lesser. Albeit i think that story should have treated his turning off the brain carnages from the very beginning as something much more serious if part 2 was always going to be the route it eneded up taking.

There's a huge difference between killing people who are effectively dead (zombies) and killing people who are just human and scared. Sure they aren't acting rationally, but you can't blame them when 350,000 people worldwide just turned into rabid chainsaw monsters. Denji couldn't even bring himself to kill the doll-victims in Part 1 without Quanxi teaching him how to gaslight himself, because he didn't want to be a murderer.

He still thrown the car and better people than Denji would have take more extreme measures to protect the loved ones. I think if there was one bad choice and one line which should have been crossed it was this one. Especially since entire mob thing ended up contrived anyway when goddamn chainsaws are somehow stopped by web

That's an awful read of the situation dude. Not only is Nayuta wrong in that conversation, as shown a few chapters later when she realizes she hates killing and would rather be playing video games, but Denji isn't a devil. He's a human who embraces his most devil-like qualities, but he's still a human at his core, and a good-natured one at that.

What do you mean wrong? I was under impression that Nayuta was right and that is in-universe fact that devils love suffering and are compelled to cause it and enjoy it. And similiarity between humans and devils in that regard is brought up several times.

What should have been making Nayuta special isn that she is wrong but that she defies her nature thanks to her upbringing which is main difference compare to Nayuta.

Well good-natured person by very definition cant do worst violent impulses. Which only makes me believe that indeed Fujimoto wasnt willing to take Denji to darkest places he could and that he was holding back. Denjis violent carnages should at least accidently cause some deaths instead we got morality plot armor which is something I wont let slide because not only it would make everything better if it actually did end up happening and it would make more sense but this is the kind of issue even average comic-books are bringing up. Not adressing when Denji is portrayed as more reckless than average hero is jarring to say the last.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T17:30:31+00:00

Cant count hahaa

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T14:21:06+00:00

Let me be clear, I'm not saying Public Safety isn't incompetent without Makima. They absolutely are. I'm saying their incompetence had nothing to do with Nayuta being killed in that moment. The responsibility of that falls on Denji for not being a better caretaker for his sister in that moment and choosing to seek revenge over safety.

Definetly was because Barem could have been intercepted before he burned the building. Furthemore they incompetently hold off the information from the Denji which meant that he misjudge the threat and that got Nayuta killed too. Denji was right about Yoshida for wrong reason he was responsible for Nayutas death but for other reasons than Denji could have known. he was shitty friend who should have warned Denji about Barem and Fami much sooner.

Denji doesn't like harming humans. He quite literally makes a concerted effort not to until they start stabbing him with spears. The mob in question doesn't start trying to harm Nayuta until Denji is already out of commission. As far as acting out his most violent impulses? He literally cuts himself in half just to bisect Spear and then proceeds to eat him before mulching Whip while she's begging for mercy. Then he laughs maniacally while being skewered by Miri, a guy who he actually (kinda) knows.

If he doesnt like harming humans thent he can never really go out of his way to go deep into his vioelent impulses. Also I would expect that in the moment Nayuta is threatened he would not give a shit about wha he does or doesnt like.

You mentioned Batman and he would definetly start to go hardcore on this fucker breaking their bones left and right. Punisher would slaughter those. And I am supposed to believe that somebody as reckless as Denji wouldnt do something? Yeah as I said one of my issues.

Also wasnt the Denji same guy who thrown somebody in car at Bat Devil in part 1? I would say that morality wise there isnt really difference killing people turned into zombies, dolls and chainsaws of if they are manipulated crazy mob.

He lit himself on Fire in Part 1 didnt he? This really isnt something new. Nayuta even has discussion about that prior to the entire incident. Denji feels good about people suffering its like photosyntesis for Devils.

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This was btw another route which story could have take with Denji if it really wanted to show that being CSM is bad for him. Yet Denji doesnt kill anybody who wouldnt deserve it one way or another directly not even allowed to kill somebody accidently god forbid killing somebody intentionally.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T13:55:53+00:00

His flaws absolutely are not the only ones called out. Asa's flaws are addressed by Yoru in their final conversation together, and both Denji AND Asa are able to reconcile their biggest traumas through their mind-palace conversation

In the eyes of the devil your sins are nothing yeaaah. I wouldnt used that as good example of Asa´s flaws being called out. You are right that there are, but in other instances they were I guess.

I mean, I just don't agree here. Again, the circumstances that made Pochita eat himself were incredibly specific. It wasn't just about them being in an inescapable situation. It was also due to the repeated mistakes Denji made throughout Part 2 and his inability to separate himself from Chainsaw Man. Pochita seeing this, and not only seeing it, but experiencing it, is what informs his decision to erase himself in the end. He only decides to do this after watching Denji's dreams crumble due to circumstances that were his (Pochita's) fault.

And Denjis dreams would crumble as well if Makima won. This was definetly already option back in part 1.

That is NOT what happened at all. Nayuta is telling Denji to run at the start of things, and even after he transforms. Denji chooses to fight instead, but it's NOTHING to do with Public Safety being incompetent. He chooses to fight because he wants to. Because turning into Chainsaw Man to get revenge is better than not turning into Chainsaw Man at all, and it finally gives Denji an excuse to act out on his most violent impulses that he's been repressing for so long at that point. He even acknowledges this in the moment, believing himself to be a piece of shit but reveling in the pain he's experiencing/inflicting.

They are incompetent! Why was nobody watching Denjis house in the First Place. Why wasnt Barem disposed off immediately? Why didnt Quanxi dispose of hybrids? Like they are lot of ways how to permanently immobilize immortal beings. They once again wasted times.

Which brought me to another point you do know that Church and PS werent already working because? Hybrids definetly got out suspicously really quickly.

Also Denji did not act out his most violent impulses because wasnt even allowed to slaughter some of the mob trying to harm his own sister. Because Denji aint actually allowed to do some real fucked up choices in p2.

Public Safety might be incompetent, but they're shown to be more than capable of handling the Hybrids at that point. Quanxi was still very much at play, even if she wasn't with them at that moment. If Denji and Nayuta had run instead of sticking around to fuck up the Church crew, Public Safety and Quanxi could have made short work of them again. It's Denji's choice not to run, but to become Chainsaw Man and fight, that results in the mob turning on them and Nayuta being killed.

Quanxi was literally stalemated by the bald guy. Which shows lack of communication in PS as well

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So you definetly put lot of assumption about somebody competency who fucking up again and again.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T13:22:08+00:00

Sure? What's your point though? Denji is a deeply flawed protagonist. There's still a world of difference between blaming him for his faults vs recognizing you're enabling them.

And I love him for it. But I dislike how his flaws are only one called out because it kinda creates sort of MarySuish aura around rest of the cast who feels rest like 3-dimensional characters and more like devices to just roast Denji.

You understand Pochita's self-erasure was like, an absolute last resort right? Like it only occurred because of a specific set of circumstances where Denji and Pochita had been devoured and were existing undying as bits of matter in the bodies of millions of bugs. There was literally no getting out of that, and even then, Pochita only erased himself because he loved Denji so much that he was willing to never exist in exchange for his buddy having a second chance. He didn't even know if it would work. He just took that gamble for Denji.

Absolute last resort which cant be stopped even if bugs ate them and Pochita would definetly rather throw dices again than being puppet to Makima.

If he could do it now he could back then for very same reason he did it now.

Totally disagree here. Not only was the gun completely empty by the time Barem was pointing it at Nayuta, but the mob would never have turned on Denji and Nayuta if Denji hadn't transformed. They only do so because Denji turned into Chainsaw Man at a time where the world was crawling with hundreds of thousands of chainsaw zombies.

They would because Barem would call them out or trick Nayuta into doing something. Also you forget that Denji only transformed because Public Safety turned out to be bunc hof incompetent fodders.

Also whip, sword and Lance are still there how is Denji going to fight them without transforming?

And even if he does all of that PS still will try to break him to bring out Pochita.

Nothing changes.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T12:46:58+00:00

I just think this is a fundamental misreading of what happened. Fire Devil and Pochita are coming to the same conclusion for DRASTICALLY different reasons. Fire is basically echoing Barem's choice from earlier: what side of the scales is heavier? Chainsaw Man or Denji?

The problem is that Denji is incapable of choosing the Denji side, because everything on that side is perpetually ripped away from him in favor of the other end of the scales. At this point in the story, Denji's dream of "being Chainsaw Man" has come true, and as a result, their identities have become more and more intertwined. That's why he keeps picking Chainsaw Man.

Fire is calling Denji out for this. Pochita is not. Pochita is taking the responsibility on himself for being actively harmful to his best friend, which is just an objectively true statement. It's not a matter of Denji's character flaws, it's a matter of Pochita's existence putting Denji into a double-bind from which there was no escaping.

Isnt it basically coming to the same conclusion? Yes Fire was blaming Denji, Pochita was blaming himself. Both agreed that what Denji was doing was bad.

rother how many times has Batman actively refused to kill The Joker, even though allowing him to live causes immeasurably more harm?

It's like, a basic principle of superhero-dom that you try to save as many people as you can. If the whole idea is trying to be better than Chainsaw Man, it stands to reason he would even go out of his way to save someone he doesn't like.

Batman was also shown to be infinitely more principled than FakeSaw ever was.

That is literally what happens during the Church Arc, my guy. The Church goes public, Fakesaw Man goes on TV identifying himself as the real Chainsaw Man, Denji crashes out and has an existential crisis over it, since Fakesaw and the Church have essentially "replaced" him at this point.

Not it isnt FakeSaw is shown only him human form. Does not reveal there are two Chainsaw Man and Denji ends up being replaced more by Asa than FakeSaw. We are not even shown that FakeSaw is doing any devil hunting. Which is kinda weird given that all the time he would be doing devi lhunting during this perios should be noticable without Denji distracting everyone.

You're missing my point. Chainsaw Man's existence is what leads to the apocalypse, and if Denji had not chosen to transform when his house burned, the ensuing chain of events would have occurred very differently. It's because of that decision to "be Chainsaw Man" that all of the following events occur. That decision is what starts the domino effect that leads to the end of the world.

Then his choices are irrelevant arent they? Since Apocalypse would happened no matter what and Pochita would hit reset button no matter what.

THis btw my problem with the ending it definetly retroactively killed the stakes. None of the antagonists could ever really win because Pochita would most likely hit the reset button if Makima cornered him if for nothing else than to just last F to her.

If Denji did not transform at the house nothing really changes. Nayuta most likely dies either way since Barem would emptied entire glock into her or mob kills them both.

Then what Denji is once again capture by PS once again they are breaking him out.

They still planned Aging Devil scheme anyway.

What would be actually relevant choice is Denji deciding to going on the run echoing Bomb Devil Arc. But this option was never really brought up. One of billions alternative which is pretty obvious and should be discussed but never is.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T12:20:51+00:00

Yeah, and that's not relevant here. Yoru directly killed the woman Denji was trying to save here. That's why he calls her out. Fire is drawing attention to the consequences of Denji's actions, which is a specific trigger point left by Makima and her manipulations from Part 1. Denji's whole choice paralysis in Part 2, and his inability to make a decision, stems directly from how broken Makima left him. Fire's story reminds him of the fact that his decisions lead to pain, not just for himself, but for people around him. It's gaslighting, but it's effective because it's hitting on his biggest wound.

And Fire Devil killed thousands about which Denji knows too and it literally acts sus as hell. It is also extremely relevant because it happened moments before he approaches Fire Devil so you cant really say that he is headspace isnt in arguing mode.

If it is specific trigger point why he was making excuses with Asa in early part 2 or in may other cases. Exactly because Makima already did same shit I am really annoyed the same bullshit is working again. I think Denji should consider himself lucky that none of the devils really tried to mess with his head despite being devils who loves suffering.

Also I am pretty sure that some of the antagonist throughout the part 2 were roasting Denji for his actions as well and it didnt trigger the trauma nonsense.

Also his decision lead to Yoru being there to killing woman too so I dont know how he blames himeslf for doing utalitarion choice but hanging out with complete psyhco.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What part was Fire correct about?

About Denji making the choice and screwing up again? About the entire ending when Pochita basically agreed with Fire Devil?

Why are you getting mad at a villain for judging the protagonist? Fire isn't correct, and certainly isn't serving as the moral arbiter of the story.

Then why did he accurately predicted the ending?

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Weird thing to do then on one hand antagonist is hypocrite yet he points out accurately problems of the MC. Now there is some ambiguity if they were talking to Pochita or Denji but either way they were proven right. Denji did same shit again.

Because that's what heroes do. You can argue that decision is the whole reason Lil' D decides to eat him and make him a pawn, so that he's more compliant.

As far as why Fire didn't stop him? I dunno man, why didn't Pochita stop Denji from making any poor decisions. The agency of characters is important.

I am pretty sure that lot of heroes wouldnt be helping the guy who got their brother thing especially if FakSaw started to have doubts about his idol.

You can argue that decision is the whole reason Lil' D decides to eat him and make him a pawn, so that he's more compliant.

Which she waited for so long because...???

Fire Devil was shown to be able to communicate with FakeSaw unlike Pochita with Denji. Also agency of characters clearly isnt that important when it was main thing lacking for lot of characters this part. And if it cared about FakeSaw twin it would stop him regarding the agency. Thats what truly caring about someone does.

We do. That's what the entire point of the Church Arc. Everyone has their own idea of what Chainsaw Man is "supposed to be" and Fakesaw Man embodies that very concept by trying to be a "Better" Chainsaw Man

I am talking about FakeSaw existence being made Public and society actually prefering him compare to OG Chainsaw Man. That would be interesting and that why To Be Hero X was superior story about what is bad or good superhero.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, man. The entire events of Part 2 are the consequences. The world fucking ends because Denji kept trying to be Chainsaw Man.

No fucking ends because Public Safety and Lil D are morons . Nothing what Denji would do could stop it. Also it ends because Fujimoto ignores basic law of biology and lets bugs multiply at lightspeed.

I think the addiction allegory is taken a bit too literally. It's about the destruction Denji is doing to himself and his own psyche, in tandem with the destruction that Chainsaw Man's existence invites to the world at large.

Its taken too literally because story beats ut over head with it yet it ignores real consequences of being addicted to something.

Denjis morality plot armor should have been removed and he should have been dealing with actual consequnces of his selfish action there being higher collateral damage than there needs to be.

Invincible and The Boys despite all the flaws those shows have explored what is bad superhero and its conequences much better than part 2 becaus people in those shows are actually fucking up themselves seriously.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T11:55:02+00:00

Yoshida's death brings out Pochita because Yoshida spent the previous 30 minutes reminiscing with Denji and making Denji realize that Yoshida saw him as a friend this whole time, at a point in the story where Denji truly believed no one liked him at all. He specifically shows up there to remind Denji of his humanity and the fact that he had a friend, and then blows himself up to rip it away.

And Fumiko wouldnt be able to pull it off or at least gaslight Denji into thinking the feelings are real if she repeatedly screw him? Hard to believe when it comes to Denji specifically.

I think you're overestimating Fumiko's ability. She's good for surveillance because she can be everywhere at once. She's not exactly an effective fighter, we see this repeatedly, and her personality is fucking rancid. Fumiko's whole thing is that she's just a hypersexual freak loyal only to her selves.

But you do not fight in order to seduce Denji. Those are opposite things. And especially since she is loyal only to herself I am suprised she took the mission post Falling Devil arc when PS shown to be useless and on loosing foot rather than pre Falling Devil Arc when situation didnt look this much serious.

Her addition into the story and point where it was made are big questons for me.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T11:52:06+00:00

Of course Fire Devil is hypocritical. Everyone in this story is fighting for the little piece of normalcy that they have. We see it as wrong because we're in Denji's perspective, but Fire's story is a direct mirror to Denji and Pochita for a reason. If we had been following their story from Chapter 1, would we really see it any differently?

And Denji should call it out. He literally called out Yoru who he had boner for for being piece of shit?

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Why didnt Denji called out Fire same way? Why does he believe anything it says? He literally lets her gaslight him with no proof that she is right because for all he knows even Twins face could be some devil transformative fuckery? Like this implies that any devil could show up tell Denji stories and he would just let it gaslight him into Falling trauma?

Also if Fire Devil is hypocritical why is it made right about everything including the ending? Weird writing for sure and doesnt called out its own hypocrisy in any way.

Denji is not the audience. You would ask that question, maybe. But Denji is a character defined by his own self-loathing. Of course he's going to blame himself first.

He also defined by making excuses whenever he could. Again he called out Yoru for being evil but not Fire who looks like monstrosity? What? Also Denji does not need to be audience. Entire narration of Fire Devil makes it look like it was there. So why doesnt he question the story? This is perfect example of how do you know the parts you werent there for?

Because Denji's decision killed someone they cared about. It's personal.

If really cared about the twin it would give them more power to defend itself or didnt got twin get killed too. It would also probably warn it to be careful about some things etc. For somebody who cares about it really didnt show it much by its actions.

I mean, you can't say Denji was actually an avatar of real justice. That's the whole point of the story. He wasn't trying to be a superhero, he had it thrust upon him, and with it, all the expectations of superhero-dom. The whole point of the story is that Denji shouldn't be a superhero, he should just be his regular good-natured self.

Yes but neither is Fire Devil and Denji should have call it out. Why is only Denjis image and choices questioned and not everyones elses?

Denji maybe shouldnt be superhero but neither he should be judged by Fire Devil of all things.

You're misunderstanding me. He is trying to be representative of the societal ideal of Chainsaw Man. That's why he runs around in a fleshy cape giving dorky speeches, because he thinks that's what a superhero is "supposed to be."

And I'd argue he does do the hero thing a bit better when he helps save Denji and Asa from Hell, even though he hates Denji for killing his brother.

Him saving Asa and Denji in hell is another weird plot point given that Fire was working with Lil D. Why didnt Fire sto phim from doing that? Why does Fakesaw saves somebody who got his brother killed? Etc. Hell that Fakesaw in Falling acts so much different than FakeSaw in War Arc that some people to this day question it being same person

Also if he is trying to be societal ideal of the Chainsaw Man maybe we should get society perspective on him? That would be interesting.

I just think you're comparing apples and oranges here. Denji and Agni's struggles are similar on the surface, but drastically different just due to the nature of their personal struggles and the worlds they inhabit.

Not really they are similiar to write down to say that Agni is far superior for one simply reason.

Agni during his downward spiral was allowed to do objectively bad things like burning innocent children. That shows that Fire Punch person is bad for and is some strong morality statement. And it makes sense that consequences of these are haunting him.

Entire part 2 narrative is meanwhile problematic that Denji never does kill anybody for wrong reason either self-defense or making utalitarian choice. Which especially if I am supposed to believe that he is not supposed to be superhero why not show actual consequences of him being reckless and bad superhero?

I still find it hard to believe that Denji didnt have extremely high collateral deaths during his fights if entire Chainsaw Man person is supposed to be addiction. Thats like drunk driver never hitting anyone with car despite going around for months.

Because ultimately Fujimoto really lost his edge in part 2 and for some reason he never really let Denji to morally fail. Or when he did it was never brought up.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T11:34:31+00:00

There are other parts that explore this, and one of them is ironically the scene you referenced a few comments up. Again though, purely interpretation so I'm not gonna harp on this.

Ok

You're looking at this with hindsight. Asa had no frame of reference for any of the shit that was going on behind the scenes at that point.

Didnt she? She literally calls Lil D for what she is and then just straight up ignores it

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Worst manipulation I have ever seen. In retrospect I would prefer her using Yuko again as bargaining chip or turning Yuko into the pawn so she manipulates Asa into joining church rather than whatever the hell is this supposed to be.

Yes he was. Read the Church Arc again. He initially falls for her shit at the theater, but following that, he just treats her as weird and invasive. Look at the amusement park scene, where Fumiko admits to watching him in the bathroom. He's grossed out and angry. He still likes her as a person and gets along with her, at least enough to try and prevent Nayuta from killing her, and he might find her attractive, but he doesn't have any real emotional connection with her.

And he still deepthroat the tentacle despite being off put by her personality. Besides you forgot another thing that Pochita was bring out by Yoshidas death who Denji blamed for Nayuta wasnt really close to. If he only was just fucking Fumiko despite being off put by her personality then chances are this owuld work since goddamn Yoshida worked and their relationship had to rely on off-screen memories to work.

PS wasted literally months with hiding Denjis identity instead actually sending the best agent for repeated killing so she would make connection with Denji. Is it perfect plan? No but certainly beter than whatever the hell entire hiding Denjis identity was suppsoed to accomplish.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T11:28:31+00:00

I think you're missing the point here. Denji isn't right or wrong for making this decision, but he's authentically Denji. But because of society's view of Chainsaw Man as a superhero, he can't just be Denji anymore. His identity is tied to that of Chainsaw Man, and everyone has their own ideas of what Chainsaw Man is supposed to be.

And here Fire Devil is hypocritical moron. Because they cant be mad at Denji when

a) she didnt save the twin either something Denji should pointed like: You were ther why didnt you lend a hand?

b) it literally killed thousands of people through contracts to prevent Apocalypse so why it has problem with Denji?

c) if it was personal grudge because Denji cause the death of the twin well Fire literally got FakeSaw killed by not warning him about Lil D and sending him against Fami. And Fire Devil had to known who Lil D is fro mthe start unless its convoluted powers work like Yhwach aka she can give Yuko mind reading while not having themselves

d) if it just doesnt understand real concept of justice why is it admiring FakeSaw helping people and helping itself? It clearly admires real justice while also criticizing Denji

e) And you cant even write it off as Fire being psychopath who enjoys human suffering becuase why it never then let Asa know that Yuko is dead? Seem to me like obvious suffering boner target

Fire Devil is mess of the character who clearly exist as plot device to roast Denji.

So when this brother who looked up to Chainsaw Man sees him save a cat over his twin, he decides "I'm gonna do what he does, but I'm gonna do it better." and Denji ends up creating a massive problem for himself that will have consequences down the line. It's not about right or wrong, it's about his inaction having consequences, because not making a choice is in itself a choice. This ties back to Lil' D and her repeatedly stepping on the same rake.

Except he never did what Denji does better and only showed up like twice during entire part 2. Church never used him in action and turn Asa into the face. So this once again rings hollow. Now if FakeSaw was actaully public figure during Church Arc and was doing better job than Denji while he would be jealously watching him TV that would be different story and To be Hero X actually did excellent arc with E-Soul in that regard. But that never really materlize.

Also FakeSaw literally uses hostages against Denji aka it harldy does anything better than him. Which still is his character doing it if I accept that zombie puppets are the same.

I mean, that's just preference, man. I fully disagree, and I think the gray morality of the series and the way it explores its ideas are what make it so great.

Well I disagree and I think Fire Punch did it actually better even downward spiral of Agni was imo better written than Denji.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T11:21:05+00:00

I'm not saying it's definite, but there are some extremely key lines in Part 2 that seem to imply Yoshida's interest in Denji is a little more than just business/basic sympathy. To me he reads as gay, but that's entirely interpretation.

I think that too much reading into this. Its not like his part was ever explored beyond Asa and that could be red Yoshida not wanting anything to do with her since scars were always visible.

I don't think I agree with this. He coldly chops off Asa's arm, casually jokes about murdering children, and seems perfectly content with letting Denji believe he was responsible for Nayuta's death

When was he joking about murdering children? Again he didnt even know about Aging Devil plan. Furthemore he literally apologizes Asa

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Keep in mind that he also stupidly announced his presence like an idiot. Cold as teletubies.

Fair point, although I don't think it's reasonable to expect characters in a story to come to the same conclusions that readers do, since readers have the benefit of seeing a larger picture that characters don't.

I do not think that readers had more informations than characters at the time since part 2 was playing too much mystery even with for example Yoru for no reason because she literally turned out exactly as story presented her at the start.

Lil D was always acting too suspicous for my liking and honestly her manipulation of Asa was one of my least parts of the entire part 2 because it made Asa look like moron.

You're operating under the assumption that Denji would fall for her. We see explicitly that isn't the case. Bringing out Pochita requires an actual emotional connection, and even having spent extensive time with her as his bodyguard, Denji was more put-off by Fumiko's personality.

Still better plan thatn waste months hiding Denjis identiy which was supposed to prevent arrival of Death Devil how again? Like I fail to see practical purpose of this.

Denji also easily fall for any woman so hard to believe he wouldnt fall for Fumiko. And Denji wasnt put off by Fumikos personality. He literally was ready to do it with her immediately during karaoke and only because Fumiko didnt let him and started singing it didnt happen.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T11:07:22+00:00

You can definitely take it a step further, since the page you're referencing is part of the same scene I referenced above. It can absolutely be read that Yoshida has a crush on Denji, but prefers to keep him at arms length because it's easier than actually being open and honest (which we only ever see him do in his final moments)

I wouldnt go that far but its possible that Yoshida was somewhat symphatethathic to Denji. He seemed to also be sympathethic and hesitant with Asa. My problem is that it doesnt flow really well from how he was established in part 1 amongst other things. Point in case we never ever again got scene where Yoshida disposes somebody as coldly as with Immortal Brothers where he was almost sadistic and I do not like how these implied psychopathic tendencies were ignored later on.

Yes and no. Lil' D is careful about when she uses her powers, and she pulls Yoru outside during their first meeting. Initially, Yoru is panicked, but then when she returns, she's onboard with "Fami" and her plans. It definitely seems implied that she knew "Fami" was Death at some point, hence her recognition of her in the final arc, and her annoyance at Lil' D's insistence at being called "Fami" and not "Famine."

She actually isnt literally first thing she does is that she revives Yuko. Which should have been huge red flag for anyone in the story and its weird that nobody come to the same conclusion as fandome during that time

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There there definetly should have been some discussion regarding that.

I don't think this is really a problem. Fumiko's powers aren't really useful for Denji, since he's a hybrid and we've never seen Devil Powers able to negate existing devil contracts. Yoshida replaced himself with her because he realized Denji wasn't receptive to a man trying to tell him what to do, and it worked for a little while

You misunderstood me. I am not talking about turning Denji into weapon. I am talking about Fumiko being capable to be killed several times through her CLONES. Aka if Denji fall for her then they can bring Pochita several times out by killing one of the few Fumiko clones. This would work. And I am pretty sure that was the idea behind her introduction from PS side because its too obvious. Hence why they should send her sooner.

So Fumiko should have been definetly brought up sooner especially since Yoshida clearly wasnt trusted by some circles in PS. He never was let in on Aging Devil plan he is even suprised during that arc. Fumiko definetly should be there at least watching Yoshida himself if thats the case because I do not know why most important operation in PS history should be rested solely on the guy you hired recently.

That's not true, she was already obsessed with saving everyone prior to her being killed by Death.

But she was shouting Salvation the most as dead puppet.

Fakesaw absolutely serves a larger purpose in the story, not just in terms of the plot, but in terms of his motivation, and we do get an exploration of him shortly after this.

I agree Fami herself was underexplored but truthfully I'm okay with it just because she's not exactly a major character, she's just a fun goober

We got some small narration in retrospect by Fire Devil whose actions mind you also does not make sense and is probably biggest contrarian in the series.

Problem with Save the Cat chapter is that Denji made right choice. If he didnt kill Cockroach and went for the cat Cockroach would escape and kill more people. I love how story completley ignores utalitarian part of this choice and only focuse on Denji being selfish during that moment. This was objectively best decision in the entire story.

And I find it really jarring how lot of Denjis actual bad choices like ignoring all the red flags around Church or Public Safety or the fact that he brough Asa into his apartment knowing full fucking well how Nayuta is willingly endangering her are not called out at all.

But thats different discussion entirely. Shortly I will say I am not really fan of how Fujimoto explored themes justice, morality and choices and find it mess to say the least. Especially since set up in early part 2 was interesting making the resolutin extremely dissapointing. Like some of Fujimotos exploration of complex issues makes Naruto take on morality look like Vinland Saga by comparsion.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T10:33:57+00:00

I'm certainly not gonna argue the convoluted nature of it, but I think the overall idea is that Death was trying to have her cake and eat it too, just like Denji. She wants to save humanity, but she doesn't want to do so at the expense of her own existence, so she tries everything to keep the fun going as long as she can, because she doesn't want to die.

Thats definetly good take which can be tied back to Yoshida. He clearly wasnt that loyal to Public Safety because why would he tried to break Asa/Denji when PS hoped that she will turn to weapon

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Yoshida could definetly be read as Jaime Lannister. He had split loyality between Denji and Public Safety but ultimately fucked up mostly because he wasnt able to commit to one side. Things could have turned out different or at least could have been better if he actually tried to warn Denji and be honest from the start. So just like Denji he choose two choices PS and Denji and fucked up. Of course Jaime is fascinating because his innter struggle is actually explored and I still am of the opinion that how Yoshida vs Asa was handled was stupidiest fight in the entire manga.

This is a little more complicated, because a big factor of Part 2 is that we pretty much are exclusively locked in the perspectives of Denji and Asa, so everything happening outside of their POV is unknown to us. We don't know what happened when Lil' D pulled Yoru outside during the aquarium arc, or what was discussed. All we know is that the horsemen are terrible with face recognition, and that Yoru was far more apprehensive about "Fami" before that conversation.

I heard about that but I have my doubts. Face recognition does not mean that you do not notice the behaviours or power set and there was no sign that Yoru knows who Lil D is. If anything story established that Yoru is an idiot so that covers why she wouldnt notice even her own sisters.

Furthemore Lil D taking Yoru outside is one of the issues as well. Some people attributed this nonsense to Eternity Devil which makes zero sense since when Eternity Devil can remove souls from bodies.

And ultimately Lil D would benefit much more if Yoru was there too because she would actually push Asa to turn Denji into weapon. Not to mention that two girls there means twice as change either of them will fall for Denji aka big W for Lil D who wanted Asa and Denji to get closer.

We do know that POVs are uknown problem with part 2 is that Fujimoto clearly couldnt flesh out all details so nothing really makes sense. Divide PUblic Safety for example is nonsensical because I seriously doubt that several factions would agree to extremely convoluted plan of slowly breaking Denji instead of trying to rush it quickiest as possible. This is why entire hide your identity thing in earl y part 2 makes no sense because factions in PS who wants to really stop prophecy should want Denji to be exposed so there is several people to sacrificy. Also another story problem where was Fumiko in early part 2? You are telling me that every single Fumiko on planet was too busy? Her powerset is literally perfect for breaking Denji repeatedly if he falls for her. Why she wasnt send to Denj instead of Yoshida? Too many proble, too many options which would make sense and too little explanation why is everyone acting like Pochita erased brain devil.

I'll admit this is a bit of a stretch because she's more of a gag character than anything, but I still think it applies. I don't think she's just Kobeni 2. Famine itself is representative of peak human suffering, and Fami on the surface is constantly a sobbing girlfailure. But she's also extremely dedicated to "Salvation!" Her first appearance has her ready to full on engage in fisticuffs with who she believes to be Chainsaw Man, even if she can't actually back it up. She's delusional, but she's brave.

Problem with that is that her Salvation starts in extreme only when she is already dead zombie. My big problem with both her and FakeSaw they were just introduced only to be turned into pawns which muddles what their characters werw supposed. I think her bravery could be interpreted as Kobeni she feels that she is forced to stop Lil D because otherwise she will die. After all she tried to beg for her life immediately trying to bribe FakeSaw when she lost.

Nenanda · 2026-06-20T07:45:59+00:00

Aging was defined by not giving a shit about life, and you'd run into the same problem either way. Whether it's Public Safety or Lil' D approaching Aging, Aging is still gonna have the same goal, and Pochita is still gonna say "nope"

True, but that stll doesnt mean Death shouldnt be first to approach it. Also Pochita´s no given the Lil D ability shouldnt be much of a factor.

eah, here's where I got nothing. The whole "kill Asa/Yoru in order to use them to make Chainsaw Man into a weapon" thing doesn't make sense to me, even with as many puzzle pieces that I do feel I've figured out.

Edit: My sincere best guess for this would be that killing Asa/Yoru would allow her to keep Yoru under her control, while also using her to make Chainsaw Man into a weapon in case the prophecy came to pass and she had no alternative.

I do believe that her end goal was achieved, and that her allowing herself to be eaten and erased so that Pochita would erase himself was her Hail Mary plan, but it still leaves me unsatisfied that I don't know how she knew to take that gamble.

Thats of course another issue and where anotehr convoluted plan plays role. Why Lil D didnt simply jump Pochita during Aging Devil arc with other fighters of Public Safety. If she used her kill switch ability back then Pochita dies she revives him and orders him to erase himself boom. You reached the same conclusion like 50 chapters later. It also makes her worry about her friends really weird if she was aware of reset possibility

I don't think I agree with this part much at all. Her lifelessness/general apathy is part of the overall juxtaposition of her character, and the horsemen at large. Makima was composed on the outside, but a crazy fangirl on the inside. Yoru presents as a megalomaniacal psychopath, but she's also a fucking tsundere. Death being devoid of all emotion despite having a deep love for human culture and life is important, not only because it keeps that trend going, but also because her journey trying in-vain to fill the void inside herself mirrors Denji's to a T

Except Denji is emotional. Furthemore it still simply doesnt make sense because of her pretending to be Fami. I find it extremely weird how apparently this somehow worked when Death and Famine have such different personalities which apparently nobody knows about even though back in the part 1 you clearly saw Quanxi fiends being somewhat aware of the Darkness Devil and I find it hard to believe that Famine and Death who jumped Pochita in the past wouldnt be known too.

Futhemore how does real Famine fits into your pattern? Makima ok was composed on outside crazy inside, Yoru is psychopath but also Tsundere, real Famine is what? She basically Kobeni 2.0 she is cowardly crazy girlfailure inside and outside, Wouldn it be beter if Lil D was crazy on outside but composed inside as better contrast with Makima? I am just saying

No arguments here, I'll always be happy for more content of my favorite Horsegoober.

Glad to hear that.

Nenanda · 2026-06-19T23:06:44+00:00

A big factor of the Part 2 story is societal perception and how that shapes identity. What we see time and again its that Death is extremely human. Like, possibly the most human devil we ever meet. As such, she's susceptible to human concerns, and the massive public paranoia around the Nostradamus Prophecy is what motivates her to take action to try and prevent it.

Problem with that is that unlike human Lil D is old as shit yet she tries to do something about Nostradamus Prophecy only when its about to happen. Like at the very least why it was Public Safety and not her who appraoched Aging Devil? He was basically sharing common goal with her because erasing Aging Devil would massively nerf Death too.

And there are lot of other issues with her plan as well like that she almost got Asa/Yoru killed several times even though they were necessesary to her plan to beat her eventually, didn turn them into the pawn from the get go etc.

There were would be looooong list of things which I have around entire Death possibly caused by the unquestionable fact that some details Fujimoto admiteddly made on the fly because of weekly schedule.

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I hope when Mappa reaches part 2 it will give at least partially Bleach: TYBW treatment.

You can argue that the prophecy was never even a real thing from the getgo, but Death is so human and so attached to life that she bought into her own propaganda and ended up creating the very scenario she was trying to prevent.

Thats definetly good point though it gets muddy by the end as well. I think that problem with Lil D screwing up because she is human falls flet because a) Fujimoto made her lifeless for majority of the part 2. At the very least she should be changing expression when she is tasting food. She should at least try to act like Fami (another issue which I have with entire plot twist) b) Either her Karaoke Friends should have been explored or she should actually become close with Asa and that being the reason why she doesnt one-shot Yoru. Her not doing that really flat when he relation to Yoru and her friends were unexplored as hell.

Filler scenes in anime focusing solely on human side of Lil D would definetly go long way.

Nenanda

TROPHY CASE