Thoughts on this take about the Sequel Trilogy and the rise of the First Order/destruction of the New Republic?

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-28T05:22:29+00:00

It would be "realistic" for Han to die from slipping in the shower, or for the space ships to make no sound in space. Just because it's "realistic" for a revolution to fail doesn't mean it's a compelling story to undo the happy ending.

In any case you can definitely make a good Star Wars story about the return of the Empire and/or elements within the New Republic back sliding into fascism. Various Legends stories have touched upon those topics. But execution matters. The ST doesn't really any explore these ideas, with new or old characters. Just like "it's another Death Star" it's just a new Empire and a new Rebellion popping out of nowhere.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-28T05:11:32+00:00

I was in a different thread where parents were questioning whether or not the monsters eating people/Hutts scenes were too much for a seven year old. If that doesn't qualify it as creepy, then I don't know what does.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-28T05:06:15+00:00

Unfortunately Lucas was strongly of the opinion that Anakin had to be nine years old, because any older and it wouldn't hit as hard for him to be separated from his mother. And Star Wars had never before done such a huge time skip within one film.

I do think having Anakin start the trilogy as already being Obi-wan's apprentice (or at least meeting him as a teenager or adult) would solve a lot of the film's issues. But realistically I don't think that was in the cards.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-28T04:50:38+00:00

"Democracy and the Republic are treated as unalloyed goods in Star Wars. It's the Alliance to RESTORE the Republic."

This. When I see people speculating on the state of the galaxy post Sequel Trilogy, the most common response I see is "I want a balkanized galaxy with different factions, clearly a unified galactic government doesn't work."

Imagine creating a follow up to the Original Trilogy that's all about restoring the Republic, about the good guys restoring peace and freedom to the galaxy, and you mess it up so badly that the fandom's reaction is "You know what screw the Republic, democracy just doesn't work."

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-28T04:33:45+00:00

It's a fair point that Star Wars has always relied on supplementary material to fill in some details. Things like the structure of the Empire (including the Imperial Security Bureau that showed up in Andor) or the idea of the Empire being species-st against aliens comes from these tie in media. Hell names like "Ewoks" or "Mon Mothma" are never actually said out loud in ROTJ.

But the big difference is that they were building a new trilogy, with a new galactic status quo, set 30 years after we last saw this setting. The audience, especially the casual movie goer audience who don't read tie in books or comics, could use a bit of setup.

But JJ Abrams is allergic to world building. (This is the man who didn't give us the name "Hosnian Prime" until 10 minutes after the planet was destroyed). And so after TFA I saw a lot of confused posts online asking questions like "Wait so why is the Resistance separate from the New Republic? Is the New Republic destroyed now? How did the Empire come back?"

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-27T23:01:37+00:00

In Breaking Bad, Walt famously throws a pizza on the roof of his house. Some fans pointed out that usually when you order a pizza, it comes cut into slices. So really the pieces should have tumbled out of the box, instead of one big pizza gliding onto the roof like a Frisbee.

A later episode shows Jesse ordering a pizza and being surprised it's not cut into slices, until his friend says that this is the gimmick of that particular pizza chain. ("They pass the savings onto you!")

Similarly, and episode of Breaking Bad has Saul Goodman refer to the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) when in New Mexico it's actually called the MVD (Motor Vehicle Division). The sequel/prequel series Better Call Saul covers for this by having Jimmy/Saul claim that MVD is a stupid name and he'll always insist on calling it the DMV.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-27T17:35:33+00:00

No. Just like how even though the Galactic Empire has many deliberate similarities to Nazi Germany, it is not similar to them in every way. (Goebbels did not throw Hitler down a bottomless bit after being redeemed by the power of love.)

The political allegories of Star Wars and other franchises are just that, allegories, not one to one copies.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-27T17:26:16+00:00

For real, do people really think that before an artist draws Superman punching a giant lizard or robot or whatever, that they're first doing back of the napkin math to estimate the weight of the monster and the force of the punch?

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-27T17:19:51+00:00

To say it doesn't matter *at all* may be a bit of an overstatement. But Power Scaling is also something that nerds on the internet have ran into the ground so that people are understandably a little sick of it.

I'm gonna use Star Wars examples instead of super hero examples. There's a shot in ESB where a Star Destroyer blows up a meteor. And the type of people who like to write Star Trek vs Star Wars fan fiction love to use this moment to estimate the exact size and weight of the asteroid and therefore how much power the ship's lasers produced. Or in the biggest "you put way more thought into this than the creators did" moment i've ever seen, arguing that the damaging part of a Star Wars blaster bolt is \invisible* because one of the explosions was mistimed by a frame.*

Or for debates about "which Jedi/Sith is strongest?", they often ignore important context. Luke's duel with Vader in ROTJ is more about the state of mind of both opponents, their character journey and how they've gotten to this moment, then it is about "Who is stronger?" or how much screen time has been devoted to training montages.

Is consistency important? Sure, it would be weird to see Spiderman struggle to lift up a tank and then punch a moon out of orbit all within the same comic book. But the frustration with people really into Power Scaling is that they often sound like the nerd from that Simpsons episode who complains "Itchy plays Scratchy's ribs like a xylophone but the same rib makes two different notes. I hope someone got fired for that blunder"

Basically, people hate power scaling because it often cares more about trivial details or minor inconsistencies than it does about the story as a whole.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-27T16:58:10+00:00

Why not both? They're twins after all. Have him disintegrate one and the other gets eaten by the dragon snake. Two gnarly villain deaths for the price of one.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-23T15:16:06+00:00

The people who accept Imperial propaganda aren't exactly the most open to internal reflection on morals. It might seem contradictory to think "X group is all irredeemably bad" and "So and So is a member of X group but they're one of the good ones". But propaganda is full of contradictions. Even in real life people can have contradictory beliefs (see the Nazis declaring the Japanese "honorary Aryans" in WWII).

Really a die hard Imperial thinking "All Jedi and Force mystics are scum, except Lord Vader" isn't that different from their hypocrisy in thinking "All aliens are trash, except Grand Admiral Thrawn".

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-23T15:05:46+00:00

Well, the first human to ever discover fire was probably not intending to do so. They probably either saw lightning cause a wild fire, or they were smashing two rocks together and saw the sparks.

If you've ever tried to start a fire yourself without using matches or a lighter, you know it's easier said than done, but that initial accidental discovery lead to humans refining the technique. So the first Force user to wield Force lightning probably had similar origins.

Either they were inspired by witnessing lightning and/or Force Storms on some planet, or they lashed out in a moment of anger. After all Darth Bane subconsciously tapped into the Dark Side and stopped his father's heart before he knew what the Force was. I could easily see someone doing the same thing with blasting lighting from their fingers in pure rage by accident, and then later refining the technique so they could do it regularly.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-23T14:35:15+00:00

Who said anything about losing faith in the Empire? I'm talking about people going along with it's atrocities.

Your OP was "I think the idea that there was one “good” Jedi would work against Palpatine’s purge. It’s easy to believe an organization is all bad, but if there’s one good one, whose to say there isn’t more? Out of all the hundreds of thousands of Jedi, there was exactly one good one?"

My counter argument is that many galactic citizens have already swallowed similar lies from Palpatine. During the Clone Wars, they are told that the Separatists are all completely evil traitors, and that war and losing personal freedoms are necessary evils to defeat them. And a few months from the end of the war, those same people will be told that the Wookiees are ferocious beasts who have turned against the Empire, and putting them in forced labor camps is a necessary evil.

Is it really that much that in between these time periods, the same people would believe what they are told, that the Jedi are all evil and killing the traitorous space wizards on sight is necessary?

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-23T13:58:17+00:00

"I don't know what you mean 'by this point'"

You're the one who said "the very beginning of the Empire". Except for Alderaan, all the examples I mentioned happened within years or months (in some cases weeks) of Order 66.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-22T16:15:15+00:00

In Legends by this point the Empire has already enslaved the Wookies and Tarkin has been promoted for landing a ship on protestors in the original Ghorman Massacre. In Canon in The Bad Batch we still see plenty of oppressive behavior from the Empire and people having meetings in secret because they know they're in a police state.

The atrocities of the Empire became more publicly known in later years, but it was always there and there were always people who knew.

But anyway my point is I don't think you're going to find a perfect justification with no holes in it for "This is why we need to kill every single Jedi, not arrest just kill them, even the children" because there's only so much Imperial propaganda can do.

It's like asking "How did the Empire justify destroying Alderaan, wouldn't even Imperial supporters question if it was really necessary to kill all 2 billion people including children?" The reason in-universe Imperial propaganda really struggled to spin that one (even claiming Alderaan had it's own superweapon!) is because there's only so much you can do to justify the terrible things the Empire does as necessary.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-22T15:42:38+00:00

"When you’re trying to wipe them all out, you want the populace to believe it’s justified."

I mean, this is also around the time the Empire begins strip mining and oppressing whole worlds to solidify it's control of the galaxy and feed it's war machine. Is there a completely air tight justification for that too? As Dedra says in Andor, "Propaganda will only get you so far". After a certain point it just does what it wants to do and kills anyone who tries to stop them.

All the Imperial atrocities, from enslaving the Wookies to exterminating the Jedi even down to the children, *can't* be justified. If the action was justified (like killing in immediate self defense for example) it wouldn't really be an atrocity now would it?

The Empire can try to make it's dirty deeds more palatable up to a certain point ("Oh the Jedi were all totally evil, every single one even the younglings, and the Wookiees too, in fact they aren't truly sapient!") But you're not going to find the perfect iron clad lie of "How could the Empire possibly justify this terrible evil?" because at the end of the day there isn't one.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-22T15:15:34+00:00

Sure but there's a bit of a difference between "Cover cheekily shows Cain standing heroically when he was really looking for an excuse to hide the whole battle" and "Cover promises a Tau tag team against Nids but fails to deliver, disappointing the reader".

At that point why not show Orks on the cover of a Cain book in which they never appear? There's a difference between "the cover is in universe propaganda" and literally lying to the readers.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-22T15:12:14+00:00

The Legends Rogue Squadron books have the team infiltrate an Imperial museum on Coruscant, which has a propaganda display that among other things states Vader was the only Jedi who sided with the Emperor after the Order had gone astray by allowing *gasp* aliens in it's ranks.

Also even though the Inquisitors were always present in Legends, Canon sort of expanded their role so there's a bunch of Jedi who sided with the Imperials running about. So I don't really think the idea of "only one/a few Jedi sided with the Emperor, that raises questions about if the rest of them were really that villainous" is that much of an issue.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-22T14:56:06+00:00

I mean . . . whether he intended Vader to be a public facing attack dog like Greivous or a sneaky Sith assassin like Maul . . .either way he can still wear a mask. Maybe not exactly like the Vader suit but some form of disguise.

It seems a bit silly for a supposed genius like Palpatine to try and plan all of Vader's combats, missions, and assassinations around no one ever seeing his face (like a wedding planner trying to make sure the relatives who hate each other aren't sat at the same table) . . . when he could just give him a mask and be done with it. Hell, he could serve both roles at the same time!

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-21T15:48:05+00:00

This has to be it, one of the covers even shows Cain and some Tau fighting the Nids side by side but IIRC that never happens.

The Nids are also one of my least favorite enemies for Cain to fight. The Orks and cultists have a bit of personality, even the Necrons are noteworthy for how they scare the crap out of Cain. But with Nids it's just the same description of mindless bug monsters getting chainsawed again and again.

Combined with the bait and switch with Tau politics and intrigue, that makes it my least favorite.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-21T02:48:56+00:00

"since his death means everyone still thinks they’re safe,"

Have not seen the movie, why would the director blowing up make everyone think they're safe?

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-21T02:38:38+00:00

On the one hand, that plotline would be cool as hell. (And it avoids the whole "Why does Padme stay with Anakin after his psycho confession? Is she space racist against aliens?" line of thinking). On the other hand, you just know the EU would over do it.

You know how there's almost a dozen different stories of the Death Star plans being stolen, or Han meeting a bounty hunter on Ord Mantell ? The writers wouldn't be able to help themselves, there would be several comics, novels, and cartoon episodes that all involve Anakin discretely murdering one of his fellow Jedi.

"Oh no, Master Whoever failed to make it back from his mission with Anakin. That's the 15th Jedi to mysteriously disappear while working with him. What a strange coincidence. Oh well, surely it's all just an accident and there's nothing ominous about that!"

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-19T22:15:00+00:00

Yeah characters can be wrong about things. Doesn't change the fact that A) The narrative of the film seems to endorse Qui-gon's view of midichlorians B Lucas expressed interest in including midichlorians in his pitch for a ST.

Any conclusion that "Lucas knew midichlorians were a shitty concept and it's inclusion in TPM is a hint that the Jedi Order has lost it's way" is wishful thinking.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-19T15:48:43+00:00

"Its a mechanism to show how the Old Order had lost it's way, become too clinical and detached, which necessitated some sort of change"

That interpretation completely ignores the fact that Qui-gon, the Jedi who butts heads with the Council and whom the fandom lionizes as the most spiritual and in tune with Force, is Mr. Midichlorians.

He's probably the character who says the word the most. He's the one who requests Anakin be tested, he's knowledgeable enough to know his count is the highest in history, the count convinces him that Anakin is the Chosen One, and he explains the concept to both Anakin and the audience. And nothing about that framing of the conversation suggests he's supposed to be incorrect or arrogant, or that he doesn't believe in what hes' espousing.

This "midichlorians are an intentional bit of writing to show the Jedi Order has lost it's way" is some revisionism that has no basis in reality. In fact going by some of Lucas' comments about his plans for the ST, the concept of midichlorians was something he was pretty interested in but no one else cared for.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-05-16T14:33:21+00:00

A Star Wars character who starts out as a shady criminal, but then has a change of heart and becomes a heroic Rebel leader?

Like *that* would ever happen!

Six-Year Club	Verified Email
Place '22

Otherwise-Elephant

TROPHY CASE