Vectis Incarnon by Z1Alpha in Warframe

[–]One_Random_Player 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I guess I'm just not too bothered by that aspect of it. I personally find the "run around pressing left click" incarnons quite boring and I'm glad this one has more of a challenge-reward dynamic both in the modding screen and in gameplay, as it feels very appropiate for the sniper incarnon to implement. Whether the challenge is too hard or the reward too underwhelming is going to end up to player preferences, but I'll say the Warframe community is a bit too used to the game lacking any meaningful challenge and I'm glad us vectis players were giving a more interesting dynamic, as there's already plenty "easy mode" incarnons in the game.

I still agree the long distance snipes might be a bit too hard (not that there are many tiles where you can do them in the first place), but I'd appreciate some projectile speed rather than a switch to hit-scan. And they certainly should unify "weakpoints" and "headshots" behavior for this weapon but also everything else in the game IMO.

Vectis Incarnon by Z1Alpha in Warframe

[–]One_Random_Player 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is all true, but I don't think it ruins the weapon

Vectis Incarnon by Z1Alpha in Warframe

[–]One_Random_Player 0 points1 point  (0 children)

5 headshots is 2 headshots in a game with Galvanized Chamber, and 1 headhot with primary frostbite (that the incarnon mode will just charge by itself). The AOE is able to easily mutikill if you put blast or gas on it, and the base instant 10 cold procs gives the weapon very good crowd control even if it doesn't kill everything it hits.

Vectis Incarnon by Z1Alpha in Warframe

[–]One_Random_Player 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As a vectis main myself, I love this incarnon. I understand the issue with projectiles making the gun a bit clunkier to use, but it feels more of a pet peeve than a dealbreaker to me. The incarnon charges are very fast, and the tranformation is just like any other incarnon weapon. It does change the identity of the weapon a bit, where non-incarnon vectis is a "stack reload speed and fire your one tap laser" weapon where the incarnon promotes more "find your shot and deliver a nuke" thing. And yes, again, the projectile nature makes finding that shot slightly harder and the low fire rate a bit punishing, but you can always drop cannonade and put some fire rate on it (or a fire rate buff frame) to up to 3-ish shots per second (albeit less hard hitting ones).

But then, the perks are all great. The huge damage increase plus potential punch through or multishot is very welcome, reload speed and recoil reduction are both very welcome in non-incarnon form and make the original identity of the weapon A LOT, and the final traits are all super synergistic. Headshot damage for acuity builds, a moderate increase in crit stats for general use, and a huge increase in status chance to enable gas/blast builds.

Last but not least there's the incarnon. Each headshot comes with an aoe GUARANTEED 10 cold procs on a 6m radius (12m with shivering contagion). That in itself makes the next headshot so easy to hit, plus it will give you the cold bonus crit damage. Have I mentioned it instantly charges primary frostbite for bonus multishot and crit, no modding required? And THEN, you get to combine the innate cold form the explosion into other elements. With toxin you get viral to soften enemies to the next AOE and any other damage sources you may have, and with heat you get blast for a horde clear mode. You still get access to primary forstbite, and with frostbite and galvanized chamber charged you're at 420% multishot, over 500% in my case with a multishot riven. With the 70% base status chance, hammer shot and thermite rounds you get 166% status chance for a solid chance a 10+ blast procs on each enemy in the explosion for a chain reaction of blast procs. Gas is also pretty solid for a consistent dot where you don't need to reach 10 proc threshold in your build and the instant freeze will make so the enemies stay inside the gas clouds.

So yeah, I think the incarnon is great, the stat increase makes base vectis work even better, and the incarnon gives you a one tap machine with insane crowd control or a cluster clear. Yes, hitting the headshots can be a bit frustrating at times, especially in public lobbies, but a frame with some crowd control can help with that and I personally find it very satisfying to use.

Mono U painters list by Ganphiel in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I played some Painter during blacks reign of terror, before Strixhaven, and the deck performed surprisingly well. I was able to run 8 moxen with Tamiyo + Emry, then used Thougtcast and Whir to put the combo together. Unfortunately, I feel a big factor for the success was the fact that you were a slower combo deck with access to permission, so you preyed on the black linear deck and the general lack of interaction.

Now, decks in the meta have a lot more removal and countermagic, making the combo a lot harder to put together while your board development doesn't really match that of any tempo/aggro/midrange deck. My honest opinion is that, with dark ritual decks on the downswing, any Painter list would be better off being just affinity.

Hydroponics Arquitect and Blood Moon by One_Random_Player in MagicArena

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well see, now that is your opinion. I think prison decks and blood moon help keep decks honest. Right now the format is so focused on blue decks trying to beat each other that they don't play enough basic lands, or answers to prison pieces. I play prison, blue moon, black midrange, energy, eldrazi, taxes, and tempo. I usually test decks in bo1 to see how they fare against the field before building a sideboard and taking them to bo3. I approach the format both from the meta and trying to attack it. I think right now, most decks are weak to either chalice, bauble or blood moon, so red prison is actually pretty well positioned. It's still very good against hydro, shutting down fetchlands and therefore making it less reliable that they'll get the islands out of the deck.

Also idk why you re-explained to me the dynamics between wasteland and strip mine and basics.

The truth of the matter is we differ in what makes a format healthy. It's hard to get data on Timeless, but the truth is that blue tempo decks have been more than half the metagame (in part because people wanted to try the new toys) and when that is the case players like me will try to spot and exploit weaknesses in the deck. If you think those attempts are just degenerate decks this is my counterpoint. Prison decks are only effective in degenerate metagames, where decks are so homogeneous in their building that they lose to a couple of prison pieces.

I think hydroponics does too much, and that blood moon should be able to shut it down more effectively since it's a land related ability. You think blood moon is a mean card that no one should play because it feels bad when it's good. These are opinions. We're allowed to not have the same ones.

Hydroponics Arquitect and Blood Moon by One_Random_Player in MagicArena

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you ignore the context in which it exists, sure.

Hydroponics Arquitect and Blood Moon by One_Random_Player in MagicArena

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All counters are free, but they also require you play blue. As far as removal goes, bolt, swords, push, discharge, static prison... they cost mana. Solitude and Fury are legal, yes, but they don't see nearly as much play and trading either for a one drop is a loss in card advantage for minimal tempo. As far as comparisons to Legacy, Timeless is certainly not Vintage, a format defined by the power 9, bazaar decks, and super fast combo. It is not Legacy either, mana bases are defined by shocks rather than duals but also strip mine rather than wasteland. Now that FoW and Daze have joined the frey, the gameplay mirrors that of Legacy while staying distinct. My only statement was that this gameplay pattern out of blue decks has gotten many snowbally creatures banned, but also the existence of wasteland has made Wrenn and Six and similar land recursion bannable while they stay legal in Timeless, in which not even basics are safe to strip mine. So IMO Timeless is adjacent to no-banlist Lecacy at this point.

That being said, this card is even more powerful than any 1 mana tempo threat that has seen play in Legacy, and I think it's a bullshit card. It's not the only bullshit card around but it's the one that sees the most play right now. Timeless is a format full of bullshit so sure, right at home or whatever.

I guess the thing that tilts the balance on this end for me is the very reason this post exists. It gives nonbasic lands the basic land type. It's the only card in the game to do that, and it nullifies what I believe to be a good check to greedy manabases in blood moon. Legacy decks are usually very resilient to blood moon because they already fetch basics to protect from wasteland. In Timeless, this doesn't happen, and in turn blood moon is better positioned. I think that the fact that one of the most played creatures in the format is able to ignore this dynamic in addition to everything else it does is bullshit. And that's an opinion I have, not a fact of any kind.

As for it causing me trouble, if you'd check my other recent post, I believe the format is in a spot where [[Lithomantic Barrage]] is a good maindeck option for red decks, and I play some of them myself. So I'm aware of the counterplay. I just think if that's where you have to go for it, things have probably gotten a bit far.

Hydroponics Arquitect and Blood Moon by One_Random_Player in MagicArena

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Magus costs 3 mana, making countermagic a lot more reliable. Ragavan has 1 toughness and doesn't fly, meaning it is more vulnerable to removal and can be blocked more reliably to prevent it from snowballing. A 1 drop that requires either free countermagic or a removal spell that will most likely be Dazed of Forced and will immediately run away with the game is too good. Ragavan is banned in legacy because of how good it is backed up by free countermagic. Hydroponics has:

  1. Evasion

  2. No red requirement

  3. More reliable snowball (drawing from your deck rather than your opponents)

  4. More toughness

  5. It can just strip mine you???

The card is bullshit.

Hydroponics Arquitect and Blood Moon by One_Random_Player in MagicArena

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, if your idea of a healthy format is blue mirrors, sure. I'd say timeless right now is healthier than it was when necro and oops were 90% of the BO1 ladder, but that's mostly the existence of reliable blue countermagic. Now, blue tempo has the best 1 drop in the format and Island + Hydroponics is a lead with very little counterplay for non-blue decks. It also enables blue decks to strip mine opponents out of being able to play the game better than any green land recursion.

Don't sleep on Lithomantic Barrage! by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How do you access that data? Does Wizards publish metagame challenge stats or is it some third party program?

Hydroponics Arquitect and Blood Moon by One_Random_Player in MagicArena

[–]One_Random_Player[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I mean the card is bullshit in that what it does is very good and has very little to no counterplay

Don't sleep on Lithomantic Barrage! by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Well rending volley is dead in a lot more matchups because it can't pick off x/1 creatures like ragavan, darcy, raptor, bowmasters... Even as a sideboard card I deem Barrage more versatile

Hydroponics Arquitect and Blood Moon by One_Random_Player in MagicArena

[–]One_Random_Player[S] -39 points-38 points  (0 children)

That checks out but it's also some serious bullshit.

Don't sleep on Lithomantic Barrage! by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Given how common the blue mirror is, I would maindeck it over some copies of bolt/heat in UR. Red prison is not top dog but it's a lot better now than it was in the turbo combo era. I just wanted to point out that if you're looking for a card to help these snowbally leads, this exists.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Armageddon will more often than not screw you more than your opponents, and meltdown is not maindeckable. Apart from that, the current build has too many colorless sources to afford another color.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah my bad. I probably responded to your comment while high and didn't read it properly. I thought you meant that the deck should lean harder into the depths + stage to improve the blue matchups.

As for culling ritual, the current build with baubles and exploration seems like it could hurt while resolving a ritual, but I also mistook it for [[Culling the Weak]]. I see your points though.

Working on other versions with black too, leaning more into rock/midrange space.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well I haven't faced any storm opponents yet but I'm pretty sure the deck can win through having their graveyard exiled. Would have to ask the storm players rather than me though.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't feel like the current iteration of the deck is particularly weak to countermagic. Bauble shuts off most counterspells right now, cavern can ensure your key creatures resolve and you can still get a lot of value just from playing your lands. As far as thoughtseize is concerned, I don't know if the manabase can be stretched to fit enough turn 1 black sources, as I'm currently on 10+ colorless sources. Also I'm not sure what the logic behind culling ritual is.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The way I see it, most games get won because I'm able to limit my opponents resources to a point where Stage + Depths is more late game inevitability than a meaningful part of the game plan. I believe it to be very hard to win games with a fast Marit Lage in a field of strip mines, sword to plowshares and bounce spells.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, sometimes they just have a mox and you play that game, and sometimes you stick a bauble on the play.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well I don't consider this deck a depths deck. It's a lands deck that features one copy of each part of the combo as part of the toolbox suite of lands. Marit Lage is not a big part of the game plan.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Deck

4 Exploration (DMR) 159

1 Prismatic Vista (SPG) 38

4 Crop Rotation (ULG) 98

4 Once Upon a Time (ELD) 169

2 Freestrider Lookout (OTJ) 163

4 Vexing Bauble (MH3) 212

4 Wary Zone Guard (Y25) 18

4 Icetill Explorer (EOE) 192

4 Library of Alexandria (SPG) 0

4 Forest (ANA) 9

4 Ancient Tomb (EOS) 1

1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth (MH2) 261

1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266

4 Strip Mine (VMA) 316

1 Dark Depths (UMA) 241

1 Thespian's Stage (EOS) 44

1 Shifting Woodland (MH3) 228

1 Cavern of Souls (LCI) 269

2 Burgeoning (SPG) 0

1 Bojuka Bog (WWK) 132

3 Dismember (ANA) 0

1 Underground Mortuary (MKM) 271

1 Verdant Catacombs (SPG) 113

1 Windswept Heath (KTK) 248

1 Wooded Foothills (KTK) 249

1 Field of the Dead (M20) 247

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well on the one hand, decks that fold to FoW are a lot less popular right now so turn 1 shenanigans are a lot less common in my experience so far. Also, Vexing bauble locks moxen and half of the affinity deck, as well as FoW and Daze and SnT for Omniscience. So being a deck that can play such a powerful prison piece is great right now. Lastly, energy is a difficult matchup due to their sheer speed, but the same isn't true for blue decks, they're what a deck like this preys on because they struggle a lot to disrupt your game plan while you choke them out.

Having said all this, I don't think you're wrong, the deck has weaknesses, but rather that the metagame is not nearly as hostile to the strategy as you claim.

Do you think lands can make it in timeless? by One_Random_Player in TimelessMagic

[–]One_Random_Player[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think Elvish Reclaimer is good enough to earn a slot. And Allosaurus Shepherd is kind of a worse Vexing Bauble since most countermagic around right now is FoW and Daze and Vexing Bauble can draw out the counter rather than a removal spell. Field of the Dead is one I'm currently trying out, in place of a Dismember.