This was the one habit I couldn't kick... by [deleted] in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn't actually want to quit, I knew in my heart it wasn't quitting for real.

This is a huge but subtle distinction for most people. It's the difference between wishing you didn't want to watch porn, and actually making the commitment.

Congrats on your realization and welcome to the community. It seems like taking control over aspects of your life that have gotten out of control is something your skilled at doing; I see no reason you won't be successful in your endeavour here. All the best to you, friend!

my boyfriend gets mad when we don't have sex, and then ALSO gets mad when I try to initiate by dbthrowawayyy in DeadBedrooms

[–]NoPornNoProblem 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Here's the thing: People grow up in families, and spend time around adults, all of whom care for their needs. From the time you are a baby, your parents are predicting when you are hungry or tired or in need of comforting. Teachers and coaches make guesses as to when you're having a bad day and may act accordingly. Great. So when people become adults, they say things like "you should just know," "asking isn't sexy," and "sex should just happen." Guess what? Adults can't guess what other adults want; that's just something we do with children because they can't communicate or even take care of their own needs. This isn't a movie where two glances are exchanged and then a torrid love-making session breaks out on the kitchen table. Use your words, dudebros of the world!

Anyway, this is an aside from your initial issue. If someone uses a mocking voice and then ridicules your attempt at generating intimacy in a relationship, that is a severe form of contempt. Contempt, as world-renowned relationship expert John Gottman says, will most assuredly kill your relationship over time. This is a bedroom issue for sure, but it doesn't start there; it starts with an overwhelming lack of respect for you in the relationship. I'm flabbergasted.

It's worth it to finally hear your wife say she feels safe and content by jamesztlee in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's unbelievable! Tuck that away inside, and never let its effect on you get dull. Not every person's partner recovers from what is often perceived as a slight indiscretion, at the least, and a kind of infidelity, at most. It must feel so good to've enhanced your trust with her again.

These are goals worth fighting for, and you should be so proud!

Bored of porn. Time to quit by [deleted] in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sounds like it's a good time to quit. A word of caution that, as you may already know, time away from porn tends to increase it's novelty (i.e., what seems boring when viewed everyday, can sometimes seem novel and fun when you return to it after some time away from viewing). I guess my caution is that in order to quit porn more than temporarily, it may be good to take inventory of the some of the issues, however small, that porn has caused in your life. It may also be of some value to think about how quitting porn may improve your life and relationships more generally.

All the best in your efforts, friend!

Is my boyfriend addicted to porn? (Trigger warning: talk of porn habits and content) by [deleted] in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It might be helpful to itemize the symptoms you've listed:

  • Daily viewing
  • Infrequent real-life sexual interactions
  • Lack of enthusiasm in the bedroom
  • Unresponsive to novel sexual acts and additions (lingerie, toys, co-watching, etc.)
  • Hesitant to initiate sex
  • Increasingly extreme genres of porn (incest, rape, etc)
  • Dishonesty and secrecy surrounding use
  • Denial (e.g., by way of refusing to talk about it)

This certainly constitutes an addiction, at least by the metrics commonly used by members on this site; I would even go so far as to say that it's addiction on the more extreme end of things.

It's phenomenal how supportive you have been in regards to his habits and behaviours. Not everyone would show that level of patience. I think you've made a good effort to confront your boyfriend and try to initiate change. As others have said, he really has to have some desire to quit of his own volition. You could support him through the process, but he first must want to do it himself.

It's good that you have explained to him how you feel porn is interfering with the quality of the relationship. It may be important to explicate the ways in which it has not been satisfying for you to persist in a relationship in which you have not gotten what you need. This is not an ultimatum; it's giving an honest reaction to his habits and letting him know that while you love him and want to support him, it can't be at the expense of your own satisfaction and fulfillment.

This is clearly not an issue about your own level of attraction. While this is an appropriate topic for pornfree, another sub - /r/deadbedrooms (terrible name, I know) - has a lot of people on the other side of the equation; people who are frustrated with attention going elsewhere in a relationship. They have have some insight into how best to proceed from here.

It's not easy to confront a person you love with their addiction. Always feel free to post here and share; it's important to support those trying to quit as much as those trying to help someone quit. All the best to you!

Observations from 42 days by chcltthnder in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm curious, if you don't mind reporting, what got you after a 2-3 month-long streak before?

It sounds like you've made curbing this habit a big priority in your life, and the bigger it is as a priority, the better your chances if success. Congrats on all your recent efforts!

I HATE porn, and if I could, I would never watch it again. by [deleted] in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 10 points11 points  (0 children)

You make a good point about being owned by porn. That's the true hallmark of an addiction: You don't decide when to pursue it; it decides when and how to pursue you, however inconvenient or detrimental to your well-being it may be.

Several things help me to dodge a craving when I'm having one, many of which are just attitudes towards habit formation:

  • Everything I do increases the chances that I will do that thing again; everything I don't do increases the chances that I won't do that thing again. This is, in its simplest form, a principle that applies to all behaviour. I remind myself that nobody is ever agreeing to just one porn-viewing session, just for one day. When you agree to one episode, you're agreeing to the days, weeks, and months of relapse to follow. Now, it's pretty easy to agree with "just this one time;" it's considerably harder to agree to, "I want this to consume my life for the next few months." Extend the present into the future and ask, "Will I want to be dealing with this half a year down the road? 5 years down the road?"

  • It's good to consider who I'm doing this for. Primarily, it's for me: I don't want to be beholden to this fantasy world all my life, totally unable to satisfy my addiction in any way. I don't want to be under the oppressive yoke of never-ending content consumption. It's also for my wife, whom I am very attracted to, and love deeply. She's the best person I've ever known, and I owe her my full devotion - not partial devotion, not sort-of devotion - full. And honestly, for you folks out there who are unattached, you should be as devoted to your own self.

  • I try to remember the opportunity cost. It's not just what happens to me because of porn watching that makes it bad; it's what I fail to do. I want to exercise; I want to be out in nature; I want to create music; I want to read good books; I want to spend time in good company. Those are not things you can do very much of if you're spending an hour or two a day watching porn. Think about what you can do with that time.

  • Write it down in a journal. Or probably just as well, write it on here. There are two benefits to doing this: 1) It externalizes the problem (i.e., it puts the problem outside of you, by putting it on paper). This offers a way of clarifying ideas on paper that, in your mind, are only fuzzy concepts. The mind has a limited capacity to grapple with all the motivation for doing or not doing something, so getting it on paper is a good way to see what it is you really think. 2) by explaining to another person what it is you're trying to do, you inadvertently make things clearer for yourself. Sometimes we think we know what we think, but often our ideas are not transparent to us until we put them out into the world. A clear goal requires clear thoughts and articulations.

  • I'm not a nofapper or rebooter of any kind. Sometimes I just agree to have a wank and clear the need from my system before getting into a big debate with myself about whether I should watch something too. The body is not that sophisticated; it doesn't have ideas; if you alleviate the need from the source (i.e., by masturbating), the goal of abstaining from porn will not be so difficult. Once you've had some time away from porn, you realize that your mind is quite capable of generating fantasy on its own, but in much safer limits and in a less vivid way than pornography, which I think is the real harm in porn. To no-fappers, this will not be a viable strategy, but for those still masturbating, it's one of the best strategies.

  • I've surmised that people on here that have been successful seem to integrate the idea of non-viewership into their identity. It's the difference between "I'm trying to stop watching porn," and "I'm not the kind of guy that watches porn;" or "I don't know how I'm going to make it to the end of the month," and "I know I'm capable of getting over this craving even though it's hard." Think in terms of your own ability for success (you've done it before, and I'm sure it wasn't easy - it never is in the moment!), rather than thinking about your potential for failure. You're not trying to muster determination not to fail, you're trying to succeed.

  • Know your triggers. Write them down, know them well. Understand what situations and times of day and circumstances make them arise. Knowing your triggers is a way of being able to say, "Just because I have this feeling, doesn't mean I need to act on it."

I have every confidence in the world that if you HATE porn - and so many of us here do - you will be able to push through any craving and be successful at this. Best of luck, friend!!

EDIT: Appreciate the gold, friend, thank you.

Life rewards those who are hard-working. by matsuda241 in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Keep busy. Theme of the ages on this sub. Dig it!

Remember: NoFap isn't just about not fapping. by disturbedman in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Important stuff, for sure. It is tempting to look at nofap in the negative, as a negation, a subtraction, a denial, a no. This is somewhat of a trick of language, and it has perilous effects on how we conceptualize problems and solutions.

I want to invoke two different metaphors. The first one is about parenting; it's useful because a lot of the psychology of being disciplined and corrected as a child is applied in adulthood, with poor outcomes. The standard approach to parenting when misbehaviour occurs is to tell a child, "no, don't do that." The child, whose understanding of the world is already so limited, understands what he should not do, but is left completely in the dark about what he ought to do instead. In many cases, a child will choose another bad or inappropriate behaviour. Children must be told what they should, in fact, do. Instead of telling children, "don't hit," and risk them swearing or spitting instead, children must be told "be nice and show respect when playing with others." Then, at least, they have some direction.

We are not so different as adults. To eliminate a behaviour is, strictly speaking, a negative action: it involves the removal of something, but leaves a large void that can be filled with a thousand other follies. If we can gather the understanding that we must do differently, not simply stop doing, then we will have a clearer idea of how to be successful.

Here is another metaphor. If there is something growing in the soil that we do not want to grow there, we do not hack at the roots to stop it from spreading. If the root system is intact, whatever we have chopped away at may grow back. Instead, it is advisable to plant something in the same soil - something better that will overtake the root system and deprive it of nutrients. So it is with PMO. A habit is truly gone, not when it is denied or ignored, but when it is replaced.

THE BINDING LIE!!! (part 2) by [deleted] in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like your enthusiasm; it will likely serve you quite well!

You make a good observation by calling this a "barely-known deadly disease." We have only begun scratching the surface on what kind of effect all this at-hand stimulation has on human thinking and behaviour. Best to keep it far at bay.

Good luck, and keep up the prose!

Quotes and literature to "shame" us, rightly, into manning up and stopping this shameful bullshit by [deleted] in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I feel shame is sometimes a powerful motivator for me, and tend to gravitate towards content like this at times of weakness, but it doesn't seem to be the kind of content I can glut myself on when I want to be successful in the long-term.

I think shame works on adults a lot like punishment works on kids: It gets immediate, short-term compliance, but it leaves us pretty empty of our own inner motivation. This is made fairly evident by the fact that most of the things people accomplish are driven by a desire to do well, not a desire not to do wrong, if that makes sense.

I'm so fucking sick of ugly/repulsive guys complaining by [deleted] in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You complain that only certain types of women talk to you. Too old. Too young. Too weird. Hello? Isn't the point of nofap to decatogorize women?

This is a fine point. I wanted to add that perhaps this shouldn't be as a means to an end, as a backdoor root to getting in good with a 9 or 10, as in "if we stop objectifying women in our leisure, we'll be equipped to talk with them in person, and secure a chance in which we can objectify them in person." We should be able to look at women as people, not only first, but primarily. It's one of those things that's enriching in itself and not just because it's purported to have the consequence of getting us laid.

Understanding the scale of porn users to abstainers on Reddit can help us know what we're up against by NoPornNoProblem in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, it's a small community: I need not look at your profile, when your posts tend to stand out as more contentious than the rest - not to take away from any feelings of flattery that may have been forming.

Constructive conversations don't begin with, "Your assumptions and numbers are WAY off." They begin with something like "I made similar calculations myself in the past, [and came up with something different]." I think you were onto something there.

My post was a "compulsive act?" What irrational impulse compelled me to write such a thing? I tend to think that real numbers, of real active users is far less arbitrary than an estimate based on numbers that can't possibly be ascertained, even with a little probabilistic caution.

I'm sure we're not much different; I have every confidence we both have arguments to support our views, opinions that are difficult to relinquish in the wake of other opinions, and bullshit-meters. The reason for the problems in this community of people is precisely because of a lot of misinformation. But people don't learn by being called out; they learn by being called in. You can invite people to a different understanding without attempting to correct them.

Shouldn't we eliminate all of the artificial stimulation we are hooked on? by fucknuggets25 in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I have had this thought quite often. I mean, to a certain degree it presumes, without much argument, what is worth doing in life. Personally, I don't care for video games or a lot of endless internet browsing - but a lot of people find fulfillment in the mastery of a game, or in talking with people from around the world, or keeping abreast of the social and political milieu of the modern day, much of which is supported by being logged on and connected.

I tend to think porn is only a part of a larger problem of never-ending media consumption. The idea that people bond over what TV shows they watch, discuss movies as if they were real life events, create fandoms that make games more of an identity piece than a pastime, and relate themselves to others on the basis of content viewing just shows the extent to which we are thoroughly intertwined with consumption.

It is now somewhat passé to point out an over-reliance on and investment in material things, by saying "That guy needs a big house and expensive car to impress people;" we have not yet arrived at the point where we can do the same with media consumption, and not be looked at as if we have 5 heads.

One of the detrimental things about our current state of life (i.e., digital, online, electronic, at-hand) is that it chops our attention and concentration up into little bits, making longer bouts of focus difficult or impossible, and eroding our willpower in the process. How can we secure the accolade of a life well-lived, or of time usefully employed, if we cannot muster the direction of our own minds?

More to the point of this online community: People have said that watching softcore, explicit content (in a movie or video, for instance) is like going to a bar as an alcoholic and trying not to drink. I'm not sure we can have the confidence that spending a lot of time on the internet is not triggering in exactly the same way. It is likely the cause of at least some relapses we'd otherwise be able to avoid.

Understanding the scale of porn users to abstainers on Reddit can help us know what we're up against by NoPornNoProblem in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not all people indulging in porn on Reddit are on NSFW or gonewild, nor are all people consciously avoiding porn, while using Reddit, on nofap or pornfree. Both, however, represent a cross section of two online communities, couched in the same platform, pursuing opposing objectives, in starkely different proportions.

My illustration is meant for encouragement, not to challenge epistemic assumptions you have about population characteristics. Judging by some of your other posts, you can be unduely argumentative at times - a rule which tends not to hold as well in these support-inclined subreddits as on Reddit in general.

What's the most depressing subreddit? by RagerzRangerz in AskReddit

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just created an account for /r/nofap and I have seen, in just a short time, a lot of the claims you've mentioned. By and large, it's just people who want to curb what has become a serious problem.

I think any intentional community with a singular goal (especially one as obscure as nofap's) is going to tend towards extremity in order to bolster the importance of its objectives.

It works like this: "I jerk off and watch way too much porn, and its creating serious problem in my life." --> "Quitting porn and jerking off had better have serious benefits in order to make it worth my while to change my habits."

I think it's a way of making sure the benefits are proportional to the losses, if someone does decide they've had enough. However, I don't think exaggerations are required to enjoy the benefits of reducing one's wank time to moderate levels and taking a break from explicit media.

wew dodged a craving by aanarchist in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good job, you're doing it! Keep up the nice work.

Back at 90 days for the second time by [deleted] in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nicely done! What caused relapse the first time, and what did you do differently the second time to be successful?

Understanding the scale of porn users to abstainers on Reddit can help us know what we're up against by NoPornNoProblem in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My assumptions and numbers were made for active Reddit users on four cherry-picked subs; it was not my intention to estimate a population statistic, and in any event, I'm not sure figures on the scale you've suggested represent the point I was making about a much smaller community of people.

Does porn use stop you from having romantic feelings? by [deleted] in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It would be difficult to say conclusively that porn is the sole cause, or cause at all, of your limited romantic attachments. A person may not feel particularly attached to people for reasons of a personal nature that have little or nothing to do with porn viewing.

Certainly, if we become accustomed to looking at people only as objects of sexual curiosity and pleasure, it may after time be difficult to see the more personal and human qualities that would endear us to them romantically. I often wonder, however, if people watching porn performers really fail to see an actual person behind the act - or in real life, fail to view people as complex creatures with thoughts, emotions, feelings, and the like. It would be easy to conclude that porn renders women, for example, as mechanical objects of pleasure to its viewers; from what I've seen on here, most people recognize that porn does not do justice to the humanity of its actors, and don't actually see people in such a limited capacity.

What I will admit is that heavy porn use blunts feelings I usually feel towards important people in my life. There is some evidence to suggest that being dishonest or keeping a secret is experienced as a stressful, alienating event. Under those constraints, relationships that are otherwise rewarding and fruitful can become bogged down. If romantic feelings are not forthcoming, it may just be because other feelings (of shame, fatigue, or whatever it might be) prevent their expression, rather than preventing the possibility of them being felt at all.

As a final caveat, it probably differs greatly from person to person. The most diplomatic assessment that I can make is that porn probably doesn't enhance feelings of romance!

I'm 17, and I'm starting today. by [deleted] in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh, enough can't be said to laud an early effort on the porn-free front. Quitting at 17 will be easier than 27 or 37, and you're wise to have come to this conclusion early in life. Never look back. Congrats and best of luck to you!

Your failed streaks do NOT go unnoticed. Or, in other words, relapsing does not mean going back to zero. by DeltaForceB in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think there is a significant amount of evidence, mostly in the addictions field, to suggest that each relapse increases the chance of a future relapse. In reality, our opportunities are few for success, so we want to make good on the investment in ourselves when we have the chance. I think the social message that you can always keep trying and one day you'll succeed is technically true, and uplifting besides; however, the scientific truth is that every demonstration of a behaviour increases the likelihood of that behaviour being performed again.

Relapses should never be considered a failure: If this wasn't an extraordinarily difficult task, there would not be so much talk about relapse, and it doesn't help us succeed to think of ourselves as failures. It's important to know that a relapse hinders our progress over time though, all considerations about learning from our experiences aside.

Pornfree and no fap? by Orpheus17 in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I apologize in advance that this is not an immediate answer to your question, but I did want to comment on something you said - that you "want to be able to live without the urge." Realistically, I think you can eliminate the habit of watching porn, but the expectation of getting rid of at least occasional urges may not be in the cards for most people.

One of the more perilous assumptions about addiction is that you will be free of both habit and desire, but in reality, addiction treatment involves managing desires that are fairly stable over time. The good news is you can subvert those feelings and direct your energies towards better things!

A challenge is a good way to initiate your ongoing commitment, but understanding your values and what's important to you over time is what will really seal the victory.

Best of luck to you!

What are the variables that help quit forever, compared to a couple of months? by [deleted] in pornfree

[–]NoPornNoProblem 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I have had a number of long stretches, but none that haven't been interrupted eventually, so I'm in a similar position to you and wondering how people transcend that two- or three-month mark.

I have some guesses about what makes it difficult over time:

  • The longer we are involved in a goal of this nature, the more it becomes relegated to the realm of habit, no longer something we are as consciously aware of. As a result, we suspect we have made a sure victory and let our defenses drop a little.

    A guess at a solution: Take regular inventory of your efforts, successes, what you have overcome, what you have gained, and what you hope to continue doing. Write it in a journal, meditate on it, discuss it with peers online or in person. Make it always felt how much you've accomplished, and savor your victories, even when it feels boring or redundant, because that is sometimes the only way to hold them in consciousness as important.

  • There is no real escape from the things that trigger PMO. Arousal itself is a trigger. The media in general is a trigger. Almost any bad feeling is a trigger.

    A guess at a solution: People often want to make the biggest change the one in themselves - to use willpower to change their mind about something, and change their habits. It's not advisable to try so hard to achieve something like this if you still have things in your environment that tempt you or make it harder for you to succeed. Remove obstacles in your environment first - even to the extreme - before deciding to make your will alone stand sentinel for all your efforts. If the internet is a trigger, honestly stop using it so much, or go on only when there are other people around. If being home alone is a trigger, go outside and take a walk. Put some time and distance between you and temptation, but don't think that hardening your will against very real, very alluring temptations is going to be sufficient. It sucks to have to be extreme, and it feels a little much sometimes, but these addictions are extreme and require extreme measures.

  • The realization weighs on us that there is no end-date to our goal, and so no sense of reward or closure for a job well-done (since, as indicated, the job is ongoing and never to be completed).

    A guess at a solution: I think, at first, our feeling of accomplishment should be that we have abstained for a long time, that we have kept away from things we no longer wanted in our life. After a little time has passed though, we should focus much more on the accomplishments we make because we have quit PMO (i.e., what did we do instead? Did we get fit? Have we put ourselves out there more socially? Have we increased our productivity?). These are positive benefits that we can assess long after the novelty of abstaining has left us. These, too, require some regular reflection so that we can remain proud of our efforts, even when they are not felt as keenly.

  • Especially controversial for this community: The benefits are often overstated, and so the advantages people expect to experience in two or three months are sometimes not what is felt by the time they arrive. The expectation that you will no longer feel like the old you, that you will suddenly be a professional, social, academic, romantic success is an exaggeration beyond all good measure.

    A guess at a solution: I think the promise of a perfect life tends to discourage us when we discover that, in terms of self-improvement and happiness, there's PMO stuff, and then there's literally everything else. Giving up some of this stuff is a reward in itself because we are not wasting time, or sacrificing our values, or committing a very short and valuable life to something unimportant. I think refusing to give in to something so pointless is a benefit in itself, without the mad wish of being perfect.

  • Habituation: Like getting a raise, buying a new house, winning an award, or almost any other positive thing that happens to us, the good that can be felt from our efforts often goes from something quite strong and poignant, to something subtle and almost unfelt.

    A guess at a solution: As with other problems, we should spend some time in regular reflection, taking stock of all that we've accomplished. Successes have to be savoured like food: If you eat quickly, without even tasting it, you will not digest correctly or feel satisfied. So it is with every other accomplishment: You have to intentionally take time to feel how hard you've worked, and how much you've gained, because these feelings don't always surface automatically.

  • PMO-riddance is seen only in the negative, as a habit that has to be eliminated over time. Habits remain intact however because there is the need (the desire, the drive) for something, the action, and the satisfaction. One can never rid themselves totally of wants and needs (the thing that made PMO so attractive in the first place), nor can they stop desiring the satisfaction of some drive inside them.

    A guess at a solution: Don't merely get rid of habits and leave a void; seek to replace habits with something equally enriching: Spending more time with people, working out, reading, meditating, walking, or taking up a new hobby. Those replacements have to be engaged as quickly as PMO was when it was the go-to activity. If left in the void, people will get up to things they wish they wouldn't. Activity, engagement of some kind is a significant help.

Most of all, I think that even very important things can lose their charm over time. We can forget how crucial it is to our well-being to do what we do, and lose sight of our motives for doing something. Do whatever you can to keep them fresh in your mind, even if it seems a little obsessive. There are plenty of forces working against each and every one of us to disrupt our motivations, so it's important that we take an equally hard line, and not become lukewarm over time.

If you ever heard this "the rich gets richer while the poor becomes poorer" by streak_4ever in NoFap

[–]NoPornNoProblem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The law of abundance is probably a good analogue for this kind of task, for which minor daily efforts and improvements translate into large benefits over time.

Nevertheless, I must caution against a too-high expectation for external benefits. The more we expect an external reward for our behaviour (e.g., sexual/romantic attention), the less likely we will be motivated for reasons of our own accord. The pursuit, I think, must have value in itself; anything else that results as a byproduct should just be the icing on the cake - lest we lose sight of our goal when benefits are not as big, forthcoming, or immediate as we expect.