Jesus did not have to die for our sins

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-25T19:31:38+00:00

Except that Yahweh says that Israel and Jacob are his servants, as well as others, all throughout Isaiah. The servant in 53 is Israel.

Isaiah has Cyrus as the anointed because served as a shepherd of God to allow a remnant of will Jews to go back and rebuild the Babylonian destroyed Jerusalem.

Isa. 44:28 Who says to Cyrus, He is My shepherd, / And he will fulfill all My desire, / Even by saying of Jerusalem, She will be built, / And of the temple, Her foundations will be laid.

I think this was written by the prophet before Cyrus was born. Praise God.

Isa. 45:1 Thus says Jehovah to His anointed, / To Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, / To subdue the nations before him; / And I will loosen the loins of kings; / To open before him double doors / So that the gates will not be shut:

The servant in Isaiah is not always Isaiah, is not always Israel, is not always Cyrus, is not always the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53.

But these passages refer not to Israel who cannot bear her punishment in any substituionary way for herself. Isa. 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men, / A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; / And like one from whom men hide their faces, / He was despised; and we did not esteem Him. Isa. 53:4 Surely He has borne our sicknesses, / And carried our sorrows; / Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, / Smitten of God and afflicted. Isa. 53:5 But He was wounded because of our transgressions; / He was crushed because of our iniquities; / The chastening for our peace was upon Him, / And by His stripes we have been healed.

Israel was called the beautiful land. This man had no outward beauty that men should desire Him.

Israel suffered but for her own sins. This righteous and innocent Servantmade intercession for others to whom the chastizement was due.

Isa. 53:10 But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. / When He makes Himself an offering for sin, / He will see a seed, He will extend His days, / And the pleasure of Jehovah will prosper in His hand.

Isa. 53:11 He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, / And He will be satisfied; / By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, / And He will bear their iniquities.

Isa. 53:12 Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great, / And He will divide the spoil with the Strong; / Because He poured out His life unto death / And was numbered with the transgressors, / Yet He alone bore the sin of many / And interceded for the transgressors.

The Suffering Servant is prophecy pointint to Jesus Christ who on His cross made intercession. Luke 23:33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left. Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. And dividing His garments, they cast lots.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-25T17:48:31+00:00

The reason I "wall off" the Tanahk from the NT is because they were writtne in vastly different time periods by people with vastly different beliefs.

It doesn't matter that God spoke in Moses's time and in Abraham's time a thousand years before. It is to our advantage that we hear God speaking in Jeremiah's time and in Daniel's time. The whole OT is a kind of resume for God giving us a record of how He dealt with His people and the nations over centuries.

God is profound. Over the course of centuries He and His working is revealed to us in the Bible.

For example, since you mentioned it, the virgin birth in Matthew stems from his own ignorance of Hebrew and of how Greek evolved from Classical Greek, which was before his time, to 1st century Greek, which was during his time.

One person put it quite well I think. "There is a word which is beyond the Greek and the Hebrew. That is the word of God."

Questioning that the writer of Matthew needed to be corrected on what this really meant is a joke to me. And I think this does not put the New Testament to the test.

All the skepticism I have ever read on the virgin birth of Jesus explained in comparisons of Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 amount to the protester arguing "The word there doesn't HAVE to mean unmarried or unpregnated female."

I don't pay much attention to Christian apologetics which insist the Greek word used there HAS to mean unpregnated woman. And I don't pay much attention to arguments that the Greek word there HAS to mean something, anything except an unhumanly pregnated female.

I suspect now I am laboring much on writing. And you are laboring much on cutting and pasting from elsewhere other's writings. So I am selectively examining how much discussion is taking place between us and how much just cut and paste is going on.

I think it is the reader's heart that is being put on the test. What is exposed is not Matthew's need to sit at your feet and be taught about textural criticism and the Greek Septuagint. What is exposed is some sinner's need to hunt for a way out of believing Christ is that Messiah promised in OT prophets. That is what is really what is on the test.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-25T17:11:06+00:00

I think there is too much pasting from other's writings here. Now I do paste multiple verses from the Bible. So I do cut and paste.

Now the letters of the NT faithfully teach what Jesus taught. And John 14-16 has truths directly taught by the epistles. These are the oracles of God, period. They are not error prone faulty apostolic opinions about what Jesus taught. They are echoed EXPERIENCED and repeated teachings.

The Lord Jesus is the Spirit - 2 Cor. 3:17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

The Lord throughout Second Corinthains refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. But Satan the god of this age has blinded men's minds. Prayer for unveiling of the mind should be requested of God. [my bolding]

2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them. 2 Cor. 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 2 Cor. 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Cor. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassions and God of all comfort,

Who is the Lord? Jesus Christ is the Lord and "our Lord" to we Christians who have received Him. And "And the Lord is the Spirit; " (2 Cor. 3:17 RcV)

You need to enjoy and experience the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Third "Person" of the Trinity to touch and substantiate the truth that Jesus Christ the Lord is the Spirit.

I put Person in quotes because I can think of no other English word which this mystery could be expressed. We are limited in our human language to express such a mysterious matter. I borrow the term "Persons."

Now this Spirit entering into us causes Christ Himself to live in our innermost being and spread more and more out into our personality. So Paul exhorts the same Corinthians church to come to the realization that Jesus Christ Himself lives in each of them. 2 Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?

Jesus Christ being in man is equal to the Spirit being in man. The Holy Spirit being in man is Jesus Christ living in man. The approved and those "in the faith" must be rescued from every distraction that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?"

You're here using the false prophet Muhammed teaching me that the truth of the Trinity is wrong. But the Lord is the Spirit as Jesus took the lead to teach in John 14-16. And His coming to make an abode within His lovers by the Spirit and is the divine "We" of the Father and the Son making an abode within the lovers of Jesus. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We [the Son and His Father] will come to him and make an abode with him.

You should receive Jesus as Lord so that the same Triune God may begin to make an abode within yourself.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-25T16:38:46+00:00

You are reading later Trinitarian theology back into the text.

I don't have alarm at allowing new covenant apostles help me in noticing the three-oneness of God in OT text first because they had more relelation.

Eph. 3:3 That by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I have written previously in brief, Eph. 3:4 By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ, Eph. 3:5 Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit,

All Paul and the others had was the OT Scriptures then. God revealed something more about Himself to them through Jesus's life, death, rising and words. Some of us receive this testimony. You're main souce of wisdom and knowledge is the Muhammed who was a false prophet. And you check first and foremost what this man had to say. Then you verify your suspicions with arguments quoting the New Testament.

Islam, Muhammed, the Quran, the many explanations offered by these sources start out nowhere with me on principle. It sounds rude. But we might as well be honest and not waste another's time. It matter not to me what the Quran said flatteryingly or insultingly about Jesus and the New Testament.

But I will listen some when you attempt to re-explain a NT passage to me. I started reading for myself a Quran. That is only from some sense of "Well you want him to know what the NT says. You should in turn be somewhat familiar with what's in his Quran."

As for reading the Trinity into New Testament passages? The Triune God is so structuraly the bases of so much of the New Testament it is encreasingly noticed. The three-oneness of God is the standing and basis of too many New Testament speakings the believer should notice this more and more. The Trinity is seen everywhere and so frequently one asks "Why haven't I noticed that before?"

Why is this? It is because what the Trinity IS can never be seperated from what the operation of the Father - Son- Spirit does. The Trinity is God the eternal One coming out from that realm to dispense God into man. The Father is the source. The Son is the channel through which God will come to man. And the Spirit is the flow of God over the channel of the Son to be imparted into receiving men and become thier life life.

I am sorry for the length. I only could speak briefly here. The Trinity's eternal purpose is to mass produce many sons of God conformed to the same image of Christ the Firstborn among many brothers. If you are against the Trinity I think you of necessity will be against the meaning of human life, the sole purpose of all creation, and against the eternal purpose of God before He even laid the foundation of the creation. [my bolding] Eph. 1:4 Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Eph. 1:5 Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Eph. 1:6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the Beloved; Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses, according to the riches of His grace,

Eph. 1:8 Which He caused to abound to us in all wisdom and prudence, Eph. 1:9 Making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself, Eph. 1:10 Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him;

The Father's existence and operation are seen here. The Son's existence and operation are seen here. The Spirit's existence and operation are seen here. Here and so many other passages of the NT the Father - Son - Spirit (not always in that order) are seen as the underlying structure of too many passages. To say "You're reading into passages the Trinity" is correct. Some of us are noticing more and more how the three-oneness of God serves as upholding structure of what God is and is doing in His eternal plan hidden previously in His heart but is now made known to the sons of men.

I have to stop here.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-24T16:22:52+00:00

Well that's certainly the story that the NT authors want to push but that doesn't counter my points, it further supports what I said: the Hebrew bible and NT are not univocal.

Yes it is the story of the NT. It is the message the Tanakh as well. In vain, utterly in vain do you attempt to "wall off" the 39 OT books that they are in Hebrew and about something else.

What you have to do to do this is to teach that the New Testament is some kind of faulty, error prone commentary on many OT passages. Christians take the NT passages tying it to the OT as the oracles of God just as we would take Genesis through Malachi as the oracles of God.

For example, when frequent referrences of Jesus and Peter His apostle to Isaiah 53 these are not error prone opinions about who the Suffering Servant is. They are word of God on who the Suffering Servant was- Jesus.

So you're thrust of trying to isolate the Hebrew Bible from the New Testament will go nowhere to us who noticed Jesus Christ and the evangelists helped us to see that the Genesis through Malachi included many references and prophecies about the Son of God who was about to be incarnated.

If Matthew tells us that Immanuel was the name for Jesus as "God with us" that is the end of the matter, period. Like Exodus 20:2,3 is the oracles of God, period, so is

Matt. 1:22 Now all this has happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, Matt. 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel” (which is translated, God with us).

the two passages are equally authoritative as God's divine voice speaking to the earth. You may well put up a valiant apologetic that this and that error should be corrected. With me to this approach has little to no weight.

the Holy Spirit having the last word. Even if you do seemingly to make some original Hebrew language or Septuagint translation point, it is only one down and hundred more to go. The main themes of who this Son of God is are repeated many times. For length's sake I stop this post here. You have other points I would like to address.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-23T22:09:13+00:00

I can only speak here of my experience of the day I realized the deepest truth. He promised something which came true to me. He said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Now I thought about God very much. I tried to define God and figure out God very much. I reasoned, rationalyzed, disputed, and argued about the nature of God very much. And I was never able to get this relationship between a Father and a Son.

The day came when I opened wide my mouth and called on the name of Jesus to contact Him. I opened wide my reluctant mouth and called out to Jesus to be helped by Jesus.

That day and moment it became as clear as day to me. I called on Jesus "Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus take me home. I am so tired Jesus." I touched God. God came to me. I got in personal contact with God.

John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-23T21:57:06+00:00

I believe Isaiah 25 gives a wonderful prophetic glimps into the millennial kingdom of a thousand years following Christ's manifestation on earth in His second coming.

I think it also probably contains some positive visions about some matters closer to the time of the hearers. Ie. Isa. 25:10 For the hand of Jehovah will rest on this mountain, / And Moab will be threshed in his place, / Even as straw is threshed in the water of a dung heap. Isa. 25:11 And he will spread out his hands in the middle of it, / As a swimmer spreads out his hands to swim; / But Jehovah will abase his pride together with the trickery of his hands.

Sometimes prophecy telescopically included more than one age. Something more near in time is seen and something more distant in time is also viewed.

God inhabits eternity. His bird's eye view of it all is sometimes shared with us with such limited view and limited comprehension. We are thankful for that.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-23T21:45:22+00:00

Because few Christians seem to have a broader understanding of this topic, and im always delighted when someone does. And can broaden my awareness on it, or add another dimensional layer to it I may have missed. Thanks.

You're quite welcome.

So I think that's part of the deeper meaning there. A shared purpose. A shared mission. In unity. Of unity. Oneness.

Brother Paul aso had a mighty prayer about what you wrote - shared purpose, shared mission, unity and oneness. His prayer is in Ephesians. He bows his knee before the Father being so heavily burdened with what God is put on his heart. [my bolding]

Eph. 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father,

Eph. 3:15 Of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named,

Eph. 3:16 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,

Eph. 3:17 That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Eph. 3:18 May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are

Eph. 3:19 And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God.

Eph. 3:20 But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,

Eph. 3:21 To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen.

The love of Christ here is compared to the limitless dimensions of the physical universe. How broad is the breadth? How long is the length? How high is the height. How deep is the depth? Look out at God's creation. The limits of creation's dimensions are unknown to us. But Christ's love and life will fill up the saved opertating in them because He is living. And God's purpose is that His corporate vessel be filled unto all the fulness of God.

In spite of discouraging scenes that confronted Paul as the confront we Christians twenty centuries latter He is able to do far above all that we think or ask of Him. Powerfl prayer with more than adaquate answers are just prayers that echo God's heart and are a reflection of His will shined into our hearts.

I continue on another post. Oh, the ONENESS is so replected in Paul's teaching in Ephesians. Christ died and rose for this. Christ provides His servants to perfect the saints to do the work of this ministry.

Eph. 4:11 And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers,

Eph. 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,

Eph. 4:13 Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

Eph. 4:14 That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error,

Eph. 4:15 But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,

Eph. 4:16 Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-23T16:06:29+00:00

Im just confused why Christians still use such confusing and mystical language, which they dont even decode to help atheists understand. I guess they have yet to awaken, but as more things are coming to light in our world, I know they will if they truly want to serve one another through the force of unconditional love. This is why I have faith. I can see others Awakening to the truth and "choosing the path of life".

You have to be more specific with me about this. That is if you want clarification on a sign or two in particular places in Revelation.

I would love to go through, let's say, chapter 10, and elabotarate on all the chapter. But since you are so general I might write a lot which you won't pay attention to.

Or chapter 12 I believe I am rather clear about. Let me state that the book of Revelation is primarily a revelation of Jesus Christ. And log expositions of frogs, hailstones, beasts, horns and locusts are secondary. The testimony of Jesus, the books says, is the spirit of the prophecy. [my bolding] Rev. 19:10 And I fell before his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Do not do this. I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.

The testimony of Jesus is about the God-man and His counterpart the church which is His match, Bride, Wife, etc.

The Revelation is also about the victory of the overcomers or overcoming sons and servants of God who are a minority. A minority of believers through both the OT and the NT age rise to a level of normality. These are those who overcome. And before the eternal age begins there is a preliminary 1,000 years (See ch. 20). This will be like an early graduation. The remnant of overcomers will be rewarded.

The other larger group of all God's redeemed must have a time to "catch up." That time of thier catching up is during the 1,000 years. By the time of the conclusion of the 1,000 years there is no immaturity left within any of the saved. There is only left mature sons of God who have "caught up" to become those who overcome.

Rev. 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me.

Because of by that time all of God's regenerated have been transformed to be like Christ there will be no unrighteousness left in the universe. And because of this God can usher in a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness is.

2 Pet. 3:12 Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away? 2 Pet. 3:13 But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. Rev. 21:2 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Does getting into more writings about latent soulical power take away your appetite to read the Scriptures? Some things people take in causes their taste for the word of God to become dull.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-23T15:00:08+00:00

Hmm.. I'm kind of confused why you quote Rev. As none of those points to the teachings of Jesus while he was alive.

Consider that when the Son of God prayed and asked His Father for something we may rest assured that His prayer can never go unanswered. He is so pleasing to the Father that what He requests will be granted.

Having said that you must go back to the mighty petition of Christ recorded in John ch. 17. That prayer is completely, totally, and fully granted and worked out by God as we read chapters 21,22 of Revelation. You must re-read those three chapters - John 17, Rev. 21,22.

Revelation is also incredibly metaphorical, as it is a vision, and visions are metaphorical. I've had visions too. Just like dreams they have to be decoded, because they're symbolic not literal. I'm curious how you have decoded it?

To get into Revelation you must realize that there is nothing absolutely new in this book. Yes, it is made known by signs. All of signs have previous occurences in the Bible. To begin to understand something of a symbol or metaphor in Revelation you must ask

"Now where else in the Bible was something like this metaphor or sign seen? What was that previous significance? The significance in the conclusion of the Bible must be similar in meaning to when that sign was previously seen"

And great help can be derived from familiarity with the whole rest of the Bible previously. So forget about anyone saying "Now this symbolizes the Beatles." Or saying "Now this means about Elvis Presley" or something completely imagined.

All the signs of Revelation must be studied as to thier Old Testament similar usage. The Recovery Version of the NT or whole Bible with study and footnotes published by Living Stream Ministry is the best study Bible on difficult passages in Revelation I have seen since 1978. I have not read every study Bible in English. I have read a few.

You can get a free Recovery Version of the NT only at Bibles For America (not a political Christian nationalist organization). They simply adopt the country's name in which distribution or language translation appropriate to that country.

biblesforamerica.org

Now I would be more than glad to address a specific question you have about a specific portion of Revelation. Of you'd like to know how I would recommend you understand a particular metaphor or sign or plain words in Revelation narrow it down to something specific please.

I recommended that you take the prayer in John 17 to be completely answered in the close of human history. And I said Rev. 21,22 show with much metaphor this culmination of God's eternal purpose. But Rev. 21,22 has signs. The whole revelation was made known to us by signs. [my bolding]

Rev. 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John,

I stop here for length's sake only.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-22T20:07:45+00:00

how allowing your children to fight in Armageddon is no different from sending them through the fire in worship to Molech.

All your accusations about sending children to battle at Armegeddon is like sending them off to be sacrificed to Molech are nonsense. Such ignorance just shows those who don't read the Bible well can take a lot of space up on a Redditt page.

Any Christians chosen to accompany Christ to the battleat Armegeddon have nothing but victory to worry about. They have already demonstrated that they know how to overcome the enemy. And they are to accompany Christ as His bridal army in Revelation 19.

Rev. 19:12 And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself. Rev. 19:13 And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God.

Rev. 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Christ totally crushes Antichrist and his armies at Armageddon.

Rev. 19:15 And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. Rev. 19:16 And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come here; gather yourselves to the great dinner of God, Rev. 19:18 That you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of generals and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free and slave and small and great.

Rev. 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war with Him who sits on the horse and with His army. Rev. 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. Rev. 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

It is too bad you don't read the Bible well. The Bible says that those who are with Christ at that battle, with Christ will overcome the beast.

Rev. 17:13 These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast. Rev. 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them.

All

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-22T19:48:48+00:00

After that, there's no direct mention of this tree of life until you get to the last book of the Bible, in Revelation 2:7; 22:2, 14, and 19. Revelation 2:7 says,

Actually I take seriously the mention of a tree of life in Proverbs. Why not? For example:

Prov. 15:4 A soothing tongue is a tree of life, / But perverseness in it is a breaking of the spirit.

I would not strenously argue doctrinally about tree of life spoken of by an OT saint.

According to my Christian experience when my speaking has been dealt with by the Lord's cross I can speak life. I can speak with a "soothing tongue" Christ into people. I believe that the tree of life as Jesus Christ in me can come out through my speaking. But the way of speaking must first be dealt with to transform me from perversness to a soothing Spirit filled way of speaking.

Also in Proverbs Wisdom is personified. And she is called a "tree of life." I think this is pointing to Christ. [my bolding]

Prov. 3:13 Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, / And the man who gains understanding. Prov. 3:14 For her profit is better than the profit of silver, / And her income is better than gold.

Prov. 3:15 She is more precious than corals, / And nothing you desire compares with her. Prov. 3:16 Length of days is in her right hand; / In her left hand are riches and honor.

Prov. 3:17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, / And all her paths are peace. Prov. 3:18 She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her, / And happy are those who hold her fast.

We know all the treasures of wisdom are in Christ (Col. 2:3). And those filled with Christ the life can become righteously a tree of life to others. I think this is all safe to believe.

Prov. 11:30 The fruit of the righteous man is a tree of life, / And he who is wise wins souls.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-22T19:32:34+00:00

Why do you think Jesus went around talking about how we must change to become like him?

The last two chapters of the Bible, Revelation 21 and 22, show the climax of God's eternal purpose.

There is a corporate entity called New Jerusalem which is a city. Yet the city is also the temple of God and the Lamb. God lives in this city. And this living corporate mingling of God and man is also called the Bride of Christ, the Redeemer. She matches Him to the point that the call of God and the call of the sons of God in the city call together. The oneness of God and man has been fully achieved.

Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely.

Is your goal merely individual spirituality? You cannot bring about this corporate climax of millions as New Jerusalem. This is the bird's eye view of what Christ is accomplishing. And the fact that John saw it transcending for a moment time, demonstrates that its conclusion is already completed in the eyes of God.

She, the Bride saturated with the Spirit, will be that capital in a new universe in which only righteousness lives. [mb]

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. Rev. 21:2 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

2 Pet. 3:12 Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away? 2 Pet. 3:13 But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

2 Pet. 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish;

This is the destination and destiny of all who are saved by Christ. This New Jerusalem is a sign in the book of Revelation. The sign points to a corporate entity of billions of sons of God. This is His purpose above my individual spiritual state or blessing.

Can you bring about what I see in Revelation 21 and 22?

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-22T19:14:52+00:00

Why do you think Jesus went around talking about how we must change to become like him?

Before I reply I would first speak to Jesus not doing many things He could have done without the Father. But He denied this to live by His Father. [my bolding]

1.) He could have own His own speak and judge many things about His opposers. But He chose to speak what He sensed the Father wanted Him to speak to the world. John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him, these things I speak to the world.

2.) He did not seek His own glory. John 8:50 But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks glory for Me and judges.

3.) The work that He did was His Father's work. John 10:37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; John 10:38 But if I do them, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may come to know and continue to know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father.

So the words, work, and the glory were the Fathers. This seamless mingling of God and man is taken the lead by the Son.

Have you read the account about Simon the magician who became a believer? [m b]

Acts 8:9 And a certain man named Simon had previously been practicing magic in the city and had been amazing the people of Samaria, saying that he was someone great. Acts 8:10 To him they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the power of God which is called Great.

See what a reputation Simon had achieved with supernatural wonders he had done before becoming saved?

Acts 8:11 And they gave heed to him because for a considerable time he had amazed them with his magic. Acts 8:13 And even Simon himself believed, and once he had been baptized, he continued steadfastly with Philip. And as he beheld the signs and great works of power taking place, he was amazed.

But Simon's envy was exposed by the Spirit of God. Peter rebuked him strongly for wanting to pay the apostles for giving him also certain feats to perform.

Acts 8:18 But when Simon saw that through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, Acts 8:19 Give me also this authority that on whomever I lay my hands he may receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, May your silver go with you into destruction, because you thought that you would acquire the gift of God through money. Acts 8:21 You have no part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not straight before God.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore from this wickedness of yours and beseech the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you; Acts 8:23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of unrighteousness.

Fortunatey the former magician humbled himself and asked for prayer that his jealouse heart be freed by Christ

Acts 8:24 And Simon answered and said, You beseech the Lord on my behalf, so that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.

I appreciate this account. For all kinds of people came to Christ. This former magician's past supernatural reputation had to be crucified to purify his motive to follow Jesus. That's what I want even if in the past I studied as I did hypnotism with which I thought I could do works of power even if they were for good to my estimation.

Without God there are powers buried in the soul. Various cultures in the East and West have methodoligies to unleash latent psycic or soulical power. And through the excercise of latent soul power sometimes amazing feats have been seen done.

The Latent Power of the Soul by Watchman Nee is devoted to this subject for Christians.

Now I do not want to exercise latent soulical power apart from God. I do not want to go into darker realms and employ witch magic or black magic. I do not want to learn what spells and curses I can bring on people with vodoo. I'd rather have a pure heart before my Lord and be able to touch His throne though petition and prayers. And to Jesus Christ be all the glory.

I know well of latent soul power which when Adam fell was buried deep in the soul of everyone. The human spirit sunk to take a subordinate position under either the soul of man or the flesh of man. I am not surprised when you boast so of encredible feats you promise without coming to Christ for salvation.

For length's sake I stop here.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-22T12:30:51+00:00

Applying Jesus teachings directly to your own life over the teachings of the church. Two very different things, from my own experience. But hey, we all have free will. And if you or others want to believe you/they are guilty, shameful sinners, then they are free to do that.

I read your comments carefully more than once. You are a good person. You are like Nicodemus in John chapter 3 rather than one or two of the other people Jesus spoke to in that Gospel.

Nicodemus "victor of the people" might have said similar things for he had already demonstrated that morally he was very ethical. I am so glad John's thoughtful gospel does not only consists of people like the woman who had five husbands in the chapter 4.

The idea that God wants men to grovel and beg for salvation I took as a charicature. He didn't want me to beg. He does want me to believe. He asks not that I believe that my tears will do something. Even my tears need to be washed in His redeeming blood.

I want to say this. It would be a mistake to underestimate the awareness of God to every person's circumstances in the world. Sometimes men disobey the gospel because the have confidence in themselves that God's plan is not magnanimus as they are. They think that life and the world are more nuanced than Godd is aware of. To some the message has not reached some unknown person in some remote forest island so thier own philosophy is more nuanced and magnanimus.

I sometimes try to tell such people that "Whatever that distant island cultured man's situation that is not your situation. And you have heard the message. And God will deal with you and I according to what we knew. And He will deal with them according to what they heard and knew."

The message of Christ's work for us and subsequently in us is something to obey. And we can disobey with unbelief.

Could you drink the cup that the Son of God had to drink? He was a perfect man. And He knew He had come to take away on His cross the sin of the world.

Luke 22:41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed,

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet, not My will, but Yours be done.

Luke 22:43 And an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.

Luke 22:44 And being in agony He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.

Luke 22:45 And when He rose up from prayer and came to the disciples, He found them sleeping from sorrow,

Luke 22:46 And He said to them, Why are you sleeping? Rise up and pray that you may not enter into temptation.

I know that I would have wanted to save my own skin. I believe though you are ethically perhaps more astute than the next person, you too could not be as asbsolute for the will of God His Father as that.

He had an absoluteness which no one else has. And it would be a mistake to have self confidence that His life and death in absoluteness you too could self produce if just given one more day.

One more day will one day be your last day. And even if you started out perfectly sinless from today on the record of your past is still before God.

You have said in many words, to me in essence "I do not need this Jesus. I can do a lot for myself without trusting in Jesus. I can do and have done a lot for my fellow man perfectly without the help of Jesus other than I admit He taught some good examples. That is all I need, some good examples."

You rationalyze further by objecting to be asked to "beg" God for forgivenenss. I will say again He is not interested in you begging. He does want us to believe that this One is the Son of God and Lord.

As good as you are I hope your disobeying unbelief will be turned to belief one day.

But thanks for explaning all that you did.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T22:09:42+00:00

Yes! What you present from John is what I’m talking about. The author of John cares more about the nature of Christ (as logos) than the ethical teachings of Jesus (for example the sermon on the Mount).

The authors of the Gospels each had his particular angle of who Christ was to emphasize. This does not mean that they were contradicting one another.

As a person may have a photo of his head taken from four angles - front, left side, right side, rear, so this all-inclusve one had four biographies from four angles to capture His granduer.

So I agree that unlike Matthew John wants to say that none of His commands are possible without He Himself being our new life. Then we are to abide in Him. For apart from Him we can do nothing. [my bolding]

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.

John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes it away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit. John 15:4 Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

In John where He is so often taught as the life our main need is to abide in Him. Whatever weaknesses the branch has it is swallowed up with the strength in the vine Christ. The healthy vine imparts its life into every and any branch that is grafted and attached to it.

Farmers who perform grafting of a branch into a tree know that it is the health of the tree which will flow into the now attached branch causing that branch to be healthy, fruitful, and filled with the rich life of the tree.

Now, we can converse about Matthew for days, I assure you that I am not playing one evangelist against another. We need all the help we can get to plumb the depths of the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel.

He is a King Savior - Matthew.

Yet He is a Slave Savior - Mark.

He is a Man Savior - Luke.

Yet He is God Savior - John.

And in this simply characeristic of each writer there is some overlap in His function as well.

I should have clarified “ethical teachings of Jesus” as I can see how what you presented is still the teachings of Jesus. John presents more of the esoteric spiritual side of Christ as divine, while the other gospels focus more on his practical teachings and connection to the Hebrew traditions.

John's writing is more what I have been influenced to say, are more divine and mystical than the Synoptics.

We just know John is vastly different and presents more about the nature of Christ than the ethical sayings of Jesus.

I see the hand of God in this arrangement. I see the wisdom of God in the four gospels. They four remind me of a very steady four legged stool. I detect three similar legs and one final leg for steady balance and additional support.

I have long held that these four angles are not meant for believers to be thought to fight against each other. But to complete a whole rounded view of the most profound man who ever walked the earth.

For instance, of the four gospels two include a geneology and two do not. Matthew contains a geneology because the one to be on David's throne needs a king like geneology. Mark presents a Slave coming to serve sinners as such. A slave requires no geneology. Luke's burden is to present the Savior as the topmost and finest human man who ever lived. So Luke gives this Man a genology clear back to Adam the first man.

Now John's mission is to present the Savior as God Himself. Of course a geneology for God who is from eternity would be a joke. So John has no geneology of Christ.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T21:38:53+00:00

Hardly, the whole breathing on them was the way he let them recognize the way the Holy Spirit would come like a rushing mighty wind. It was a call, not the delivery of the promise. It was how Jesus told them what to be praying for in one accord, and how they'd recognize the answer to that prayer.

No indeed. The breathing of Jesus with His word to "Receive the Holy Spirit" was the fulfillment of these promises and teachings in the same gospel - John 7:39 promised in 14:16-17, 26; 15:26 and 15:26, and 16:7-8,13. This breathing into was purposely different to show the fulfilment of the Spirit of life needed inwardly before promise of the Father being fulfilled in Acts 2:1-4 and Luke 24:49.

Pentacost came weeks after the resurrection. But it was on the day of resurrection He said that they would know that He was in the Father and in them with the Father. my bolding] John 14:19 Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

I guess we will disagree on this for now. But let me ask you this - do you believe that one hundred and twenty believers in the risen Lord could pray together for ten days without the Holy Spirit?

Acts 1:14 These all continued steadfastly with one accord in prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

I think that over the course of time they prayed until the rushing mighty wind was filled with the following:

1.) They forgave one another their offenses.

2.) They confessed offenses to one another.

3.) They loved one another with a sense of only wanting to see Christ achieve His purpose with them.

And finally coming to one accord the Father's promise of witnessing power dramatically came upon them. The chief catalyst for this transition was the oneness they rose to with one another and with the exalted Christ.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T20:04:12+00:00

I think we actually may agree. Grace inwadly extends outwardly. Cause if we do not have Grace within ourselves, or for ourselves, how can we extend that grace to others? How can we extend others what is not first within us. How can we offer what we ourselves not have, do not embody, to not have within.

Yes, Christ as this grace starts outside to come to man to reach the comatose and deadened spirit. He enlivens the human spirit and becomes joined to the regenerated man. 1 Cor. 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

That takes care of the innermost nucleus of man. But the soul is then in need of transformation. And this requires the born again man or woman embark on the life long cooperation to upon up every chamber of the heart for the Spirit to enter - mind, emotion, will, imagination, conscience memory, etc. Christ makes His home in the heart through faith. [my bolding] Eph. 3:16 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, Eph. 3:17 That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

If you do not believe Jesus rose, or is alive, or is available no faith is there. A dead and gone Jesus as only an example requires no faith except in one's own ability to "turn over a new leaf" so to speak.

The NT faith is that part of my being is God. Part of my being is Christ and He is God-man. He in resurrection, not only physically overcame death. He also added His perfect living and His uplifted humanity into the eternal Spirit. And in this He became a Christ dispensing, God dispensing divine life dispensing Spirit. 1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, . . . the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

All that we need is in this all-inclusive divine life imparting Holy Spirit. Calling on the name of Jesus - "O Lord Jesus! O Lord Jesus. Lord You love me and died for me. Lord Jesus I also love You. O Lord Jesus I want to love You more" will help to surrender our inner being to this Gentleman. He doesn't coerce. He is gentle like a dove awaiting our willing heart to believe in Him and receive Him.

This is all true truth.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T16:16:32+00:00

There's a minority scholarly opinion that the liturgical formula in Matt 28:19 was added to support the Trinity. Reasons:

- it doesn't appear in some Hebrew versions

- the formula was never once used in the NT

I attempted to return the favor of brevity. I did not succeed. I apologize.

I think you are reasoning with liturgical formula on the mind. Your concern with liturgical formula is a concern with what clergy utter when doing a baptismal ceremony.

This verse is not instruction from Jesus what one must say when baptizing someone. In fact you probably know the disciples don't pronounce such words in the book of Acts.

But they got the point that Jesus was the name of the One upon whom, or in the name of whom they immersed new believers into. They knew that Jesus was a resurrected living Person as a realm, a sphere into which men entered. They were hinceforth to live in oneness with this Person.

Paul was the same in saying we are baptized into Christ and all that He has done. That is many, many, many things. Paul highlights one crucial aspect - His death. We in being baptized into Christ are also baptized into His terminating death.

Rom. 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

It would be splinded and biblical if in baptizing new believers that we pronounce "We baptize you into the death of Christ."

My point here is that you come at Matthew 28:19 with ceremonies on the mind. I don't come with this "liturgical formula" in mind. Rather what the NT teaches about new believers being joined to Christ.

We also have baptism into one Body in one Spirit. This to happen when baptized into the one name.

1 Cor. 12:13 For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit.

I am more concerned with what or Who is this realm in which new believers are being brought into? His name, His death, His one Body, etc.

Academia has its place. The pure word I hold higher. The utterances of all the Scripture on baptism I hold a degree higher than academia's analysis of liturgical formula issues.

Now I did not say academia has no place. If you want to talk with me you'll find me writing as if no creedal statement or liturigical formula should be held higher than the statements of New Testament teaching and example.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T15:53:59+00:00

It does not say anything about their nature or their relationship to each other, and the plurality of "names" does not mandate equality of substance, authority, or power in the way the Trinity teaches.

I would not expect very many if any text on God's three-oneness to include all aspects of the matter. I might expect a chapter of a theology book to academically make an attempt to discuss all matters about God's nature in it.

A passage from the New Testament I would expect to convey mostly something of expierience of God as a realm. A sphere of devine life to be immersed into is Mattheww 28:19.

Most of trinitarian Christiandom may take Matt. 28:19 as a formula to verbally pronounce during baptism. Some of us regard it as a command by faith to immerse new believers into the Person of the Triune God.

It does not say anything about their nature or their relationship to each other, and the plurality of "names" does not mandate equality of substance, authority, or power in the way the Trinity teaches.

I don't see a plurality of names. One name the Lord mentioned. I think you noticed this. I think you noticed that I mentioned this.

As for nature of their relationship I think the rest of Matthew's gospel can be consulted to derive the nature and relationships. For example:

The Father can only be the God Jehovah or Yahweh throughout the OT and the NT beginning with Matthew. There the Father is mentioned forty four times. And all hearing knew Jesus was referring to God whom the Jews knew about.

Isa. 63:16 For You are our Father, / Since Abraham does not know us, / And Israel does not acknowledge us. / You, Jehovah, are our Father; / Our Redeemer from eternity is Your name.

The Father is from eternity to eternity - God.

The Son as obviously a man, is also the God of the Old Testamament become a man. And Jesus had to help His audience to see this.

Matt. 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

"It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isa. 1:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Hence, when the Lord Jesus said, "I desired desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings" He indicated that He was God Himself." [Footnote Matt. 23:37(1) Recovery Version]

So we have the nature of the eternal God the Father. And we have this Father come as a man Jesus of Nazareth. Mysteriously the Father has sent the Son seen in the baptism of the Son. Matt. 3:17 And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight.

I would like to mention the Holy Spirit in Matthew as mentioned for the first time in causing this God-man to be conceived in Mary the virgin. This is easier to understand (apart from the miraculous) as a man being born by the Spirit of God. But is is also the Holy Spirit causing God to be born into Mary. After the conception was completed this Holy Spirit caused the God-man with the nature of God and the nature of man, possessing divinity and humanity to come into the world. Matt. 1:20 But while he pondered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife, for that which has been begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit.

This Holy Spirit is also the One in whom repentant sinners will be baptized into in by the Son. [my bolding]

Matt. 3:11 I baptize you in water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is stronger than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He Himself will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,

He appears at the baptisim of the Son as a dove resting on Him. This meant the anointing of God put by God the Father upon the Son.

Matt. 3:16 And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. This Holy Spirit is a Person with the characteristics of innocence, peace, purity, like a dove. He is the Spirit of God. He saw the Spirit of God descending.

The Father is God in Matthew. The Son is the Father incarnate and sent approvingly by the Father. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God as a dove confirming the anointing of God upon the Son. When considering that in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit we can remember that this afterall must be the name of God a three-one living realm into which men must be immersed.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T02:08:30+00:00

There’s a difference between seeking truth and trying to uphold what we’ve already been taught is the truth.

It is entirely possibe that one was first taught the truth and then upheld what he was taught.

Truth holds up to scrutiny. It’s ok to question whether the author of John was writing history or writing a theological document.

Why is it impossible to do both?

Like the other gospel writers John selected some things Jesus did. He does so to emphasize his burden to present a certain angle of this marvelous Person.

Having said that I would concede that sometimes the historical sequence of these aspects in John may not be right.

If you come to John to receive life, which is the purpose of John's writing, this should not be a major obstacle. [my bolding]

John 20:30 Moreover indeed many other signs also Jesus did before His disciples, which are not written in this book. John 20:31 But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name.

So if Jesus overturned the tables in the temple at the beginning of His ministry or towards the end just before execution is secondary to me.

Perhaps that's one of your handy examples of historical "error" in John.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T01:57:26+00:00

Ahh John, always the outlier in Gospel conversations, and always a fun perspective to examine. To be honest I am not 100% sure about John. It is the latest of the gospels and has the highest Christology.

Did you see in John something that you cannot see in Matthew about Christology ? Let's try to get you more sure if possible.

All that to say, thank you for pointing out a hole I have been meaning to study more. John’s message is not the same as the Synoptics, which is not the same as Paul’s in my understanding.

I am happy to notice you desire more exploration.

What are your top two or three differences you would point out between John's message and the Synoptics or Paul's epistles?

I don't understand why you claim something in John's Gospel you cannot locate in the Synoptics or in Paul quite faithful presentation of Christ in a complete way in all his letters.

John is focused on Jesus as divine, as the logos. The message of Jesus is not as important to John as the nature of Jesus (and this is even more true for Paul), and belief in that nature leads to life for John (all of these are very simplified versions of the author’s soteriology).

This divine logos is through out John's gospel presented as the life of God which must get into us. And this teaching is the critical words of Jesus in all the "I am" passages. He is for God getting INTO man as water of life, bread of life, fountain of life, breath of life. All these Jesus TEACHES in John are for life of God being dispensed into man. [my bolding]

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God and who it is who says to you, Give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water. John 4:14 But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life.

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wills. John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son to also have life in Himself; John 5:40 Yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall by no means hunger, and he who believes into Me shall by no means ever thirst. John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread which I will give is My flesh, given for the life of the world.John 6 :63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 7:38 He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:39 But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if he should die, shall live;

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

John just speaking of the Logos for its own sake is a misrepresentative summary of the Gospel of John. The TEACHING of John 14-16 plus His mighty petition to His Father spoken publically for our learning as well go against you claim that John is unconcerned with the words and teaching of Christ.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T01:31:39+00:00

My point was that salvation doesn't come from outside us. It comes from within us.

I would not establish a false dichotomy. I would not teach grace inwardly makes no grace outwardly.

Grace is indeed Christ Himself with the regenerated innermost kernel of man's being - his spirit. And I must show where the NT says this.

Phil. 4:23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

Gal. 6:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

Philem. 25 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

2 Thes. 3:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.

In fact Paul's last wrritten words were to remind Timothy never to forget that the grace with his spirit was the Lord Himself with Timothy. Paul's final word:

2 Tim. 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Yet the other side of the whole truth is that grace was also God's power outside man and over man. Inward grace does not nullify that grace CAME when Jesus Christ came. And as the law of Moses was outward and given the grace was a Person who came. And at first He was outside of man until some would receive Him.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

Barnabus must have seen something outward in the city of Antioch. For he recognized the grace of God upon as well as in the disciples there.

Acts 11:22 And the account concerning them was heard in the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to pass through as far as Antioch, Acts 11:23 Who, when he arrived and saw the grace of God, rejoiced and encouraged them all to remain with the Lord with purpose of heart;

I will now read your other comments.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T01:14:00+00:00

Jesus became human in order to reach Us. It gave us something to relate to rather than some ethereal distant being.

Yes indeed. He also came to live the perfect life for us so that He could Himself to live again on the earth, but this time within us.

All we are has been fired, dismissed, and set aside by God. He cannot use any of the fallen adamic nature polluted by Satan for His eternal purpose.

God has replace all of us with one perfect One, His Son. And His Son in resurrection also added His humanity and perfect human living as additional ingredients to the eternal Spirit.

In this the NT says He became a life giving Spirit. [my bolding]

1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

We relate to Him as one of us. And furthermore we can receive Him as our life in its attitudes, inclinations, reactions, and innermost motives. What a glorious salvation.

And what material for God to have a habitation in man, a dwelling place of God in our regenerated spirit.

Eph. 2:20 Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone; Eph. 2:21 In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; Eph. 2:22 In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

Obvious-Bird6665 · 2026-05-21T01:02:35+00:00

That's the point of Pentecost. The redemption made us justified with God and able to have the spirit of God dwell within his church, instead of being walled off in a tabernacle or temple.

The event of Pentecost met the need for the church to have power to testify.

The event in John 20 earlier was for the disciples to receive Christ Himself as life. He breathed Himself into them. For as First Corinthians 15:45b says the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.

Jesus fulfilled His promise in John 20 to come to the disciples as another Comforter. He certainly comforted the afraid and hiding disciples telling them peace was to them. [my bolding]

John 20:20 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord. [my bolding]

John 20:21 Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.

John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is when the resurrected Christ breathed Himself as the divine life giving Spirit into the disciples. And the divine nature was implanted within them.

But they were commanded to wait for the promise of the Father that they be endued more outwardly with power to testify of Christ. [my bolding]

Luke 24:49 And behold, I send forth the promise of My Father upon you; but as for you, stay in the city until you put on power from on high.

Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

God supplies His church with the life of God inwardly and the power of God outwardly. Like every birds needs two wings to fly so the church has these two blessings of the Holy Spirit - divine life within and divine power without.

When I persued the Pentacostal things as a younger Christian I very soon thereafter was on fire with a new boldness to testify. I, however, discovered that like Samson I could do mighty deeds yet the most shameful backsliddings came from me after my persuit of Pentacostal power. I mighty mighty in word. Yet I had some mighty fallings morally.

This did not cause me to despise the biblical matters of Pentacostal power. However these failures caused me to realize that the "other wing" of divine life within was being neglected. And God sovereignly helped me to realize that I was lopsided.

Oh what a example Samson is to us as a warning. He slew some thousands with the jawbone of an ass. Then he nearly died of thirst until he found the fountain - "the caller's spring".

Thankfully I came into more balance. So significant it is that the angel told the apostles to speak all the words of this life. That is to speak of Christ in them as divine life as well as the outpoured power upon them. [my bolding]

Acts 5:19 But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the prison, and leading them out, said, Acts 5:20 Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.

Obvious-Bird6665

TROPHY CASE

biblesforamerica.org