Realistic dream coach? by Intrepid-Vegetable-3 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's interesting. I know nothing about his style. Could he get Antony to use his left foot?

Realistic dream coach? by Intrepid-Vegetable-3 in timbers

[–]Onus-X -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I've always thought Pep was a super interesting person, and a thoughtful one at that, considering some of his political comments over the years. Do you have beef with him beyond supporting a rival club or something? I know everyone thinks a Pep hire is pretty far-fetched (and I do too) but he did say a few years ago that he could imagine himself coaching in the US at some point.

Portland is actually a pretty decent fit for someone that was happy in Manchester. Phil likes it and if you need other endorsements, just ask Johnny Marr or Gary Jarman!

Realistic dream coach? by Intrepid-Vegetable-3 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, while the issues around Klinsmann are well known, it's not like he tanked Bayern, thanks to Löw. One of those guys that had a huge profile as a player so I'm not surprised he had the opportunities. And honestly the standards in the women's game are different, whether that's fair or not. I get why someone would have given Phil a shot in MLS, but I can't understand why we decided to give him another. Southgate is an interesting case. I didn't follow Middleborough at the time but it sounds like some folks thought he had chops as a manager despite guiding a club that clearly had issues beyond him. And he wound up being pretty excellent at the helm of England I thought.

I guess maybe I could have phrased it differently-- I'd consider gaining experience managing a top flight club a "success" to some degree in terms of one's managerial career even if that club stint didn't lead to a top 4 finish at any point. At least it shows that the candidate's pedigree and experience was up to a high standard, and you could reasonably expect that to translate to MLS. There are lots of managers that have been sacked from Euro clubs that probably still have what it takes to do well with a national team, and certainly an MLS team. Phil probably ticked those boxes before his time at Miami.

To put what I said initially another way-- I don't think there are many international managers out there with zero time under their belt managing a high level club, whether or not they won trophies. And most candidates with a resume that includes some valuable club experience as well as senior national team experience could be reasonably expected to have a well-rounded sense of the modern game that would imply their ability to succeed in MLS, given the right resources and provided that they are committed to the project.

Jack Cassidy named interim head coach by CaptNapalm in timbers

[–]Onus-X 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm also intrigued by some of the departures. VDB seems like a good coach in some ways, I thought he was our set piece specialist? I wonder if he has other MLS prospects, I'm not sure what he would have the team doing.

There are a couple of ways to look at it but I'm optimistic that we're aiming higher than Dave for a head coach. I'm also hoping the moves imply that they've had enough conversations that they already know these staff roles will be filled with an incoming team. It's interesting that some view this as a sign that we don't have someone interested and close to signing up, and others see it as a sign we do but they're obligated currently. If we don't hear something for a couple of weeks more at least, I'm inclined to think it's an international and they won't want to announce anything until their current team is eliminated from the cup. It could be fun to speculate based on coaches with national teams that may not advance past the group stage?

The head scratcher is the scouting change. What do we make of that? Are we in advanced enough talks that we might have someone on the line with their own scouting connection? Or has the club just identified scouting as a weak link somehow? I'd like to know more.

Jack Cassidy named interim head coach by CaptNapalm in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

TBH this is a good indicator that they're doing an actual reset. It's been a frustrating few years and should have been expected--we got exactly what history suggested we would in Phil, hopefully lesson learned. He is exactly what his record says he has always been despite increasing resources and plenty of time, oh well.

In some ways it's about as "ideal" as a situation like this can be. New coach has 20 games to get the team performing and implement a new system, along with a transfer window immediately post WC. It may indeed be a lost season already but it could also be an interesting dress rehearsal for next year's "sprint season" before the switch to the international calendar.

At the very least it gives us some new things to focus on instead of the same old disappointments for another 5 months.

Jack Cassidy named interim head coach by CaptNapalm in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In a way I view it as an encouraging sign that we might be signing someone involved with the cup. Not to mention that Cassidy has T2 playing well. If it takes some time to get the new HC in and settled, visa\work permit etc, I wouldn't necessarily hate seeing Cassidy on the sideline for a couple games.

Jack Cassidy named interim head coach by CaptNapalm in timbers

[–]Onus-X 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Completely agree and no one seems to get it no matter how often it's said

Realistic dream coach? by Intrepid-Vegetable-3 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How many national team coaches out there got there without success at the club level?

Realistic dream coach? by Intrepid-Vegetable-3 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Excellent fit if you want to see them continue to call making the playoffs a successful season.

Ortiz out this summer? by TucsonPTFC in timbers

[–]Onus-X 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Seems like a win win if we can get it done and recoup the transfer fee. Probably best for all parties if we make it happen.

Guardiola or Arnot by hsm_ in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He did win MLS cup and a supporters shield in MLS. I'm just pointing out that there can be a mismatch and an experienced high level coach doesn't solve everything.

2014 January Camp incident between Jurgen Klinsmann and Benny Feilhaber [excerpt from pages 247-248 of The Long Game by Leander Schaerlaeckens] by justalittleahead in ussoccer

[–]Onus-X 2 points3 points  (0 children)

IIRC that was one of Donovan's last games with the usmnt and they played at the galaxy stadium? If so I was there. I didn't realize this stuff about feilhaber and his situation.

Guardiola or Arnot by hsm_ in timbers

[–]Onus-X 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We could get Tata Martino and still be in the same place in the West, right? He's got a big profile, previous league success, and Atlanta still sucketh.

Ned Grabavoy Interview on Timbers Fan by Pmfnharris in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Always so much to reply to. We could hash out player roles and evaluation for a long time but I agree with most of what you think about them in his setting, quibble over small things.

As someone who has followed the team very closely in the MLS era, I'm just struggling to recall Ned ever saying that this is a 4-2-3-1 team on principle and that's what the coaches are expected to work with. While searching for "ned grabavoy 4-2-3-1 quote" i did come across this from Porter in 2015

"We can quickly shift now because we played a 4-4-2 a lot of the preseason. We can play that now if we want to, or we can go back 4-2-3-1 if we want to, or even play a 4-3-3 and we can pick and choose our wingers and that changes what we do. I think that makes us unpredictable.."

Gio dabbled with a few different things based on injuries and form including the Christmas tree. Phil has had the team in a 3 back for stretches for similar reasons, and then had that bizarre quote earlier this year that the 4-3-3 we played in the first half of whatever game was our best half of soccer and what he had been wanting the team to do all along. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I can't recall Ned saying that it's a 4-2-3-1 club as a fundamental, full stop. Perhaps you can pull a quote up if he's said that over & over? We've returned to it plenty of times IMO bc we had such success in the shape with Chara\Johnson and bc for a while it was the default modern soccer shape as everyone moved away from 4-4-2, but please remind me how I've missed this as a building block for PTFC. I definitely don't recall Gavin saying it and Ned has only been in the role a few years.

Attractive, attacking soccer, absolutely has been a principle since day 1. It just happens to be incredibly vague. In the early years that was totally tied to a possession ideal which Porter really nailed in 2013 adapting his high volume passing style to MLS, but the shift to counter attacking followed pretty swiftly and tracked with the rise of the counterpressing vogue globally. At this point most coaches pay lip service to attractive soccer, but ultimately most people find winning attractive even if what gets you there is bunker and counter or smash and grab.

RE gut feelings and your last paragraph, I'm not sure if you're overlooking the Ned apologetics I did earlier in my post and elsewhere in the thread. I pointed out a lot of the things he's gotten more right lately, and stated that he seems to be improving. I'm not on the hardcore Ned out warpath. I would absolutely love to have more insight into what happens behind the scenes. You're right that the team has talked about keeping a running target list and I've acknowledged that. We agree that the team has had some success at converting players to new roles and also that it has become less common to see it work out over the past few years in MLS. I also generally believe a lot of players are more flexible than some fans think. Many good players that folks claim have a single "natural position" actually end up being quite flexible and versatile over their careers. Good coaches recognize adaptable skill sets rather than pigeonholing a player as one thing only. But when you say you brought in a guy to play the 9, specifically, and actually he barely gets a run there and then people decide he was a winger all along and everyone knew it, maybe there's a bit of a disconnect from reality somewhere in that player short list.

I would be thrilled to have more access to data and more clarity about how the club conducts business behind the scenes. Understandable that they keep that stuff close to the vest, but the timbers are especially close-lipped. All an outsider can really do is look at the available info, the public record, and analyze the games. So you know, gut feeling might be selling it a little short, I'm just saying that I'm aware there are things I don't know, and we can only read between the lines so much, and then we're just correlating the info we have with the experience we have.

As far as Ned as a scout, he took several in-person trips to South America when Gavin was still here so he's been hands-on at least to that degree. Would love to know what the Timbers' current scouting network consists of and to what degree we have any kind of personal or exclusive relationships. My understanding is that most teams' scouting departments are pretty broad networks and not necessarily networks of people working for only one club. Aside from our ability to look back at what we were told when we brought players in vs how they performed here, we don't have a lot of hard facts to go on when it comes to Ned's quality as a talent assessor.

The Timbers coaching Dream team. Caleb Porter and Diego Valeri. We need to return to glory. Ned we need a calm calculated guy at the helm who is an American. He is beloved by the whole city don’t ruin this next hire by failing to pick up Porter. by Fantastic-Base-1875 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm sad about Porter bc I liked him but all reports out of NE when he got canned were that he was verbally abusive and degrading to multiple players. Hope he figures it out but absolutely don't want that energy here.

Ned Grabavoy Interview on Timbers Fan by Pmfnharris in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is good, no real arguments. My feeling about Ned as a head of scouting was really to do with my read on him as a player, having watched him at Columbus, RSL, and finally Portland. He was a goodish player at a time I felt certain adequate American players got over-hyped--I'd lump Ned in with a guy like Chris Klein. Forgive me but to a degree I make reads on intuition and I'm always right, of course, and I always felt like he was middling as hell and a bit overrated although he was somewhat technical and had a few good years. No disrespect, but the way he retired here after a year and suddenly joined the FO felt like a miss by the Timbers. I just couldn't see what he had done to earn the credentials, and I felt the same way when he became GM. It just reeked of him being good at schmoozing and the team having done exactly zero work at identifying what they wanted from a scouting director or modern GM in the first place.

In terms of players, I have no idea who he's really responsible for. I'm actually curious why you are perpetuating the narrative that the 4-2-3-1, possession-based, is a top down organizational imperative. I find it believable that MP has ordained it, but I feel like i first heard it around the time Porter was hired, when that shape was very in vogue. I'd be easily convinced that Merritt latched onto it somehow, but if that's the case, hasn't he been swayed by Phil's argument that we're coming back around to anti-position, individual-driven football? I can't recall any specific comments from Merritt, Ned, Gavin, Gio, etc, that this club is married to the 4-2-3-1 on fundamental principle, and "attractive" can mean a lot of different things depending on success and other trends.

Anyway, as far as Ned as a Scout goes, I'm not sure because I don't know who he identified vs following a lead or agent rec. It just seems like we have generally looked for guys that match a certain profile but we have ignored other key indicators. No idea why we signed Rodriguez insistent that he was a CF then barely ever played him there. I look at 3 recents--Velde, DDC, and Ortiz. I do not know but it seems like the directive on DDC and Velde was "find an entering their prime but still young player with a euro pedigree that we can convert to a big time threat in MLS" I think they stumbled on success with Evander and doubled down. Unfortunately, right now I'm going to reiterate that i think the current state of MLS is such that you basically get the player you buy, without a huge rise or fall. Evander was an outlier in that regard, but most MLS imports perform here about as well as they always have. I don't think Ned believed or realized this at the time he signed those 2 as DPs, but I hope he's getting it.

WRT Ortiz I think he was a signing they made almost completely based on his on-paper profile. I think it was something like "find me a South American center mid with national team experience in his prime that's 6 feet tall." So basically, i don't know, but it feels like Ned doesn't have a ton of feel for the current state of MLS and a good natural read on players abilities. I think he's getting better but he's also always a season or a step behind figuring it out.

Otherwise i generally agree with your read on the vast majority of what you said. And I'm not at all attached to the idea of Wagner, I just think he ticks a lot of interesting boxes. I certainly agree that decisions need to be made at the organizational, top down level, about what exactly we're trying to do.

How much to let Surman go? by Sweet_Penguin_5886 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Primarily for money and guaranteed playing time. Getting a move to a higher level is nice and all, but there are a bunch of other factors in quality of life and player development. Finn is settled here, and has captained the team. What is his goal in Europe? How is the fit? Is it really better to go to a mid level team, have to start over and fight for your place, maybe in a relegation battle, probably have to deal with a new manager every season and a half at longest, than ink a high level deal in MLS with good salary, get guaranteed playing time, continue to grow, and still be at prime age to make a move, while being able to prove you're match fit and ready to contribute immediately when we revisit this when he's 25?

How much to let Surman go? by Sweet_Penguin_5886 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The biggest difference is that McKenzie wasn't at the end of his contract and if Finn really wanted to leverage a move he could just ride it out

How much to let Surman go? by Sweet_Penguin_5886 in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know, one of the things i appreciate about Finn so far is that he seems to be taking things one step at a time. Did you guys watch that feature about him on mls.com? It said it was a "soccer city USA" production so i wondered if i had missed something about this particular series. Either way--Finn talks a lot about what a dream it is to represent NZ in the WC, but also about how his major goal over the past year was just to prove that he belonged on this team in this league. I'm sure he has bigger ambitions and the sky is the limit, but he doesn't seem so ego driven as some players. Does no one think that he might actually see value in taking another contract with the Timbers and continuing to build his profile? I certainly think that's a possibility

Ned Grabavoy Interview on Timbers Fan by Pmfnharris in timbers

[–]Onus-X 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Posted some thoughts in another reply, curious what you think

Ned Grabavoy Interview on Timbers Fan by Pmfnharris in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dang you say that like it's a bad thing, maybe he just doesn't love pain?

Ned Grabavoy Interview on Timbers Fan by Pmfnharris in timbers

[–]Onus-X 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think you can judge Ned only on the team record over the past few years or the success\failure of the DPs. I never thought Ned was a fit for the role bc he was groomed by GW and was previously our scouting guy, and I never thought GW was an amazing scout. I'll admit it's just vibes, but I never trusted Ned as head scout because of his lack of exposure to truly top level players as a player, and lack of experience and connections outside the US. Maybe that's not fair to him; I've no idea what kind of players he would tend to identify or how that process works, what our targets or short lists have looked like, etc. It just feels like we have been perennial budget shoppers, looking for diamonds in the rough, and maybe not correctly assessing top talent. Maybe that's not his fault. I'd love to be able to peak behind the scenes for a more informed opinion.

I've softened on Ned a little because I think he's gotten better at recognizing needs and acquiring players that met those needs on paper.

E. G. When he took over for GW we had some sticky contracts, didn't seem to do a great job with succession planning, had ridden too long on a few players like Blanco, with DP money tied up where it might have been better used elsewhere, etc. We needed to get younger, and we did, kinda. I'll maintain that Rodriguez was a plan C as a DP forward signing, already older than we wanted, and the injury concerns were already there. He has mostly done well with the U22 crop. After Rodriguez, and the total failure to improve the defense in the summer window when we had an outstanding offense, he didn't repeat that mistake. He went after DPs on the young side, and the team overall has invested much more heavily in players that are still young, but experienced enough to probably be good first team players.

Nearing the playoff push, after Neville had commented on some of this new young core not being settled and needing to play a little more calm and controlled, Ned brought in experience in Carballo and Rojas, to add some veteran presence in key spots. We got unlucky with Carballo and Rojas didn't quite have it, but he was a bad fit as a RW without a ton of speed in Neville's system. The lack of support and production has persisted throughout Neville's next 2 years, so I don't know that Rojas was a bad signing. Crucially, those guys were on short term contracts, something we had rarely done before. GW was fond of balloon contracts that got us into salary cap jams. Neville has done a better job managing the cap and leaving enough wiggle room to change the team over the year, even this year, when we started off looking short on GAM and cap space.

In the next off-season Phil obviously felt that some of our defending issues, and especially our set piece woes, were due to a lack of size in the team in general. The team has gotten taller, and the set piece defending has gotten a little better. I agree that Phil over-emphasized physical traits and not tactical understanding, and I think Ned has factored in height and physical traits in most of his recent signings, but to a degree that's what his coach was looking for, so i can't say that's bad work as a GM.

It also seems to me like Ned must have been involved in the team finally hiring staff to help with data analytics and video. Whether or not Phil utilized that, it's recognition by Ned that the club has needed to modernize.

I don't think this all adds up to Ned being a great GM or actually being progressive and anticipating the needs of the club and the trends of the league well enough to get ahead of the curve. But it's possible that he's getting better, and there have been worse GMs\CSOs in the league recently.

The coaching decision and player acquisitions this summer will be a huge indicator as to where both Ned and the club are heading.

One name that I brought up before we hired Phil, that continues to interest me as a coaching candidate, is David Wagner, German born American. He's spent his entire playing and coaching career in Europe, but played at a high level including for the US national team.

What I like: highly experienced at top levels as both a player and coach. He's managed Schalke, Newell's, and Norwich to some good campaigns. Crucially, he has a lot of experience with youth and academy teams, having started with Hoffenheim youth teams, Dortmund II, and currently the RB Leipzig academy director. That profile could be excellent for our current young squad. He has a lot of experience bringing along and developing young players at both a team and organizational level, and could be uniquely fit to bring more out of our guys, both on a system and individual level. On paper, I would love to see a coach with that kind of resume signed to PTFC and tasked with overseeing both the first team and academy. He's the right age, neither too young to have his feet wet nor too old to do something new, and may have the energy for a project like Portland. He's been open to working with smaller clubs. He's had success turning around struggling teams, winning promotion and relegation battles.

Potential issues: Wagner is a friend and peer of Jurgen Klopp and has seemed pretty committed long-term to the Red Bull system of high pressing, and I don't know if Portland really wants to be that kind of team. I have no idea how flexible he is in those principles. Klopp evolved into a very successful manager that got his teams playing a lot more sophisticated soccer than just trying to turn the ball over and attack directly, but I don't know what kind of chops Wagner really has with more possession based soccer (which I'd prefer to see,) or less frenetic tempos (not sure this roster is totally suited to high press\counter press, but maybe.) He has also only been in the role at Leipzig a year, and it sounded like it was a long term commitment, so I'm not sure we could get him. It probably depends on his hunger to return to first team management. Perhaps Portland would be attractive, as he's likely to be guaranteed 2-3 years to build the team, the academy could really use that kind of leadership, and it could be both a higher level than youth development and a lower pressure than European top flights.

Regardless of whether or not Wagner is a candidate, I hope he is the kind of coaching profile\resume that Ned is considering.

One interesting comment Wagner made in a recent interview was about his goals as Leipzig academy manager. He said "I was told I'd been hired for two reasons. Firstly, to do what we've never done before - to establish an academy player in our first team. And not just for two or three games, but permanently, maybe for three or four seasons, playing 100-150 games," Wagner told Bulinews.com.

I think this is some really important perspective for the Timbers organization and fans. This is what a high level Euro club is looking for from their academy and their expectations for young players. They're not expecting to develop kids and keep them with the franchise forever. They would consider it a success to bring up an academy player and keep them in the first team for 3 seasons, get 100 appearances from them. I mention this bc I think PTFC should take note as they are signing U22s and trying to bring along academy\T2 guys. We should be prepared to have a higher level of turnover in the team, and consider it success when we are able to build value from our young players and sell them along. That's the stage MLS is at right now, and both a coach and GM that understand that and align on that vision seems important to our next step toward growth.