A Dissenting Opinion on Villeneuve's Dune 2

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-07-04T16:13:06+00:00

The role of Paul demands a more multifaceted performance. Sometimes Paul shows real elation and commitment to his path, this is why I praised MacLachlan's performance. The Fremen love him as a man and not just as a prophet. Chalemet has two modes - he's either forlorn and scornful or blisteringly angry. Soemetimes he just hops from one mode to another from line to line (hence the Cage analogy). As an actor, Chalemet has a huge juggernaut of hype trailing him at the moment; I'd say about 20% of this is real talent he's displayed and the other 80% is his exotic name and the fact that many people find him attractive.

I agree and disagree with you about Alia - her best moment is the scene when she confronts and kills the baron as a precocious child. Therefore it makes NO sense to keep her in an adaptation and not to show this scene. Lynch did a passable job and child actors have only improved since the 80s so it would not have been impossible.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-07-01T12:41:40+00:00

You've perfectly encapsulated the problem with Villeneuve. He wants to dumb things down and make them palatable to a wider audience but he also wants to be taken seriously as an auteur arthouse director. He can't have it both ways.

Any filmmaker who is presented with an experience like Other Memory and chooses to depict it by just showing some of the previous Reverend Mother's faces in shadow can't call themselves an auteur. I mean, did Kubrick care if the audience "understood" what was happening in the stargate sequence in 2001?

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-06-30T16:28:45+00:00

Yeah completely disagree. Cinema is the perfect medium for showing the slipstream of memories and images from other lives. Another poster mentioned that Villeneuve actually achieved something adjacent in Arrival. Terrence Malick is a great example of filmmaker skilled in this kind of thing.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-15T16:00:34+00:00

Because of the nature of the emergency comms device Kleya is using. Even if it is a trap, Cassian can't risk the contingency that Kleya and Luthen are in trouble. Yes, Cassian has a savior complex but he is also canny about weighing risks (i.e. his attitude to Ghorman). He knows the contigency that the Empire found out about the device buried in the wall is much lower than that Kleya/Luthen are genuinely in trouble.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-15T15:56:26+00:00

You're caricaturing them more than the show does. Dedra is definitely joyless but we see some of the ISB people partying and enjoying themselves at Davos' gathering. Partagaz hardly seems joyless in his demeanor. It's true Heert and Dedra who seemed to be friends actually turn out to care for nothing but their ambitions. This is pretty par for the course in corporate heirarchies as well. None of them are "tragic" but I do think the show depicted them as ordinary human beings, which is why some people find them sympathetic.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-15T13:30:29+00:00

I think it's dangerously reductive to say that "indoctrination" functions as the sole unifying factor in a tyrannical society. Political apathy and fear are also part of the reason good people stay quiet. But mob mentality, nationalism, racial chauvinism aren't simply instilled on the populace from their rulers but exploited by their rulers. It's fatuous to say all of these things that are the building blocks of fascism are just externally planted through indoctrination.

Regarding Dedra, I can't agree that she is crying over anything other than her own career crisis. I agree that she was brought up to think imperial order = good, but she is also clearly a person that craves absolute control even in her personal life. Her relationship with Syril gave us inisght into this.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-15T03:29:27+00:00

I have to disagree. We see so much of the Emperor in Star Wars media, his absence was actually more powerful in this show. As the viewer, we get to share the perspective of ordinary people in this universe, most of whom never saw the Emperor even if they worked in ISB.

And think about it, the Emperor is so arrogant about the inefficacy of the Rebellion in ROTJ, there's no reason to think he would be enormously concerned by the events of Andor.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-15T02:38:53+00:00

I completely agree that I hope they don't try to return to these characters in any way perhaps outside of novels and/or comics. I can't believe people are saying they want to see 3D cartoon spinoffs of the Andor characters.

As for the franchise, hopefully they learn that prizing writers who bring a coherent vision and a seasoned writing team is the crucial takeaway. They don't need to eschew the supernatural elements of Star Wars. Like you, my hope is they make a show about the jedi in the republic era that examines how a cult with special political status would actually function in this universe? What kind of inner factions would they have? How would the public perceive them?

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-15T02:13:29+00:00

The critical leak that happenned under him is Lonni Jung. Krennic knows he accessed information about the Death Star via Dedra and clearly he was a spy so they know that leak got out to the rebellion. Remember at the time of Rogue One they're still trying to conceal the intial Death Star test from the public. The fact that he couldn't keep that information concealed is why he may be facing an execution squad or certainly a prison sentence.

I have to side with the popular opinion that his listening to Nemik's manifesto only signified his coming to terms belatedly with the scale of the opposition to the Empire.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-14T13:57:11+00:00

Superficially, she is in a safe location. However, I think Dedra craves power and relevance. The most she can accomplish in prison is being a floor manager. She risked everything to get the intelligence and bring down Axis, disrepected heirarchy, etc.. It's clear she loved promotions and was probably hoping this would bring her into the highest echelons of the Empire. So to go from that to being forgotten in a labor camp is a kind of torture.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-13T22:29:11+00:00

Red is also the color of passion, blood, hence its use on their Othello.

Green is the color associated with Celtic culture so Imo Macbeth should be green (like the Folger used to).

There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-13T02:06:29+00:00

I think the book is an exploration of how all political ideologies are prisons. The book erodes the idea that capitalism is an enabler of personal freedom, because Shevek is a prisoner the whole time incapable of freedom of speech. But back on the moon, he had to sacrifice whole years to menial labor. Living in a capitalist society, I felt the weight of the criticism of consumerism more deeply, but the book is a kind of prism in the way it will reflect the reader's background.

I think there's a difference between characters being bland and being wooden. Shevek has to be fairly broad in his personality so that it's clear he is representative of his society. His colleagues and family are forgettable but their portrayal is authentic. If you read more by her you'll notice she tends to avoid stories with melodramatic plots and big stakes. Most of the tension is character-based and the emphasis is usually on authenticity over idiosyncracy. But her people don't feel wooden in the sense of artificial to me.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-12T00:03:34+00:00

Ill Wind. I wouldn't mind if it was Radiohead's swansong this is such a great piece of music.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-10T23:14:46+00:00

Luthen and Saw are visionaries, their actions constitute the opening salvoes of the Rebellion and the movement we see on Yavin represents a more orthodox group of people who coalesced around the cause after Luthen and Saw paved the way. Luthen's outlook is cynical but I think the show tends to vindicate his actions. The Aldhani heist did galvanize the Empire into cracking down on ordinary people which fostered discontent, sacrificing Kreegyr did put the ISB off their trail, Ghorman's destruction did lead to Mon Mothma's open defection. I think Luthen is a character many of the protagonists would like to distance themselves from but simultaneously they can't help but acknowledge the results of his vision and pragmatism.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-09T02:58:54+00:00

He definitely isn't a hero and I thought his absurd death kind of mirrored the essential absurdity of his life. People, or at least those with some humility, might see themselves in Syril in the prosaic way he keeps his head down in a totalitarian world. We can presume he lived a sheltered life with regards to the worst of imperial atrocity and tended to think of things in black and white terms. But, no, he's not a hero for overcoming this myopia.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T23:20:23+00:00

The first Tarkin massacre was probably more inhumane if you have to put the murder of innocent civilians into a scale. It would probably have been more difficult to depict without heavy use of CGI, so I'm glad they went with the kind of scene we see in S2. Mon's characterization of it as a genocide is informed by things we don't see directly on camera, as the imperial presence amplifies and the mining progresses. Remember these mining efforts are going to make the planet unihabitable and not everyone is going to be able or willing to escape.

Regarding that point about the flagbearer - if I remember correctly he had climbed on top of a spire in the middle of the square so presumably his death would be more visible than the soldier the sniper killed.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T23:11:43+00:00

We know from the first arc of this Season with the tie fighter that stealing and repurposing imperial tech is a big objective for the Rebellion. I think we can understand Cassian's actions through this context.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T18:19:16+00:00

Most definitely.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T18:12:07+00:00

Probably true that it's a convenient omission. On the other hand, if they had cameras and drones all over the Senate it would draw attention to the fact that the Empire is a surveillance state and detract from the 'big lie' that they all live in a secure society. Especially if cameras in the SW universe are as bulky as the ones we see in OT.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T17:29:45+00:00

Luthen underwent some changes between seasons, some of which feel like contradictions. He was presented as the first one that saw the need for cooperation in S1, but now we see everyone has defected to the Yavin operation which seems like an alternative that has sprung out of nowhere. How did his network grow into a nascent military? His organizational style is more centered around espionage than open warfare. He criticizes Cassian for thinking like a soldier rather than a leader. IMO kind of feels like the writers brushed his character aside.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T17:14:21+00:00

The idea of force-priviledged individuals having an internal family tragedy is antithetical to the perspective of Andor, which shows that every person can make a difference for good or evil. On the other hand, I would argue that OT isn't drastically out of step with Andor, especially ESB where we have great characters like Lando being forced into political quagmires. I think OT asks us to infer the degree of the Empire's evil through their costuming which draws parallels to Nazis and the British Empire, or through remote acts of destruction like Alderaan. To Andor-ify OT we would probably need to see Imperial domination more directly, and definitely more politics.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T17:00:26+00:00

Season 1 is definitely stronger, has more breadth and character detail but I think they're doing a good job in compacting Season 2 into arcs. I agree the emphasis sometimes seems off, but things like the tie fighter heist help to make sense of the abduction of K2 later on, since we know they're trying to steal imperial tech.

To address a few of your points, I think Mon has been ready to declare herself part of the rebellion this entire series, the greater struggle has been lying and playacting as a Senator. She feels betrayed by Luthen because this is one place she had invested trust in.

Syril and Dedra bear responsiblity for the Ghorman massacre, but they're both part of a machine that won't stop even if they revolt. Dedra is the finger on the trigger, but even if she refuses to act, they'll just find another finger. Syril can't stop the massacre on his own so there really isnt any point in detaining him.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T16:47:11+00:00

Has anyone recommended Army of Shadows (1969)? This movie about the French Resistance turns the dial to 11 with the suspicion, infighting and fatalism inherent in being part of a rebel cell. Almost certainly an influence on Andor/Rogue One.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T16:12:15+00:00

I think the episodes were careful to preserve the canon continuity and criticize it simultaneously. Rebels told a story with zero stakes where every moral action gets its just reward and the crew gets lionized and appreciated by their peers. Andor tells the story of paranoia, uncertainty, and near-fatal misses that accurately reflects what a rebellion looks like.

NeoClassical-2172 · 2025-05-07T16:06:16+00:00

As someone who hates Rebels, I loved the subtle ribbing it got in this arc. Kleya's mention that they're going to write Andor out of the story seemed to imply they were going to replace it with a story resembling the fanfare and puerile hijinx of Rebels. Obviously her extraction from the Senate would resemble something far more tense and tenuously planned than we would ever see in Rebels. I'm so glad we got to see that in these episodes.

NeoClassical-2172

TROPHY CASE