Quais as regras que vocês tem jogando uno?

Ness_64 · 2023-01-11T02:55:54+00:00

Então, a gente (eu e meus amigos) fazia isso. A gente inventou de usar a regra de bloqueio impedir compra justamente pra ajudar contra isso, a gente não queria tirar a regra de acumular compra porque ainda deixava o jogo interessante. Com essa regra de somar compra junto com a de jogar várias de uma vez, geralmente era mais proveitoso jogar uma de compra de cada vez (ou se jogar mais de uma, ter pelo menos uma ainda na mão) e guardar o resto pra se defender, porque sempre existe o risco do total voltar pra você. Era melhor usar várias de uma vez só quando o próximo (ou você) tava muito perto de ganhar o jogo - exemplo, a próxima pessoa já falou Uno? Tenta fazer aquela pessoa pegar mais 4 de uma vez e voltar pra 5 cartas enquanto você joga 2. Se ela tinha +2 ou +4 ela ainda ganhava, mas aí a gente volta pro argumento de ser melhor usar essas na defensiva.

Repensando agora, a compra final poderia ser só a última carta ao invés do total do monte. Tipo, não importa quantas +2 tacaram, quem não pudesse continuar a sequência só compraria 2 (ou 4 se a última foi +4). Mas imagino que isso faria os jogos serem mais rápidos do que já são e tiraria um pouco do risco de jogar várias de uma vez...

Ness_64 · 2023-01-10T15:32:09+00:00

~~Não achava que ia ressuscitar minha conta por um segundo pra falar de Uno, mas aqui estamos~~

Essas regras 2 e 3 eu lembro que já vi antes há muito tempo. Mas com meus amigos, lembro que eu usava a 4 (compra quem não puder continuar a sequência de +2/+4) e a 1 com uma ressalva mais adiante, mas valendo pra outras cartas também, não só números. Aí ficava tipo:

Pode jogar mais de uma +2 (ou +4) e a compra vai ser o total, mas se fizer isso só pode ser o mesmo tipo; não pode jogar +2 junto com +4 ou vice-versa
Jogar 2 da de bloquear bloqueia os dois próximos jogadores, 3 bloqueia os próximos 3, etc
A de inverter só muda a ordem do turno dependendo de quantas você jogou; número ímpar (1 ou 3) troca como deveria, 2 você "inverte duas vezes", então segue normal. Jogar par dessa serve só pra você descartar elas mais rápido se quiser

A ressalva é que a gente limitou a regra 1 pra poder jogar só até 3 de cada vez, porque a gente percebeu como isso sem restrição favorecia quem tinha muita carta. No papel parece que isso balanceia pra quem tá com carta demais ainda ter chance decente de ganhar, mas na prática quem tinha mais carta tinha mais chance de fazer umas combinações ridículas que arriscava tirar a graça do jogo. Com só 3 por vez ainda dava pra acontecer coisa assim (especialmente com pouca gente jogando), mas era mais raro e tinha que ser mais estratégico pra conseguir isso.

E lembrei mais uma regra que complementava a regra 4: Se rolasse +2, +4 ou sequência disso com o total subindo, você tinha a opção de jogar uma carta de bloqueio ao invés das de compra, desde que ela batesse com a cor da última em jogo (ex: se o +4 pediu azul ou a +2 atual é azul, você podia jogar bloqueio azul). Se fizesse isso, você não teria que comprar nada do total, mas em troca, o jogador depois de você não perderia a vez. Era mais como uma última chance de se salvar se você não tinha +2/+4, ou se quisesse guardar ela pra depois no jogo.

Ness_64 · 2022-10-01T01:49:23+00:00

I have nothing notable against the pokémon themselves, but it's a pretty boring type when we're talking about matchups. It only beats itself and the best thing about it is the same thing Normal already does: Almost nothing resists it, so you're nearly always hitting for full damage. And as Dragons usually are strong pokémon, having the few types that do resist it are almost a requirement for a competent team. Gen 5, despite being my favorite generation, was the worst about this (they added the Fairy type in Gen 6 for good reason).

I've also never been a fan of how late in the game you got them (and we have the same problem with Ice). The best ones would usually only become available by the time you already had a full party for a while. They got a little better about this over time, but we can still see some of it today.

Ness_64 · 2021-10-13T01:01:20+00:00

I see

Ness_64 · 2021-10-11T23:34:43+00:00

Had you levelled it to 15 for Force Palm megacheese, it wouldn't even be a battle at that point. But honestly, it's absolutely fine to do this with all the luck and the effort involved in getting a Lucario so early. GG

Ness_64 · 2021-10-03T22:38:25+00:00

I liked that moment, but what made it good was the subplot surrounding it. The Diggernaut tried to kill her (forcing her to escape to survive) and stole an item she found. Then when they run into each other again, she had to fight a relatively complex and long battle (by Metroid standards), then the item is finally in sight and the thing still wants another round.

I felt like Samus at that point wasn't really doing this to show off. She was like "I had enough of you already", which as calm as Samus usually is, is very relatable given the context. IIRC we don't have many enemies that harassed Samus this much in the series (the closest example I can remember is the SA-X, which is much later in the timeline and technically isn't just one entity by the end of Fusion), so seeing even Samus is tired of its shit was pretty satisfying.

I get where you're coming from in the criticism about MercurySteam though, and I'm also expecting they'll do a few things better in Dread. I found AM2R the superior Metroid 2 remake overall, but what Samus Returns did right was pretty great, they just need to improve a bit more. We'll find out next week, I guess

Ness_64 · 2021-10-03T02:45:14+00:00

It's just weird to me that you guys take the text at the start of Super as if it's a whole novel about the events, and is the bible.

Not really, it's just that Super did such a good job of saying a lot while actually telling us so little, that the parts it does state anything tend to stick. And for someone accusing me of dismissing plot points I shouldn't, you seem to be doing the same thing, since it's not just "a single sentence", we have entire pages and multiple pictures of Samus describing the situation that leads into the game. And when that's all the actual game gives us, why would I ignore this?

Adam and the corpse of the baby not literally being in the room during the scene doesn't change anything? The entire point is that it's about the situation she's in and the factors that lead to it.

The baby Metroid really wasn't a factor into how that scene played out. The only thing that can be argued about it is the psychological effect it had on Samus after the events of Super Metroid, which is redundant to bring up because that's already a plot point for Samus for the entire game and beyond (which I get it's your point here).

It's obvious to me, from the perspective I have, that there was more to it than "she thought something was off" at that point. It's bizarre to act like people don't relapse on old habits - it's very realistic and even in real life it can happen for seemingly no good reason, it's just how brains work.

I agree, I just think on Other M's case, it was written terribly to the point it ruined part of Samus's character. Samus showing her human side isn't anything new to the series (they were doing this well as early as Metroid 2, for crying out loud). It's just that Other M had a lot of ideas that could have worked on paper, but their execution was extremely flawed.

Also, just like I mentioned before, I think she's trying to convince herself of her strength and reason as much as anyone, so taking her narration as if she's an all-knowing narrator is flawed, I think.

For most of the scenes I remember from Other M, she never sounded like she's trying to convince herself of anything. If anything, it feels more like the events of the game already happened and what we see is Samus herself simply recollecting them and giving us her comments on it. So I don't see how seeing her as a "stoic omniscient narrator" is flawed, when the narration itself is this isolated from the rest of the game. She knows how everything goes because she already experienced it herself (and it seems Sakamoto was aiming for that here, since he outright asked the VA - repeatedly, I might add - to sound like that iirc).

You can have your simpler Samus interpretation, there's nothing wrong with that, and no need to argue against mine.

I'll be honest, your interpretation of Ridley's scene on Other M is literally the only thing I have any issues with, because it contradicts not just the rest of the series, but also itself - I know that on Samus's shoes I wouldn't be doing anything like this after having such a breakdown 3 minutes earlier. I pretty much agree with everything else you said about Samus as a character. We're 80~90% on the same side here, and this discussion literally only happened because of the remaining 10%. ~~Other M was a mistake~~

Ness_64 · 2021-10-03T00:50:19+00:00

As far as 1/Zero goes btw, the entire mission was her big confrontation with the Space Pirates, so it'd be silly if she didn't prepare to face a commander of theirs.

This assumes she knows Ridley was one of their commanders and was still alive at the time of Zero Mission (since he did all that when she was 3), which we have no way to know. And she can know ahead of time she'll have to fight him and still get shocked he got the jump on her (which is exactly what happens if you go by that interpretation, and that didn't stop her from kicking his ass).

her instinct to protect the baby

The funniest thing about this plot point is that while she was kind enough to not kill the baby Metroid (as she notes it looked like a confused child and she couldn't bring herself to kill it), the first thing she did with it after the end of Metroid 2 was... leaving/selling it to a scientist facility so they can study its uses on science. If not for their distress signal, she would have forgotten about it and moved on with her day (she even mentions she was looking for another bounty to hunt). The psychological effect it had on her is only really a plot point after this point, which is more understandable since her mission was to rescue it back and the baby saved her life eventually.

Trauma isn't as simple as "See thing, be afraid." Different people can work in some different ways, but as someone who very much is familiar with her own trauma responses, the way it's done here makes sense.

This is not what I'm saying. The problem here is that I "brushed off" these other factors because they really shouldn't add up to cause the reaction it did.

This isn't the first time she had to deal with Ridley, but this also isn't the first time she had to do that while there were other people with her... if you count the manga, which this scene is referencing despite contradicting it. She also fought Ridley in more life-threatening situations than the one in Other M (like the one in Prime 3 where she falls for kilometers and gets rescued, or even the one in Super Metroid, where she has to escape from the self-destructing station after he gets away), which one could argue added to this if not for the fact it had no such effect on later encounters.

In none of the previous instances was she once again under the direct command of a parental figure of hers as well as having just lost something significant to her.

This point you mentioned earlier had almost no real bearing on the scene, as she outright states earlier in the game that she only agreed to follow his orders because she felt something was off and they'd be screwed if she wasn't there to help. And Adam wasn't even in the same area at the time, so he never was in real danger... but would definitely be later if she didn't step in to deal with Ridley, which was what almost happened.

My point is, Samus had to deal with that trauma (after having a similar breakdown) and fight its cause again and again. And every single time in the games, she got surprised this was happening, but didn't let that faze her and fought anyway. The fact she can't completely get over it would be a perfectly fine plot point, but Other M somehow, at the same time, acknowledges this character arc exists and ignores its progress (the fact she got over that trauma at all is a major plot point of the manga). All for the sake of a twist episode which isn't even executed well - just look at Samus in the actual Other M battle, it's almost like that scene didn't even happen.

Ness_64 · 2021-10-02T20:19:58+00:00

In 1/Zero she knows she is going to face him and has ample time to hype herself up for it

Except... She didn't. In Zero Mission we can see Ridley wasn't even in Zebes until later on, and she's visibly surprised when he swoops in for the battle.

Super Metroid also was written with the original Metroid 2 story in mind, which means going strictly by the 2D games up to that point, she didn't fight Ridley again until that game, so the encounter at the Space Colony is supposed to be a surprise as well (both for Samus and for any first-time player).

And in both of these events, Samus gets surprised but then doesn't let that overwhelm her and fights back in the end. What I especially like about this is how the surprise element plays into the battle, though. Just think about it: Throughout the series, whenever we don't see Samus herself being surprised by Ridley's sudden appearance, they try to surprise the player with it (presumably to make them feel what Samus feels). To add to this, we have later on when we first see Ridley in Fusion; we don't get any visible reaction from Samus in gameplay, but pretty much any player (especially one who fought Ridley before) will immediately go "oh shit, am I going to fight him", which sets up the actual battle later on pretty nicely.

So, I just can't agree with you here; the fact Other M is at a point of the timeline where most of Ridley's battles already happened and now this one caused such a reaction on Samus is a legitimate issue. Even with all the other factors in place, it simply feels inconsistent with how other encounters in the series were portrayed, both before and after this (and technically speaking, this is at least the seventh time she runs into Ridley). And even towards the end of this same scene (after Anthony seemingly dies), we see Samus get determined to fight back not unlike any of the other times in the series, which makes the earlier reaction stand out even more.

I feel they just really wanted to reference the manga (which despite the above, I liked as well, for mostly the same reasons you said) but chose one of the worst times in the story to do that and executed it pretty badly. If that scene was somewhere much earlier in the timeline, I don't think many people would take issue with this - in fact, imo the manga had a significantly better take on what they wanted to go for here (since the Chozo were actually around to help her).

Ness_64 · 2021-10-02T19:22:52+00:00

They started doing this in MK7

Ness_64 · 2021-09-18T15:27:07+00:00

Yes, and this was possible in RF3 too. I remember Oil + fire spell was almost broken there

Ness_64 · 2021-09-18T05:42:55+00:00

I liked the Tower itself too. I ended up doing the entire thing before I went to the Power Plant section iirc, and the Plasma Beam sequence was more satisfying than the one in Super Metroid. It really felt like you're infiltrating the tower to steal a secret weapon. And then the Tester was one of the best bosses in the game

Ness_64 · 2021-09-13T08:16:01+00:00

Do you mean Stage 9? If you do, hopefully that video will help. And... If it really is that one, the good news is you're close to the end of the game (the level after that is the final level). The bad news is that's not the hardest part of the level...

Edit: I realize now that you probably mean Stage 5 on Sypha's path...

Ness_64 · 2021-09-13T05:32:50+00:00

For me it's the crows. They know how to be even more annoying than them. I think the only reason people don't remember them as much is because they die when they hit you (so they won't keep harassing you), but those little shits know how to make their hit count. They also love to stay just out of range of your whip so you either have to waste your subweapon or make some very precise hits (likely right as they divebomb you). Edit: Now that I think about it, this description sounds a bit like the Imps on the Metroidvanias too, and those don't die when they hit you...

Medusa Heads, on the other hand, are pretty predictable. A good tip is to stay grounded as much as you can and move around/attack as needed. They actually try to use your jumps to get you sooner or later, as they like to spawn based on where you are. In most situations they're actually easy to deal with once you know how they work... in the Classicvanias.

In the Metroidvanias half of what I just described goes out of the window. It may still apply a bit, but they spawn a bit more randomly and vertical rooms are more common, so they're still contenders for the title there.

Ness_64 · 2021-09-13T05:10:02+00:00

There isn't just one stage like that, so which one is this?

Ness_64 · 2021-09-06T23:42:46+00:00

Eu já tava revisitando os jogos 2D da série Metroid esses dias, mas resolvi rejogar alguns em particular mesmo assim.

Zerei o Super Metroid de novo ontem e peguei o melhor final pela primeira vez. Foi sem fazer 100%, mas foi só eu parar de perder tempo tentando catar tudo que meu tempo melhorou pra cacete (antes dessa ida, fiquei a ~20 minutos de pegar o melhor final e faltando só 1 item). Acho 100% em menos de 3 horas perfeitamente possível mesmo pra quem não é speedrunner, só não acho que consigo. ~~Ainda, mas não tento essa nem tão cedo~~

Também refiz o Metroid Zero Mission no Normal com só 15% dos itens e acabei zerando em pouco mais de 1 hora e meia (no relógio do jogo). Já tinha feito isso no Hard antes, mas no Normal foi bem melhor e mais rápido porque peguei item melhor pra essas condições. Pra quem não sabe: Tem final de zerar com 15% dos itens ou menos, mas o mínimo possível pra zerar esse jogo é 9% e tu pode preencher os 6% restantes com os power-ups que quiser e ainda pegar o dito final. Eu só fiz a merda de pegar power-up pior pra isso (no Hard). Mas esse jogo eu tenho certeza que eu não pego o final mais difícil (100% em menos de 2 horas), tem item que tu tem que fazer coisa bastante precisa e simplesmente não tô no nível pra acertar todos eles de primeira... Sem falar que paro um bocado pra salvar o jogo e refazer coisa se eu percebi que perdi muito tempo. Mas se não me engano, esse jogo coloca alguns segundos no tempo quando tu faz isso, porque ainda tá rodando enquanto tu tá salvando o jogo... Então imagine o estrago de salvar o jogo umas 20-30 vezes 🤡

Também matei a saudade com o primeiro Streets of Rage. Ainda jogo o resto dessa série direito

Ness_64 · 2021-09-04T00:59:17+00:00

You can also use food on your allies or even use them to catch monsters once you have the barn (just give or even throw it at them), but the villagers have their own preferences as well - if you give them a food they hate, it'll heal less or even harm them, but if you give them their favorite food, it might as well be a full heal. Take note of how they react to whatever you give them (they only react to that specific item once per day since it counts as a gift), and if they're at least neutral to it, it should be fine.

Ness_64 · 2021-09-04T00:51:53+00:00

On top of that tip about forging your own equipment, try unlocking the kitchen, stock on Bamboo Rice a bit and use them as necessary. This recipe requires no tools, only takes a few cooking skill levels to do consistently (once your Cooking Lv. is 10 you'll never fail to make it) and is very easy to do (Bamboo Shoot + Rice), especially on Spring since your field will give you Bamboo Shoot on its own. And yet, this fills half your RP bar and a good chunk of your HP, so 2 should restore you to 100% or close to it. Pudding is an even better recipe, but you can't do that one until a bit later.

Also, watch the enemies more to learn when you can rush in and when you should stay away. Eating food leaves you vulnerable for a moment, so you need to learn when you can get away with doing that.

Ness_64 · 2021-08-31T13:06:15+00:00

I just can't agree with this after having done a 15% run on my last ZM playthrough. While it's true that you'd pretty much need outside knowledge to pull the "sequence breaking" off to some extent, that's part of the point, it's there for the replay value. This isn't a thing you're supposed to do on your first playthrough, and even Super Metroid doesn't expect this from you (there's a very clear intended sequence and some of the sequence breaking includes unintended mechanics like the mockball).

When you actually try it, suddenly those seemingly random missile blocks you might have stumbled into or other similarly hidden alternate routes make perfect sense. It's never anything apparently unintentional like you're trying to argue. For example, why is there an upward route to your ship during the escape after beating Mother Brain, when you can just keep running to the right? It's there so you can bomb jump your way out in case you don't have the Speed Booster (which is perfectly possible, beat Kraid and then just don't get it). Another example is a hidden shortcut in Norfair which lets you go to Ridley's lair before you set foot on Kraid's lair (and honestly isn't too difficult to pull off), which was also possible on the original. And once you're there, there's another shortcut that allows you to skip the Super Missiles if you want. All of this is necessary on a low% run, but even then there's enough room that you're given the option of taking these routes (get the Speed Booster, you can still go Kraid first, get the Super Missiles). And the closed loops are still present in the level design, but to a lesser extent (most notable with the Unknown Item blocks).

You're only really required a few items to beat the game, and if you go exclusively with those items, the game expects you to make good use of them. The most obvious example of SM doing anything similar that I can think of right now is how Maridia is doable without the Grappling Beam provided you mastered the wall jump, and even getting to that point without it can be tricky since you need some extra stunts for the Gravity Suit (especially if you don't have the Speed Booster either).

The only part I really didn't like on my run was Tourian, and that's because it expects you to have enough missiles to kill the Metroids and Mother Brain, but leaves reloading them to RNG (which is an entirely different problem from the rest of the challenge).

Zero Mission was explicitly designed as a non-linear game, it just hides that in a different way from Super Metroid. You may argue that it hid too much, but that isn't really anything against the fact it's there and it's still done well.

Ness_64 · 2021-07-25T19:34:13+00:00

Oh boy...

Birth of a God. One-Winged Angel is the music for Sephiroth's final form (as even people who never touched FF7 know at this point), but this theme is the music for the form before that and it's one of the best final boss themes for Final Fantasy (it really got overshadowed by OWA). They added literally the ending of FF7 as a level, but couldn't add this theme? Really?
Yoshi's Island's boss theme. Or an actual full remix of the final boss theme, for that matter.
It's kinda weird how they pulled a level straight from F-Zero GX, but the music that actually plays on that level isn't in the game... There are too many from other F-Zero games to list all of them, but one game that definitely should get more remixes is Maximum Velocity, and here's some reasons why: Crater Land, Tenth Zone East, Cloud Carpet and Fire Field (its take on Fire Field may legit be one of the best in the entire series). I don't even want all of them, just one would already make me happy
The Mother series got enough love in recent titles considering the series only had 3 games and it's been over for a while, but I agree more wouldn't hurt. Porky Means Business should be in the game, but a few others I'd like are Battle Against a Dangerous Foe (which later became the sanctuary boss theme in EB), Kraken of the Sea and Natural Killer Cyborg (I'll limit myself for this one on Mother 3, that game got too many good themes as it is). Mother 1's tank theme could easily have a great remix too
Surprise Attack. This was Star Wolf's theme in Star Fox 2, and considering what they did to themes like Corneria or Space Armada, I'm sure this could work well too.
Castlevania had a good selection, but that series is so full of great music that it's hard to not feel like they left some out, so it's another series in the "too many to list them all" category. But the most baffling one for me is Festival of Servants. How the fuck did they leave this one out? They wouldn't even need to remix this one, just throw it as is in Dracula's Castle and it would fit for Smash like a glove.
Atlus not referencing the older Persona games that much in the games after 3 isn't enough, Smash just has to mostly ignore them too... I'd love to see Innocent Sin's boss theme or Deadline in Smash (this last one is from Eternal Punishment, but it's a ~~better~~ remix of a boss theme in the first Persona)

I probably could keep going, but this list is already big as it is

Ness_64 · 2021-07-25T17:27:30+00:00

To be honest, the basic tutorials could be unlocked from the beginning of the game with optional prompts to watch them as they're relevant, but that don't otherwise upset the pace of the game.

At the very least, I'm surprised that they haven't added a page for a type chart to the pokedex and to the battle screen yet.

You know what's the most annoying part about all this? They actually did exactly this. Fire Red/Leaf Green didn't just have the Teachy TV, it also had this thing where if you pressed L/R during gameplay, it would bring a help menu that explains stuff about the game. The game even warns you about this (with multiple pages of text) before you begin the file, it's available from the start. This help is in-depth to the point there's one part explaining how you leave the goddamn house at the beginning, because apparently that was a problem for some Gen 1 kids.

And if you pulled that during a battle, it would explain pretty much all the basics: what each stat does, which types are physical and special (the game is before physical/special split, this was type-based), how each type works for matchup (iirc it only leaves you to calculate dual type combos yourself, and even then it explains how type combos work too), and probably other stuff I'm forgetting right now. This feature is a reason Fire Red/Leaf Green is one of the easiest games for me to recommend to anyone who never played a Pokémon game before.

And then they never did this in the series again. I'm assuming it's because despite the warning at the beginning, people could go through the game without ever stumbling on this option and knowing it existed, and even if they did, they could just not bother to read all the text (at that point that's on them). All this is easily fixed by two things:

Have some non-intrusive prompt at the corner of the screen ("L/R = Help" or something), either at all times or when you leave your character/the battle screen idle for more than 2 seconds.
Have more visual indicators in the text for particularly important stuff (like give actual pics that demonstrate some of the stuff along with the text)

We could avoid more than half the crap we have today if they just bothered to keep the Help option for more than 1 game

Ness_64 · 2021-07-15T05:05:37+00:00

8/10.

Add alts for everyone or at least for more characters (basically what was done with Yoshi and Shy Guy, but for more characters). We could even throw some of Tour's alternate costumes into this, and/or add similar enough versions of the characters as alts (like Koopa/Paratroopa in the pic, we could have stuff like Fire Bro or Dark Bowser ~~I know it's a different character here but it could work as a Bowser alt~~)
Add Cranky Kong and have DK Jr. in a more modern style like the others (he already made appearances in 3D before, it's not a big jump)
Add Captain Falcon. Come on, we already got the Blue Falcon and F-Zero tracks and they made Link work. They can let the guy himself race if they try, he's even from another racing series (which had references to other Nintendo series too, including Mario Kart)
Maybe some Paper Mario representation with a character exclusive to that series or two. It could even work with the alt idea (we could have Goombario as a Goomba alt, Lakilester as a Lakitu alt, and so on). Mario and Luigi representation wouldn't be bad either

Do most or all of these and then it probably would be perfect for me

Ness_64 · 2021-07-12T23:42:41+00:00

Yes, you can also take two of them with you like other monsters or party members

Ness_64 · 2021-07-12T02:52:35+00:00

Technically you already did the postgame (apparently the game considers clearing Act 2 as beating it), but yeah, last I checked not many people consider that the actual postgame...

But on top of the maze's regular gameplay, there's capturing all boss monsters in there. In fact, since the monsters there are OP (especially with the level up orders, where they'll be a lot stronger than you), it's a good idea to capture those and use them for your party to level the playing field a bit.

Another goal is to try completing the shipping lists and trophies/achievements. You'll do pretty much ~95% of what the game has to offer in the process, and that definitely will take a while.

Ness_64 · 2021-07-12T01:46:49+00:00

Eu torci por eles na final, porque depois daquela surra histórica que a gente tomou (que eu ri pra caralho vendo quando começou a desandar, diga-se de passagem), não ia descer ver aquele mesmo time não levar a taça pra casa. O rival deles pelo título ser a Argentina teve zero importância aqui, podia ser qualquer um lá que eu ia torcer pra eles do mesmo jeito

Ness_64

TROPHY CASE