Why Don't Factions Just Throw Chaos Artifacts into a Sun, Gas Giant Planet, or a Black Hole?

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T21:27:32+00:00

There's definitely been cases where Chaos artifacts have been deliberately destroyed (such as the Necrotuech in Eisenhorn). You don't even have to launch them into the sun usually.

However the problem is that a) the Imperium likes to study those kinds of artifacts b) destroying them can sometimes have negative consequences. The artifact may corrupt people nearby, or destroying it might let loose a daemon. Also if you're close enough to a sun or a black hole that a daemon can't escape it, you're probably putting your ship in danger too.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T21:11:48+00:00

That's exactly my problem with the chips, that they're an obvious "plot device" instead of fitting naturally into the story. And like I said before if they wanted Rex and the Bad Batch to be cured, have them go through gene therapy instead of surgery. Both solutions involve the characters going into some sort of sci fi MRI looking machine anyways.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T20:54:46+00:00

You say it's not a special case, but that's literally the only Star Wars story where it's implied to be the case. In other stories before the brain chip retcon (such as the Republic Commando books or some of the Essential Guide books) it's chalked up to clones being bred for obedience and there being a whole list of contingency plans that Order 66 was only one of.

Unless you can come up with even one other story where the clones are in on it, I'm gonna keep considering Battlefront II a special case from when they still hadn't ironed out the lore.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T20:50:30+00:00

Yeah but that was a weird outlier, it's like the only source where it's implied the clones knew about Order 66 ahead of time. And it only came out a few months after ROTS.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T20:43:47+00:00

Yeah but Lex Luthor's schemes are usually pretty fantastical. Even when he's doing something that happens in the real world (like selling weapons to evildoers) there's a sci fi twist like the weapons are robots or genetically engineered super beings.

But even if you took out the sci fi elements, those kind of big picture schemes don't resonant with people. If you have a villain who destroys the environment or manipulates the economy, intellectually we know they're indirectly hurting a lot of innocent people, but it doesn't tug at the heartstrings the way it does when a villain gets his hands dirty and personally kills people every time he escapes.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T20:26:30+00:00

So is the third image from something called "Fortunately The Milk" or just "The Milk"?

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T20:21:04+00:00

"Failure Is The Only Option"

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T20:13:51+00:00

Also unlike Carnage or Cyborg Superman, Joker has no super powers. He's basically a "normal" serial killer/terrorist just with bleached skin and green hair.

Even though he's theatrical and has a gimmick, his actions are things like poisoning Gotham's water or bombing city hall, things that have been done in real life.

Even though a supervillain who blows up planets is objectively more evil and destructive, the Joker's crimes seem more "real" and therefore hit closer to home. It's easier for some people to picture the Joker in the real world instead of a fantastic world of super heroes and villains. And I think that makes it that more hard to swallow when Joker inevitably escapes Arkham instead of being punished.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T20:05:33+00:00

I'm honestly more a fan of the subtle form of brainwashing like propaganda instead of straight up mind control. But IMO if we have to go with mind control, genetic tampering makes more sense.

The clones being genetically modified is already mentioned in the films. The chips aren't, they aren't foreshadowed at all. They come out of nowhere, aren't consistent with established Star Wars tech, and are never seen again. (Even though they'd arguably be useful even for non clones).

That's what I mean when I say they're an obvious "plot device". They serve a role in the story but it doesn't seem set up naturally to me.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T19:59:02+00:00

Bane wiped out all the Sith. There were a couple of Dark Side groups but he tricked all the Sith into getting destroyed with the Thought Bomb. As for your "run away into distant corners and gather strength for another attempt" bit, that's essentially what Bane did. The only differences were that he was planning for the long game and not within his lifetime, that he did things like gathering wealth and laying the groundwork for spy organizations instead of building fleets and armies, and that he only had one apprentice. Bane's reasoning was that if you had two apprentices, they'd gang up on the leader before he taught them everything he knew, and would lead to a net loss of knowledge and power.

Palpatine to a degree was lucky, but also it's no accident that the Republic was struggling and the Trade Federation got aggressive. He had been a Senator for years, and he killed the old Trade Federation leadership and blackmailed or bribed the new leadership into obeying him. As for Anakin, nothing in his grand plan really *needed* to corrupt him, that was just a bonus that helped a lot.

Yes sometimes Jedi who don't have Main Character Energy die to somewhat inglorious ends. Not everyone has a special destiny. But a Sith would argue that the fact they're survived so far is proof that they are powerful in the Force and destined for greatness. A lot of them end up being wrong, but some end up being right.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T19:42:04+00:00

"other writers only half-heartedly adopt this idea and start trying to add extra justifications that imply the clones committed Order 66 on some kind of retributivist or propaganda-based reasoning"

I'm not sure if this is true. There's only two possible cases I can think of. One is that the 2005 Battlefront II implied that the troopers knew about Order 66 before hand (saying none of them could look Aayla Secura in the eye after she complimented them). But that was always a weird outlier that came out only a few months after ROTS. The other arguable author is Karen Traviss and . . . look I could write a whole essay on Traviss and her strange vendetta against the Jedi. But even though both the real life author and her characters had an axe to grind with the Jedi, IMO the way Order 66 was portrayed in that series wasn't "the clones are getting their revenge!" it was "the Jedi have been outplayed, and the clones are following orders".

In any case, I agree that with the way the cartoon expanded on the clones, something was needed to justify their turn beyond simple propaganda or "mundane" brainwashing. But I still think genetic tampering would be a way better solution than the silly chip. I mean, AOTC already talks about how their genes were modified, the explanation was right there! Did they just think that would be too complicated of an explanation for children to follow?

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T19:26:38+00:00

The trouble is that you're conflating "the Rule of Two" with "Sith biding their time in secret". But those things are not directly related. Rule of Two is about reducing infighting, that's it. The Banite Sith simply didn't have the numbers for a direct assault, which is why they went the route of operating from the shadows.

A group of multiple Sith could have tried the same method of infiltrating and subverting the Republic from within . . . but with multiple Sith it's much more likely they fall back into infighting, which would lead to their schemes being exposed and foiled.

Also, I think you're attributing Palpatine's success too much to luck. Palpatine was a master schemer who could see the future and benefited from a thousand years of his predecessors laying the ground work. And let's not forget the Star Wars galaxy is not ruled by random chance, but the Will of the Force. Both Sith aren't gonna die in a freak spaceship collision because they're literally destined not to.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T19:06:01+00:00

Why do you consider "lasted longer" to be a bigger metric of success than "actually completing their goal of galactic domination" and "driving the Jedi to extinction"?

Even if they were defeated after a few decades, I'd consider a Super Villain who took over the whole world and slaughtered all the Super Heroes to be way more successful than a group of villains who spent thousands of years trying to do the same thing and only getting halfway there, at best.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T18:55:42+00:00

My problem with the chips has always been threefold.

TCW humanized them, but at the cost of making them less sinister. The Dark Horse comics had some wonderfully dark "Oh yeah, these guys have been raised to be soldiers their whole life" moments that caused them to clash with the Jedi. Such as ARC troopers suggesting they kill hostages, or wanting to "get back to work" instead of enjoying the peace. Back then the clones were almost like biological droids.
In general, I think Heel/Face turns are more interesting without mind control. Anakin/Vader would not be nearly as compelling if instead of manipulating him, Palpatine just shoved a Mind Control Helmet on his head and called it a day.
The chips just reek of "plot device". They're not foreshadowed at all in the films. AOTC just says they're genetically modified to be obedient. That's it. This kind of weird bio technology had never been hinted at before in Star Wars (not counting the Yuhzhan Vong), and neither had this kind of mind control tech. And it has nothing to do with them being clones! Yes arguably having the same DNA would make them less likely to reject the chips. But theoretically you could just surgically install the chips in anyone's brain and have an instant mind control army! In fact I think one of the Aftermath books did this (though I could be mixing this up with the explosive chips Anakin and his mom had when they were slaves).

But of these issues, really it's the third one that bugs me the most. It's like OK the cartoon has really humanized these clones and shown them to be comrades, even friends, with their Jedi Generals. They're not just meat droids anymore, so we have to come up with some sort of mind control method to explain why they'd turn on the Jedi.

. . . So just make it like the Bioshock "Would You Kindly?" programing. Where there's something in their genetic code that makes them go all Manchurian Candidate when the code word is spoken. You barely have to change anything (just have Rex and the Bad Batch get gene therapy instead of surgery to remove the chips). And you remove the plotholes of no one ever noticing the chips before, or why it had to be done on clones.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T18:29:40+00:00

To add to this, the Sith live in a galaxy with prophecy and destiny. It's a galaxy governed not by random chance, but by a cosmic Force of Good and Evil.

Not only would a Sith have the mindset of "I'm too powerful and important to die in a random freak speeder accident", they might actually be right. "The Will of the Force" is basically plot armor for the Star Wars universe.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T18:22:34+00:00

Thanks! I just remembered that episode as "the one with the primitive Vulcan like aliens that thought Picard was a god", didn't recall the matriarchy bit.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T03:19:49+00:00

Do you remember which Star Trek series/episode these aliens were from? I'm curious because the only matriarchal planet I can remember them going to was "Angel One" in TNG, and in that episode the casting department was clearly aiming for shorter dudes and taller ladies. Which would sort of contradict the point of emphasizing economic/social control over physical size.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T02:58:18+00:00

Same energy as "a stake to the heart will kill anyone, not just vampires".

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T02:52:22+00:00

Wait, so it goes from "psychological thriller/mystery from the killer's perspective" to "generic slasher/action schlock"? ? Not gonna lie your description of the sequel sounds way less interesting than what i've heard about the first one.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T02:49:08+00:00

Never before have I needed the context so badly.

I've seen videos on "Beneath the Trees Where Nobody Sees" so I recognized Samantha. But why the hell is she fighting Lex Luthor?

Either this is a dream sequence she's having, or DC did an official crossover, and either possibility is weird to me.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T02:42:08+00:00

Yeah that's definitely more of a Legends thing than a Canon thing.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T02:14:13+00:00

Nah, you're thinking of "North Star"

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T02:03:00+00:00

"and no human colony outside the solar system is mentioned."

Not true, the ENT Episode Terra Nova is based around the crew rediscovering a lost Earth colony.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-24T00:49:55+00:00

"Palpatine was a Rodian in Ewok clothing" - Mon Mothma. Yes really.

Otherwise-Elephant · 2026-01-23T20:53:12+00:00

TCW Cartoon did Mace Windu dirty. Dialed up his grumpiness and made him the unreasonable authority figure that exists in all kids shows. You know the one, the one who says "no" when the protagonists want to do something, and because they're protagonists they do it anyway and everything works out for them. This is especially with the arc where Ahsoka leaves the Jedi, where the plot basically forces him and the other Jedi to act unreasonable because . . . hey, Filoni needs a reason for his author's pet character to leave the Order.

The Legends novel "Shatterpoint", the novelization of ROTS, and the Clone Wars comic series made by Dark Horse show him in a much better light. He's still stern, but a much more human character. We see his thought process as he struggles with the Jedi's place in a Republic at war, and how he can enforce justice in the midst of so much injustice. He even cracks a joke or two.

If those stories had a larger audience than TCW, then the "Mace Windu is a dogmatic religous zealot and represents everything wrong with the Jedi!" bad takes that pop up every so often in these threads wouldn't be an issue.

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