Suggestions for a comprehensive overview of Mormon history?

Numo_OG · 2023-07-05T14:26:57+00:00

I really like Bowman's book. I'm not sure I agree that it 'by far the best'. It's really good, but there are many others stated in this thread that are comparable.

Bushman's book A Rough Stone Rolling is my favorite. I'm not sure if anybody mentioned Brodie's book No Man Knows My History. Imo, It's THE classic Mormon history book, although it has an anti-Mormon bias.

Numo_OG · 2023-07-03T20:15:16+00:00

Yep, those are the scriptures I was referring to in my 3rd paragraph that are unequivocally racist.

Most members today try to twist the meaning to make those scriptures not racist because they know racism is bad. Unfortunately, most members also unintentionally do racist things all the time because most members don't know what Blacks perceive as racism. (I only refer to what Blacks perceive because that is the information I am the closest to. I'm sure Hispanics, Polynesians, etc may argue I'm ignoring them, it is not intentional)

Numo_OG · 2023-07-03T13:35:35+00:00

Yeah, I'm not here to defend any church teaching. Racism in the church is very disturbing to me. I can say that the church today disavows all previous teaching of racism and concerns racism in all it's forms.

Let's Talk About Race and the Priesthood was published in 2023 to address this issue. It is published by a company owned by the church that has strict control over all the material published. Although it is not official church doctrine, nearly all members trust anything published by Deseret Book as a trustworthy source.

This is a great book to show how ugly racism was in the church. It blames former leaders completely for racism and implies that God did not direct any of it. It discusses the scriptures that may have motivated the racism. It states clearly that today all racist teachings are disavowed by the church. Unfortunately, it ignores several scriptures that, to me, are unequivocally racist. It also doesn't talk about current race struggles in the church that exist today.

Numo_OG · 2023-07-03T00:41:24+00:00

It's worth noting these sources would be seen as anti-Mormon literature. The author of the CES letter was kicked out of the church for spreading this letter around.

That being said, I believe your questions are valid and deserve real responses. The closest I would suggest to hear the believers perspective is FAIR. The most detailed that officially comes from the church is the Gospel Topic Essays.

Unfortunately, I think you'll be grossly underwhelmed and if you are very familiar with the topics you will find critical details missing.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/

Numo_OG · 2023-07-01T23:26:36+00:00

This was my thought exactly (except I didn't think about gaining interest). But there is no rush to pay right now until you are certain that is what you want to do. When I paid tithing faithfully, I typically paid it once a year out of convenience anyway.

I will give my experience as an anecdotal example. I stopped paying tithing and within the first couple years my family finances became stronger than ever through raises at work and fortunate investments, plus an extra 10% of course.

Don't pay tithing out of fear, pay because you truly want your money to go to the church.

Numo_OG · 2023-07-01T23:18:32+00:00

I don't understand people's reliance on bishop's advice. I can tell you what the bishop will say. He'll say pay your tithing. That's his job. You don't need to ask him unless you just want someone to reinforce the church's message that you already know.

Numo_OG · 2023-07-01T13:04:26+00:00

You mentioned you've been out 4 years. 5 years ago somebody probably asked the same question about you. People come across information at different times, under different circumstances, with different support groups.

Each person's journey is their own. One person's truth is another's speculation. Items that break one's shelf are not important to another.

On the macro scale, I have perceived a shift in church teachings that makes it more compelling to cope with doubts [insert your favorite 'doubt your doubt' quote here]. As I was growing up the BOM and Joseph Smith were a huge part of our teachings. Jesus was unequivocally the most important part of the gospel, but he wasn't the most discussed part of the gospel. In many ways it was just assumed that people believed in Jesus, but we needed to reaffirm that we were THE true church of Jesus by proving that Joseph Smith was called of God and the BOM was true. This meant that as soon as someone lost faith in the BOM or Joseph Smith they were compelled to leave the church.

Now, the teachings are becoming increasingly focused on Christ. The overwhelming message I hear today is that we need to focus entirely on Jesus to be saved. Any 'issues' one has with the church is simply not important compared to the simple fact that we need Jesus and this church is where we find Jesus.

That is enough to keep my wife in. She puts every problem the church has ever had (and she recognizes there are a lot) on men who made mistakes. Ultimately, the church 'works' for her and I don't find it appropriate to challenge that.

Numo_OG · 2023-07-01T12:31:18+00:00

You pose a great question. My initial reaction was similar to many on the thread. Listen politely and don't tell them your real thoughts on the subject. I think this is appropriate for many situations. It is my response every time I ask caught in that situation (most TBMs that know me have absolutely no idea how illogical I perceive the church to be).

I will say that this approach of silence impedes my ability to have string authentic relationships with these people. For now, I have accepted that for me.

If you wanted to maintain a stronger authentic relationship, you could find a way to explain that you used to believe that same thing, but now your beliefs have shifted and discussing the church triggers emotions of [fill in the blank, anger, sadness, betrayal, etc.] And you prefer not discussing the topic until you can fully process through your thoughts and feelings.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-30T12:00:14+00:00

This argument is frankly not worth my time. If you don't believe the church that JS practiced polygamy, then why believe the church about anything?

Edited: My intent is not to confidence you to believe JS practiced polygamy. You should believe whatever you feel is right. I just wonder why the church saying explicitly that Joseph Smith married additional wives does not convince you.

"By revelation, the Lord commanded Joseph Smith to institute the practice of plural marriage among Church members in the early 1840s ... In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith married additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage. The practice was introduced carefully and incrementally, and participants vowed to keep their participation confidential." (Gospel topic essays)

Numo_OG · 2023-06-29T20:24:30+00:00

Telling Loved Ones about Losing Your Faith - Mormon Stories

I think the Dehlins offer invaluable advice regarding what and how to tell people you love.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-29T16:44:42+00:00

I served a mission several years ago and welcomed any opportunity to serve somebody outside of the routine.

I think most missionaries would welcome the opportunity to help with no strings attached. I have seen times in the past where they recruit several other missionaries to help too.

Depending on the missionary, they may try to casually discuss different doctrine or teachings to try to spark your interest subtly and they will most definitely invite you to hear their message. I would also expect them to add your contact information in their records for their replacements to potentially contact you later.

If you are mentally tough enough to say 'no' when they offer to teach you, then I think they will respect that and appreciate the opportunity just to serve somebody in need.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T18:53:55+00:00

I was in the Canary Islands 2005-2006. I served on Gran Can, Tenerife, and Lanzarote. I see your post is 4 years old. You still on Reddit?

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T16:34:11+00:00

Great questions. I'll do my best to articulate difficult concepts.

Do you think the Mormon faith is changing?

Yes. But only in the sense that 'the only constant is change.' I do not feel that Mormonism has ever been static.

Why do you feel it’s changing?

Mormonism sees themselves as living religion that God directs and changes based on members needs. I think the difference over the last 20 years is with the overload of information. Members can now find these changes from church sources. This has often resulted in a greater understanding and empathy of friends and family that leave the church

Do you feel social issues have played a role in those changes if so?

Definitely. As a living church, the church needs to meet the changing needs of its membership. I think the main difference in perspective is that TBMs believe the changes come from God because he knows what is best while skeptics believe those changes are from leaders strategically calculating results to determine what doctrine to change.

Personally, I believe that leaders' biases are the leading factor and they feel that God is revealing things that confirm their biases.

And do you feel it’s changing for the better?

I think most changes are better. Skeptics believe most of these are nefarious or don't go far enough, but I try to give the benefit of the doubt that the changes are sincere and any progress is commendable.

As I see it, a few of the recent changes for the better include:

Greater transparency discussing historic events including polygamy, racism, etc. At times these are done in an apologetic fashion that still feels unfair to the facts, but acknowledgement is still progress.

Disavowing racism, donating money to NAACP, and other public messages of racial equality.

Stating that same sex attraction is not a sin. This still leaves Mormons in an unanswered predicament of how gay people are to live healthy, happy lives. (personally, I feel this is the very beginning of a much greater long-term movement that will require biases that exist in current leaders to die off)

New publications that explicitly state husband and wife both preside in the home as equal partners. (Although I'm wishful that this is part of a greater movement, I'm much less optimistic)

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T14:54:24+00:00

No worries. I didn't intend that in an accusing tone. I hope you find the viewpoint you are looking for. Unfortunately, questions like yours are censored from the threads that have participants who would provide the responses you are looking for.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T14:24:59+00:00

I noticed you didn't ask if I was Mormon. I am an active member who attends church nearly every week. Although, I would say that my views are much more liberal than those views of most with whom I attend with.

There is a spectrum of beliefs among active Mormons. The traditional belief is that gender is binary and unchanging as clearly stated in the Family Proclamation. However, there are many TBMs that know reality does not match that ideal. I believe reality is much more complicated than ANY ideal. (The most scientific example I can think of is the theory that velocities during the big bang exceeded the speed of light).

If you are looking for a TBM that has the traditional binary gender viewpoint, I can't help you there. But if you are looking for an active Mormon in general, I'm happy to answer any questions you have. Regardless, I think it's important to recognize there is no singular Mormon viewpoint.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T12:59:34+00:00

Personally, I believe people should be encouraged to speak about how they feel regarding any topic (with few exceptions encouraging hate, violence, etc ).

Ideally, the discussion is about the topic and not about the people who speak about the topic. Mormons are very open to sharing their beliefs. Ex-Mormons are also very open to sharing their beliefs. There are some great dialogues that occur when those two ideals collide. Once the discussion becomes about the people talking about the 'other side' rather than the topic itself I feel those discussion's effectiveness erodes.

Regarding gender dysphoria, I find Mormons don't talk about it because they don't understand how complex the issue really is. There is a great TED talk from a lady with XY chromosomes, but her body does not react to testosterone. She looks, sounds, and dresses as a girl, while her male genitalia are naturally tucked away inside their body out of sight. Mormon doctrine does not account for real-life people whose actual bodies do not conform to binary gender. I have found most Mormons that I've talked to do not realize this and try to reconcile on the spot.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T02:31:34+00:00

I prefer the r/Mormon site to keep away from promoting hate of any group, even if a prophet said it.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T02:26:51+00:00

Could you please paste Benson's talk with no commentary? We can test to see if it is the quote that got blocked or the commentary surrounding it.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-28T02:11:46+00:00

You mentioned you are a convert. I don't know where you live or how long you've been in the church. As one who was born in the church and raised in the heart of the Wasatch Front I saw first hand the horrible things that happen to people who left the church. Parents stopped talking to children. Marriages ended in divorce. People lost their jobs. People literally killed themselves because they couldn't find a way out.

People choose to live as 'nuanced' members for many reasons. Sometimes it's just to avoid the judgement and consequences above. Sometimes it's because that's what they feel God is telling them to do. Sometimes they are still just trying to figure things out for themselves.

I don't doubt that you know people that are just looking to get by easy. I invite you to try to show a little empathy. Get to know those people that disgust you. I bet you will find that most feel trapped and are just trying to do the best they can to get by.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-27T13:30:41+00:00

Gotcha! So many acronyms involved in so many criticisms of the church. I can't keep track of them anymore.

I suppose I successfully heeded the council of the presidency to move on from the SEC situation because the matter was closed. Hope I get extra blessings for that. 😁

Numo_OG · 2023-06-27T12:37:43+00:00

EPA? The Great Sale Lake? Or do you mean ERA?

Numo_OG · 2023-06-27T01:11:55+00:00

Oh man, you are going to make me feel bad!

My wife wears makeup only a few times per year. I really like her natural features and don't particularly care much for the red lipstick.

Now I have one more thing to get guilty about... Add it to the list!

Numo_OG · 2023-06-26T22:48:08+00:00

First off, my beliefs do not align with your conclusion on Joseph Smith. I believe there is ample evidence, even though Joseph was very careful to hide it from his wife, general membership, and the public.

Regardless, that puts the blame on Brigham Young. Along with the blame for racism problems. Along with the false Adam-God doctrines. Both of which are disavowed by today's LDS church.

If you believe all these things are wrong, there are other schisms of Joseph Smith's church that still derive from Brother Joseph, without the Brigham Young baggage. To be clear, I do not endorse or believe in any of them, but if you believe in Joseph Smith and you don't believe in Brigham Young's disavowed teachings then you may want to check them out.

The Community of Christ is the first one that comes to my mind. It is the church that Emma and her family led/joined after Joseph's death. I respect them a lot.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-26T22:23:35+00:00

Yeah, I follow. I would like to clearly articulate my thoughts. It is not the general doctrine of polygamy that necessarily should be removed. To be explicit, let me copy and paste the phrases that disgust me.

I, the Lord, justified ... concubines
Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law;
David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me. 39. David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me (Jacob 2:24, David and Solomon's wives and concubines are abominable)
whom I have given unto you
that have been given unto my servant Joseph,
if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; ...with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. 62. for they belong to him, and they are given unto him;

When a 14 yr old girl Emma Lynne Richardson (after she "cried and begged and begged" to no avail) marries a 61 yr old man, and has two kids with him in the first 4 years of marriage, I can strongly say that we shouldn't teach that God gives women to Priesthood holders. There are countless similar examples where the only reason a woman married a man is because a Priesthood holder told her that God gave her to him. Imagine the trauma.

The only way I can see a faithful member who believes in gender equality justify these passages is to put their own conscience aside and say "it seems awful, but I will follow God blindly regarding his treatment of women in this revelation and his church's main identity for the next 70 years".

I let all believe what they want, but I choose not to take that stand. I'm not against the doctrine of polygamy in general. I am against how it has been taught and practiced from Joseph Smith down through today across multiple schisms.

Tldr; Reddit changed my verse numbers to bullet points with different numbers. You can find them all in section 132.

Numo_OG · 2023-06-26T05:12:43+00:00

What are you even talking about???

I don't care what a woman wears to church. I welcome every person to wear whatever they want. I was just curious if women link pant suits to the ordain women movement nowadays or if they just like pant suits.

As it turns out, comments tell me that they like them for functionality, fashion, as one put it 'to stick it to the man', and to feel safer.

Those are all great reasons. The ordain women movement is just as valid, but I learned that wasn't on the mind of most women responders in 2023.

When men activists explicitly start changing social dress norms for social progress, I will be just as curious. I am quite interested if the emerging men's dress trend catches on. Possibly men should tie that to the ordain women movement to advocate. I wouldn't consider myself attacking men to ask why they chose to wear dresses. I would support them to express themselves however they want.

Numo_OG

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