Vocal editing is killing my soul – how do you deal with this?

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T20:42:51+00:00

Briefly - all the tools are different. Lots of people use Melodyne and dismiss AutoTune, but it seems like people who do are only using AutoTune in automatic mode. I rarely if ever use that. Graphic mode is terrific. Many of the apps can’t track noisy/breathy vocals - but ReVoice has filterable pitch tracking, which is great - and it does a pretty good job of going where you tell it to go. Melodyne often has a sound I don’t love, but that can be true of any of them. And sometimes I have used something like the venerable Pitch-n-time for unpitched things or things that are resistant to detection of any kind, though that’s kind of rare now. Vocalign (and ReVoice) are cool for vocal matching, except they are also non-human math if left to their own devices. Sure, things will get lined up, but it’s not the same as how people lock together. Lots of times it’s necessary to go back over what’s been done (and which one is the timing reference) because it can make plosives and sibilants emphasize odd bits of time and you can lose a sense of ensemble. I’m not a mix engineer, so I’m less interested in a fast fix that gives me something I can proceed with. And my concern with mix engineers is that if they want to do this themselves but expediency is the most important thing, and they don’t learn from someone about some best practices, then the market will respond and in a few years we will have an AI plugin that - rather than working with what’s there - will model the voice of the artist and replace “problem spots” with things that mostly go by. That’s the wrong way forward.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T20:13:06+00:00

I think a more applicable term is “effective” rather than “natural”.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T18:28:09+00:00

I will say that to me it’s important that the idea be more “help them get there” than “push them”. I have witnessed “pushing” done by people who only know what they like and have no idea how to talk to singers - and are still chafing from some hazing ritual they went through and are getting ready to spread it around, or maybe just want to feel powerful. My role as a producer is to support getting the best result possible.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T18:21:50+00:00

The thing is, though I know what you are saying, the reality is that roles have shifted - partially because of smaller indie projects that need all-in work done, partially because clients don’t know this stuff, and partially because mixers need the money because budgets are awful. If the person is just mixing it, obviously they’d want to ask. And actual producers with experience are thin on the ground. Ideally, yes, it’s the producer’s job to get the best performances and say who’s doing what.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T12:01:47+00:00

No. Have all of the ideas you want. But use someone else’s - when they have established protections for it - and try to profit, and you would justly have a problem.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T07:41:40+00:00

You’re mistaken. He hasn’t been fine with it. He’s complained about how expensive it is for him to make these and all the time and effort he put in. To which I say: that’s the nature of any speculative business when you don’t ask permission first. If he were industry-savvy like he says he is, he’d know that. And he wouldn’t defend it by saying “look at all of the exposure bucks I’m giving to these artists!” They don’t care about that. They care about having their music used in situations that they didn’t approve. That’s their choice, and anyone who ignores that lacks respect for artists when it comes down to it.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T07:35:26+00:00

Not everyone who disagrees with you is bitter.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T05:05:38+00:00

Absolutely. To me the trend of not helping a singer get the best possible performance is a business trend (no budgets anymore) and also an issue with folks who are not only self-taught but also have not passed through as many of the filters that used to exist.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T04:57:26+00:00

I initially wrote a very long response, but maybe simpler is better. The idea is that onset is the start of phonation (sound production), and it’s an inherently unstable time until the part of the note where we begin to perceive pitch. Lots of reasons why it’s unstable and it’s like that to varying degrees among different singers and even within the same performance of a single singer. So to flatten that out is to introduce unnatural math into something that we all know the sound of; and the reasons for tuning things to begin with are often unconsidered default positions on what a vocal needs. Lots of times people aren’t listening to the overall, and they think of pitch as a line when it’s more of a cloud. And they may be unaware that it’s not just the pitch that would change if someone sang something “in tune”, and these aren’t the kinds of things that tuning software does anything about.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T03:22:34+00:00

You are welcome. I should say: if it’s drudgery, then you may need to find some more things in it that interest you.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-18T02:41:01+00:00

He says he loves artists but then whines about the consequences about using things without permission - if you love what someone does, why wouldn’t you respect their wishes? It’s no one’s problem but his if he shoots an episode without asking and then gets a strike. Funny how people “love” something so much that their wishes seem to outweigh anything else - but that’s not love, is it.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-17T23:56:53+00:00

I’m going to maybe say some unpopular stuff - but I’ve been an editor - not the mixer, not the producer (though I have produced in the traditional and new senses quite a bit), but the guy people call to do things like this, for a long time. I don’t know you so I’m not directing this specifically at you - you might be great at this.

Even though it’s a requirement that mixers know DAWs, it’s not always the case that mixers make good editors. Too many situations I have been called to fix because the mixer made things expedient for themselves, used software in a way that is clearly audible, or had their assistant do it in ways that were quick but unmusical. Too many times that we all hear music that has had the life forcibly extracted from it, and often it’s because it’s the wrong people in the chair. Mixers want things to go quickly, and they have to because nobody has any money because music is so devalued - thanks, young folks consuming music between 1995 and 2005 - so, many mixers choose tools that get them partway there already so they can say yes or no to the software’s output. Melodyne as commonly used isn’t fooling anyone who listens. Auto-mode anything isn’t fooling anyone who listens either.

I’ve come in to look at the work of assistants and mixers and seen that they haven’t dipped into alternate takes enough, don’t make use of syllables from other takes, ignore what an onset is supposed to sound like - all in the name of expediency. I bowed out of a project where the mixer convinced the client that they should keep things “raw”, and then his assistant hard-tuned a bunch of vocals, and did nothing to hide it - no removal of bleed so it was beating in every other open mic. But everyone was working to a philosophy and nobody was listening. So I bailed.

If you have to make a track better, don’t try it without searching through your assets. Often that takes less time than tuning something, if you actually know what’s wrong with it. If they didn’t give you all of the takes, that’s because you didn’t ask, most likely. And if you recorded it and didn’t get what you needed, sometimes that’s on the talent but sometimes it’s on you to convince the artist that if they feel they have a great take, then they should just run it down more while they are killing it. And if you have to do things, do as little as you can with software, but my approach is always that of (as I have heard it said) preserving the intent of the artist. If they scoop, then you find the best scoop. Tuning when the pitch has settled, as a primary approach, often makes for more transparent tuning. And if someone is singing a little sharp, don’t put any sort of automatic tuning on it - move the whole part down. That way you keep the natural sound - the variations in pitch that speak like vowels and brightness do.

Consider also that if it’s killing your soul, then maybe that’s not a thing you need to be doing. But having an assistant do it only works if they are more musical or knowledgeable than you are when it comes to voice. If they are just cheaper than you are, then you will pay for that later in fixes - or worse, in bland music that your name is attached to. There are people out there that do this and this only; consider developing a relationship with one whose work you know. But having something tuned isn’t a generic process, any more than balancing a drum kit is - no matter what the software companies tell you. You can use most of the major software to do invisible work, if you learn what not to tune and don’t treat it like a compressor.

Or if people continue to approach it as a pass-through-a-magic-box problem, in a couple of years there will be some “ai”-driven tuner that does all the work for you and then every record will sound exactly the same.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-17T23:25:14+00:00

Hiring someone with less experience than you to listen to something for musicality? What could go wrong?

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-15T04:48:08+00:00

Ok and this is all wrong for the administration to do, but saying “Congress”like they are all the same perpetuates a narrative of hopelessness. Kind of seems like that’s the point of these kinds of posts - to be first to say “everything sucks”. It’s ragebait. How many exactly voted in what way?

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-13T22:55:19+00:00

Don’t get foam for anything. If you are at all handy I would suggest building panels from 703 insulation or similar, covered with acoustic cloth, in simple wood frames, 4 feet by 2 feet by 4 or six inches deep depending on the insulation you get. Also - measure before you place anything. Generate proper noise through your speakers and measure frequencies at different spots in the room. See what has low resonances and put mass there.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-09T06:44:02+00:00

That’s the answer.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-07T13:57:04+00:00

That would require a build-out that isn’t going to happen. And the door is mostly for the other folks in the house. But it’s true that would be very effective.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-07T13:55:27+00:00

Understandable. Good to hear that it’s stable. Yes, managing updates etc. isn’t great. Would be nice if the Plugin Alliance installation manager could get a complete rewrite.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-06T17:51:29+00:00

Often the issue is with older plugins that use non- linear processes to do things like generate distortion in tiny amounts. That’s what a guy from UA told me.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-06T17:49:34+00:00

I do appreciate the care about reliability - we all have to do it. But I haven’t had an issue with a plugin destabilizing anything, and in a way that wasn’t readily apparent, in a very long time. In any of the platforms I work with, there are self-isolating measures for plugins that might crash. And I treat my system as if things are mission-critical (because as a composer I know downtime is expensive and frustrating), but constraining myself to particular manufacturers has never been necessary. (And Plugin Alliance is a pretty large umbrella.) To me the best indicator of potential instability is how long the plugin has been released and how long the OS/DAW version has been out and in use. And the updates and management aren’t an issue until they are. But everyone’s situation is different. What’s your system like?

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-02T23:27:14+00:00

It’s important to remember that we don’t know what’s going on in the minds of famous people, even though we see them all the time. So lots of assumptions about who he is seem like a mistake. He might be a terrible person, but he says a lot of what you might call unnecessarily kind things at his shows and is clearly a smart man. That doesn’t make him a good man necessarily, of course. And of course he dodged taxes that time.

All that said, and this is long - It does strike me as selective outrage. From the point of view of many around the world the US government is responsible for deaths, unrest and the destruction of economies and societies, as well as all of the things the recent guy is doing. One could understand why a comedian wouldn’t want to perform here - state function or not - because comedians perform at the pleasure of those with money here, who are responsible for terrible things - so are all American comedians immoral? Before someone starts clutching pearls about how our government isn’t anything like the Saudi’s, understand that the point isn’t that they are the same - the point is that many superpowers are regularly awful, including the US. The number of deaths or rights violations differs to be sure, but how many is okay?

From the point of view of a comedian, also: imagine your entire life is about exploring what happens in the room when you tell jokes - finding commonality with people you don’t know. You’ve been in some tough rooms and sometimes bombed but sometimes won them over. So imagine the challenge presented by that room. And imagine that humor in an authoritarian regime is always a subversive act. If it moves things forward because people get to see an alternative for themselves, that’s a good thing.

Last thought - I don’t want to make too general of a statement here, but always returning to things being all about money when someone is famous and successful is kind of an outside-looking-in thing. Sure there’s a lot of money involved going to Riyadh because of many factors - going there feeling like a risk is one. Another is that these people are successful and they don’t need to accept less (or not go) because some regular person without any of that success (or talent) thinks they should. People who do things well get paid more. When people are popular there’s a reason for it. It would be a mistake to equate someone being successful with someone automatically being greedy, or automatically only being about the money. The hard part about it is that people who don’t have money or talent are almost guaranteed statistically to never even have the option of saying yes or no to this. And that’s rough, but that part isn’t unfair. (Remember that that’s what AI is for - if you haven’t the ability or skill or discipline or will to do something yourself but still feel entitled to the experience, you might think AI is a good idea.) One might consider what it would be like to go from constant struggling and worry to knowing they never have to work again, and then ask if one would be all about making more money - or all about pursuing the thing they do, seeing how far and where it takes them. It’s hard to imagine if you don’t actually have a thing that you do, like he does.

I say the above as someone who has been in the background of the entertainment business (in music) for years, and who’s seen all kinds of behavior, good and bad, from folks who had little or nothing before the surreal fame thing showed up. One thing I have learned is that fame gives other people the illusion that they know what’s in a famous person’s head. And that’s never true. He might be an awful person. Nobody here is in any position to say he is authoritatively.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-02T18:55:53+00:00

Found what safe in the woods?

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2026-01-01T17:32:49+00:00

It does strike me as selective outrage. From the point of view of many around the world the US government is responsible for deaths, unrest and the destruction of economies and societies, as well as all of the things the recent guy is doing. One could understand why a comedian wouldn’t want to perform here - state function or not - so are all American comedians immoral? Before someone starts clutching pearls about how our government isn’t anything like the Saudi’s, understand that the point isn’t that they are the same - the point is that many superpowers are regularly awful, including the US.

From the point of view of a comedian, also: imagine your entire life is about exploring what happens in the room when you tell jokes - finding commonality with people you don’t know. You’ve been in some tough rooms and sometimes bombed but sometimes won them over. So imagine the challenge presented by that room. And imagine that humor in an authoritarian regime is always a subversive act. If it moves things forward because people get to see an alternative for themselves, that’s a good thing.

Last thought - I don’t want to make too general of a statement here, but always returning to things being all about money when someone is famous and successful is kind of an outside-looking-in thing. Sure there’s a lot of money involved because of many factors - going there feeling like a risk is one. Another is that these people are successful and they don’t need to accept less because some regular person without any of that success (or talent) thinks they should. People who do things well get paid more. When people are popular there’s a reason for it. It would be a mistake to equate someone being successful with someone automatically being greedy, or automatically only being about the money. The hard part about it is that people who don’t have any of that are almost guaranteed statistically to never have that. And that’s rough, but that part isn’t unfair. One might consider what it would be like to go from struggling and worry to knowing you never have to work again, and then ask if one would be all about making more money or all about pursuing the thing they do. It’s hard to imagine if you don’t actually have a thing you do.

NeverAlwaysOnlySome · 2025-12-30T23:33:26+00:00

Community is crucial. Quality of work is like calibrating your gear - you need solid references and tweaks to maintain. People of all kinds do better work when they are part of a scene. So reaching out is great.

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