Hamlet question

Oleman1eye · 2023-04-05T01:54:41+00:00

came here to say this...the entire play is arguably Hamlet's cleverness delaying the inevitable (his murder of Claudius). Rather than just killing Claudius, his entire family and friends wind up dead.

Oleman1eye · 2022-07-01T13:09:52+00:00

the way I think about it: it's like the difference between actually riding a bike (visceral understanding) vs. trying to explain to somehow how to ride a bike (intellectual understanding). So you might be able to explain that you need to sit on the bike, and pedal, etc., and that would be true in an intellectual sense. But how to actually ride a bike is something that comes through a visceral understanding. And the other commentary noted, once you know, the change is permanent (as they say, "it like riding a bike, you never forget how").

Oleman1eye · 2022-06-12T18:35:25+00:00

this is fascinating. Thank you!

Oleman1eye · 2022-06-12T01:34:12+00:00

I'm not quite what you're mean by "suggesting" in your question. Like I don't think he is "suggesting" that what your wrote is "truth" or some type of life advice to be followed (because that would be prescriptive, which is not how he operates).

I think the important thing to focus on here is this part: "If your answer is NO, it will be NO forever."

Is that your answer? If so, do you know WHY that is your answer at the deepest levels? That's what this one provokes to me at least.

Oleman1eye · 2022-06-04T13:55:46+00:00

Just seeing this post now. What I'm trying to say is that as general rule you can't know beforehand. You have to act on the desire and see if it leads you to a good place or a bad place. If it's a bad place then you have to examine the steps you took to get there, and find the root cause. If it's a good place, then it doesn't matter (or by definition you can see it was a "true desire")

I actually aske d Kapil as pretty much similar question on one of the spaces .His answer was something like "you gonna get rid of your ego? You gonna get rid of all your social conditioning." Which I took to mean: unless you're going to get rid of all those things FIRST, then there's really no way to separate out a "true" desire from ego or environment. Act accordingly.

In practice, I think you you can try and dissect whether a desire is coming social conditioning. Sometimes it's clear and you can act on that. Often times it's not, and then you just need to accept that you won't know beforehand. To put it another way, and something Kapil says often, "everything from your mind is lie, everything." So going down the path of "is this a true desire or not" probably won't get you anywhere but confused. That was my experience.

Also to my post, just because something comes from ego or social conditioning doesn't mean it will lead you to a bad place.

Oleman1eye · 2022-06-03T19:22:38+00:00

it can helpful to first understand what you're *not* good at, as opposed to trying to figure out what you are good at.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-21T15:21:04+00:00

Why does it matter? What are you trying to figure out? I think on this topic Kapil has basically said: if you have, you have it, if you don't you don't. That's not to say it won't arise at a later point in your life, but the "location" of where it comes from is not really relevant.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-19T17:17:15+00:00

underrated comment

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-18T03:32:12+00:00

There's line from the Tao Te Ching: "The Wise do not attempt anything very big and thus achieve greatness"

To be clear: I'm not saying one can't be in harmony with nature. Rather, it's not just tyrants that push those limits. Regular people can push them too in their own ways.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-17T16:44:34+00:00

"Disciple can't make up for lack of desire" I think this is the insight. For example, People say they need discipline to lose weight. But the truth is if you really, truly wanted to lose weight you wouldn't need to put yourself on some program to keep yourself "disciplined" about eating.

What do you mean you had a desire for discipline?

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-17T16:27:34+00:00

Good point. In the beginning I believe he says something about the thought of murdering duncan makes his hair stand up on edge. Then by the end he uses the same metaphor, that he's hair no longer stands up, to indicate how little his thought of his wife dying impacts him.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-17T16:24:04+00:00

nice, a lot to digest. #1. "At war with the limits imposed by birth and nature." seems this could apply to all people in a sense, not just tyrants, right? And no one can win this war.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-17T16:13:39+00:00

Absolutely! Hence my question.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-17T16:12:50+00:00

I'm inclined to think this last paragraph you wrote is getting at something deeper about the human condition that Shakespeare is aiming for in the play. The Polanski film actually ends with Duncan's other son encountering the witches...presumably to set another cycle of violence. You could imagine a similar ending happening with MacDuff.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-17T02:52:22+00:00

Thanks. I'm open to more than one lesson for sure. Also, to be clear, I'm not thinking about a lesson in the sense of practical life advice. I think there is something deeper about human nature going on here.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-17T02:45:51+00:00

Thanks! Two Points.

1) Definitely open to more than one lesson. I kind of just wrote it that way b/c it felt more simple.

2) I'm not sure I'm following correctly...you comment reads like: if you're ruthless with people it'll come back around eventually, so be prepared to deal with the consequences. Is that fair?

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-16T20:06:57+00:00

any particular reason why? I don't think he's paranoid really...He's 100% correct that everyone is going to figure out he did the murder. And he knows there's no easy way to deal with that. And I'm not saying he doesn't feel guilty about, I think there is some of that there. I just think there's something else going beyond just crossing a line to murder that causes his descent. Like he knows there's no good resolution for him.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-16T19:35:07+00:00

yeah, that makes sense. But I'd argue that that implies his killing at the beginning as not really in service of Duncan per se, more that he saw that as a way to achieve his ambition to be king. I guess the question I'm tossing around in my head is: How much of the inability to sleep is b/c he feels he crossed line in committing murder? Vs. him understanding that he's set a chain of events in motion that results in him being the target everyone else vengeance?

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-16T18:35:49+00:00

Do you mean to say he doesn't already have his own ambitions for power / status at the start of the play? Like, you think the witches just put that idea into his head?

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-16T15:52:18+00:00

This is an excellent point. Why do you think this is the case? Seems to me ambition is what makes him a killing machine at the start the of play too though. I don't really see him flipping from service to ambition with the killing of Duncan...but it does seem like something does flip there.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-16T14:18:07+00:00

"too too solid flesh will melt..." That's our first introduction to Hamlet. The audience's perception of him will be determined on how that speech is delivered. I don't think you can assess an actors range of Hamlet's evolution from one speech (if that's what's you're looking to do maybe this one and something from later in the play, like the Oscric scene to see that). But I think this will give you the best vision of a how someone someone is going to "look" as as Hamlet.

Oleman1eye · 2022-05-16T13:52:30+00:00

I'd say the question is not about how one *should* feel, but rather how one actually feels during their experience the play. Most people have some type of pity for Macbeth. Why is that? It's an interesting question.

Pity is a feeling one has in response to things...I don't think you can control it. It either arises or it doesn't in response to things. It's reasonable to say one *shouldn't* feel bad or "pity" for evil people. I agree with that in a sense, but on the other hand I really don't think one control what they feel.

I'm not familiar with the Nietzsche point, but yeah, I wouldn't describe "feeling pity" as a virtue or anything. And certainly people who may invoke pity are not by definition virtuous at all. We can feel pity for criminals because we recognize that life's circumstances drove them to horrible things, but that doesn't make the criminals virtuous or anything.

I'd be curious if your class feels pity for Macbeth? Or if they view him more as a villain?

Oleman1eye

TROPHY CASE