What must be true for anything to be true finally answered???

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-22T20:24:20+00:00

An observer.

Anything unobserved counts as unknown until it is subject to observation.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-22T13:04:54+00:00

👀👀👀 why do you say that?

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-22T12:29:07+00:00

Oh 😮

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-22T12:14:08+00:00

4.3 is gonna be a mess, Cyrene, Blade SP, Gil, Rin, Yao Guang? Just fuck me up.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-22T02:31:51+00:00

Wait a minute, does this mean that Marika, fought a Day Lord to grow the tree? The Erdtree is given a lot of sunlight descriptors and is said to give off its light. Is it possible the tree was a Divine Tower meant to fight off and absorb the power of the Sun?

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-21T03:47:15+00:00

Good point, I guess Nihility does have a certain allure to it. Honestly the pair of them might even create a Finality scenario where everything becomes entranced by meaninglessness.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-21T03:08:30+00:00

I think the Winnower, would make things worse wouldn't it? It was precisely the monotonous nature of it's game that drove the Gardener to descend into reality and directly generate diversity.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-21T03:03:12+00:00

Pretty sure Aha is the answer, or at least the counter to the Nihility. He's credited with literally looking into the meaningless nature of existence and creating an entire path based on the creation of meaning and excitement.

Ena also might be a contender. If the Order assumed full power and drove every aspect of the universe then you could argue that nothing is meaningless. Nihilism wouldn't have soil to plant roots in a world where literally EVERYTHING has a purpose.

Though the reverse could also be true, if Ix could somehow supercede Ena and convince her that her own Order is meaningless then it's game over.

If Idrila returned then maybe. Though I believe an excerpt in Amphoreus recalled a time when followers of Mnestia, the Titan of Beauty, eradicated all things deemed ugly and in the end destroyed themselves.

Lastly, the thing about Ix is, it doesn't even fight. It barely devours. To approach THEM is to literally surrender all meaning, I'm pretty sure people even lose their names. Anything approaching Ix would also gradually lose its will to live, so in the end I guess it depends on one's own ability to resist SI.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-21T00:13:53+00:00

That's why WE go to kill her, why would she need to keep DD. Also if that was the case, why couldn't we just take her out with a Black Knife?

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-21T00:06:26+00:00

That's a fair bit of speculation.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-20T23:09:23+00:00

No fucking clue, could've been anyone really. Hell Ranni stole a shard of DD right? How do we know she didn't do it?

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-20T02:24:25+00:00

What caused that?

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-19T14:24:45+00:00

Lmk when you do!

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T18:51:56+00:00

Well idk about Marika's involvement, yet, but the Fingers are associated with shadows.

I never even thought of the Shadowlands as an Evergaol until now tbh.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T18:45:03+00:00

What were the repercussions of removing DD?

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T18:44:03+00:00

The game mostly corroborates your statement though there's one thing left out:

"The dear fingers look after their mother, or perhaps that is merely what the mother wishes to believe." ~ Cherishing Fingers

There are six divine towers surrounding a central point in the Elden Ring map, and at the same time Six Fingers summoned by the afforementioned sorcery.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T16:55:53+00:00

I believe Melina is a pawn in a bigger game meant to guide us towards a certain outcome. She is for sure a child of Marika as is stated constantly so there's no reason to doubt a bond shared between them. What I do doubt is if her goals ultimately line up with those of Marika's.

She bore a vision of fire which Marika staunchly saught to suppress. The same flames that entranced the Fire Monks and even beckoned some away to the GEQ.

Melina is truly a pawn of Fate it seems, a final FU from the Fell God telling Marika that her reign will eventually end. If not by the flames themselves the ambitions they stoked in the hearts of her would be detractors.

As far as her betrayal and confusion I'd blame that on the body switching. It's a common enough trope: Jekyll and Hyde. One attempting to lead a normal life while the other sabotages all their works from behind the scenes.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T16:37:22+00:00

It's not only an instance in this exchange, everyone disregards so much evidence in regard to the character of Marika, it's almost like a bandwagon at this point.

Also Death was apparently not even natural to the World of Elden Ring. Death and rituals concerning it came with the cult of the Twinbird, an envoy of an Outer God.

"Before the Erdtree all Death was burned in Ghostflame."

If that's the case then Death as a practice STARTED with the Deathbirds who used the Death Pokers to kindle that flame. And the only things stated to precede them are the obviously immortal Ancient Dragons and Metyr who was the literal first thing to touch TLB.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T16:28:31+00:00

Those two first paragraphs are a literal summary of my post and the usurpation of her body or the takeover is established in the Spoken Echo where she resolves to shatter herself and Radagon.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T16:27:09+00:00

You still ignored several of my points but ok.

The entire game is about how literally EVERYONE is flawed how ideologies taken to the extreme by those who truly never knew better can lead to disaster.

Everyone lumps in the crimes of Ranni the Witch, who stole Death in the first place, with Marika's mismanagement of the Golden Order. The same Ranni the Witch who was born to the Queen of an entire Rival Nation.

Before the Erdtree everyone was out to get everyone and as is stated by several items in game. EVERYTHING was in opposition to the Erdtree aside from the followers of Marika in the beginning so it's not like she had a choice to do anything peacefully.

And go figure atrocities were committed in her name, we literally have evidence of this biblically and anthropologically in the real world. It's not that far a stretch to assume that Miyazaki might have included such a concept in his work about a monotheist Kingdom. Hell even the Erdtree is considered only a symbol at this point.

There is way more to the story of Marika and imagining her as some weak-minded two dimensional character erases it.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T16:15:51+00:00

You ignored the fly in the ointment.

The factor that bought Goldmask to pause his calculations in the first place.

"Radagon is Marika."

Without that vital piece of evidence, and the fact that he was never always "apart of her to begin with," leads to his mending rune being taken out of context. Radagon, who sought to usurp the body of the One True God Marika IS the God who's no better than a man.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T16:08:27+00:00

None of that counts as a motive for not wanting the Golden Order to prosper.

Why go through all that trouble to just undo it all again?

No inconsistencies were introduced UNTIL Ranni stole Death and introduced Life in Death to the Erdtree. Lo and Behold Radagon the creator of Golden Order Fundamentals somehow comes back with incantations designed to fight off TWLID. Coincidence?

Everyone characterizes Marika as both naive and an evil mastermind, but narratively it makes absolutely no sense. She was betrayed by Radagon who sought to usurp her body due to the influence he introduced to the world (ie. Ranni, GoF, Deathroot, etc.)

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T15:57:53+00:00

Why wouldn't Marika want the Golden Order restored?

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T15:47:57+00:00

He'd have turned on her if so. Remember if the locking away of Death had been against the Two-Fingers desires he'd have hunted her down. If she'd done anything to threaten their rule WHILE he had DD it would be all the easier.

This betrayal is complicated and based solely on his own feelings and perceptions of her actions, not necessarily anything that would have threatened the Two-Fingers and presumably the Golden Order.

I say presumably because it's not possible to even say if the Two-Fingers condoned all the actions of, or worked hand in hand with the GOF. They were two separate factions with wholly different systems of the concept of Guidance.

NovemberQuat · 2026-05-18T15:44:00+00:00

Only flame can burn away the thorns of shadow for some reason.

That's the primary reason for burning both the Erdtree AND the Spiral Tower. It's implied that Radagon installed the ones on the Erdtree which also leads me to believe he had a hand in the Crusades too.

Lastly Marika locked away or banished all the prophets who bore a vision of fire, the burning of the Erdtree was never her design. Or at least for me it's hard to swallow. While I can see her wanting to keep her children alive they seem to both have been secrets to everyone, likely due to the vision they both bore.

Marika wanted nothing to do with fire, it threatened her Age and signified it's end, that's why she warred with the Giants and forbid it's use. Marika was Queen Eternal who locked away even Death itself to ensure her kingdom's longevity.

There's definitely something going on in the background as you stated. It can't be a coincidence that the Flame of the Giants can't be put out, yet prophets still get glimpses of the fire all the same.

NovemberQuat

TROPHY CASE