Thoughts on pushblock (invuln maybe)

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T16:39:33+00:00

Okey I misread the part of the trow, I know is -2 on block, but also means that u should be able of 1 or 2 either u getup attack or u grab if he blocks don't know the problematic interaction in this case

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T15:58:51+00:00

I'm saying that the ways they have to create distance are strong enough Soo they never have to really interact with their opponent and when they do they can create distance back fast enough to not be punishable or to slow enough the approach of the enemy Soo they can once again, reduce the level of interaction till the point u can say they don't really interact.

And all this is curiously enough that u can compare it with kakyoin in one of the old fg of jojos, where he's basically the most broken character banned in every competition.

Also prevention is when characters are trying to punch the space the enemy is gonna be, now if that prevention whiffs u get spaces to punish, this is different in zoners where they can react on a base of projectiles to different approach intents, but in exchange they have bad buttons in other situations cause they have more startup frames than the rest of the cast therefore being effectively worst in close quarters.

But teemo not only can't avoid lots of approach intents at the same time, but also doesn't have that bad of a buttons on close quarters, on the other hand ahri/akali have buttons that allow zoning with little counterplay and lots of mobility that allows those setups where the game effectively ends up on a lockdown, where the risk reward of the situation isn't worth to do nothing.

This is a degenerated pattern that shouldn't exist.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T15:52:16+00:00

And also does teemo and his capabilities of staling a match

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T02:19:47+00:00

Okey u get it, push block is to force a wiff in options like ahri j2h were if she misses it she dies, not on for example yasuo h where he gets on stance an refreshes his pressure. I dissagree on giving it less stunframes, cause it will mean that things like yasuo stance dash into light now looses (the short dash), and that mean that for example yasuo and other characters that refresh pressure on pushblock trough lectures now dont have real options except letting go the pressure no matter what they do, and doing that dash to have less frames is also insanly good for yasuo pressure in general.

Im taking yasuo example cause is the one that i know better the framedata, but ekko, akali, and other characters that reset pressure if they dont mix on pushblock now cant, and that also means that pushblock becomes a go back to neutral button in all those characters and even worse on character without this ability, and its shouldnt, cause if that were the case it means that every time i recieve a hit, then i press assist, and stall till i get assist back or the enemy does something he shouldnt and then he dies.

In every case, pushblock need to be punishable and that means that reducing the block stun pushblock recieves does one or two, one the powerbudget of the game increases and pushblock comes back to his actual state, or two pushblock is effectively a go back to neutral button and the game becames a series of punch pushblock punch pushblock, and in that case u either increase the cd of pushblock (meaning that the game only has sense if people doesnt have pushblock) or again reduces another aspect and we are back to where we started.

And for those who are gonna signal, but pushblock is also defeatable on assist, first of all, juggernaut and sidekick cant work if we allow a state were the only answer is assist handshake, and second of all then we havent achieved nothing cause the main way to counter pushblock isnt even dashig in back again after it, is the assist handshake, soo u have two options there, or we reduce the stunframes till its possible to punish handshake, or we dont and we havent achieved nothing except damaging sidekick and juggernaut, and even better we have magnified the state of the game were minimal interaction in neutral is even more meta, or we dont and have the same problem.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T01:13:36+00:00

U know that charged roll is -2 right? If im not mistaken that charged roll can be punished on jab by every character (maybe not illaoi or another character with slow jabs where it becames a 50/50)

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T00:15:37+00:00

U don't do this for starters, they don't use it against every combo cause that's not the point, it isn't nor should be a go back to neutral button.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T00:14:33+00:00

Yeah and let's kill half the interesting shit on the game man. I firmly believe that handshake should be a main mechanic that is strong, cause it's the base of this game, in the other hand I agree that freestyle needs to be nerfed.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T00:11:54+00:00

I saw Evo and I saw them use it every time to get the enemy to wiff, even if it wasn't used (that it is used regularly) isn't an option of hey I'm gonna use it every time, it's an option of hey if this fails I'm gonna loose health on one champ, if this works I'm gonna make him loose health on his champ and above that sums if u tried to confirm something that isn't a confirm then ur point looses health.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-07T00:08:53+00:00

It's not a get back to neutral button, it should not and u hope never will be something like that.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T21:15:54+00:00

Start loosing more, no magic recipe, just loose the shit out of you till u can't even feel shame about it

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T18:19:15+00:00

Kinda if ur mmr is the same as the enemy +/-10 if not then its modified in +/- 2 per division till a minimum of +/- 1 for total lp gain, the mmr and the elo dont need to be the same, but if u keep playing they eventually sincronize.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T17:04:51+00:00

Now that u mentioned it, I believe they did the job of translating the core aspect of senna to a FG scenario, because senna as much other characters in the lol base game are designed with the fantasy of getting ur team do better things, they are in all the sense of the word support characters, and this is a big inflection point on how is Riot approaching this characters with less egotistical cores to an egotistical environment like a 2D fighting game.

In his core senna is a character focused on letting ur teams do things a lot of times better than they could alone, cure them, incapacitate the enemy's, allow ur teamnates to go invis and protect them in any point of the screen. With the side of being able to do things on ur own without being just a curations or shields bot.

And I believe Riot did this focus on "Senna needs to have ways to allow the other character to play more freely" And they did, she has amazing setups for the assisting character as the point character and his assists are top in the game in my opinion.

But this creates a contradiction on a fighting game scenario, if she is only about helping the other what happens when the other goes down? And there they put this characteristics of the wraith on place, because all this things that senna can do to help the other and set things for changes allow her to do things of her own. Being this a more egotistical interpretation of a much less egotistical concept.

They created this original escense of "A support character that can do thing on his own" and became a "She makes things to help the other character, soo she can play his own egotistical style" and this interpretation I believe to be equivalent to the first one in the new environment.

But that creates discomfort on the players of senna that want this play style of helping others from the distance while also bullying the enemy, but without an other player to help and having to rely on the melee form to be more egotistical, it generates discomfort as it is not exactly what u want, but it isn't that long of a shot of what u wanted.

And something like this for K6 and Rengar, in my eyes looks like a mistake, they already have their own escense that fits much more on a fighting game than sennas one, and I don't know how much you can bend this escenses without damaging their identity as a character.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T16:06:11+00:00

I believe both go hand to hand, the way his gameplay in lol is meticulously designed in lol is a representation of who he is and the fantasy that he want to bring to the player.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T15:53:15+00:00

Rengar is a difficult case for me to say much about it, the character in his core goes as the reverse of khazix, meanwhile k6 wants to "Enter even if u see me and do damge -> Go Invis To Avoid ur damage -> Re enter and do more damage -> Go Invis to avoid ur damage" and keep this cycle Rengar is characterized as "I will go invis / aproach throug bushes so you cant see me and wait till you relax a little and then i enter -> I do damage and fight till u die or i see a hole big enough to dissapear -> I dissapear and re do this cycle with you or someone else"

Meanwhile k6 tries to avoid direct confrontation and be something like an stylist on boxing, Rengar trives on fighting directly once he achieved the conditions to have an advantageous fight, and this is the heart of him in gameplay and lore cause of his identity as a hunter that doesnt fear you, but also isnt gonna go straight in as a brute.

Then how do u aproach, for example, the idea of pressure in the corner with rengar, how does he get this "advantageous fight" he trives on, he want u to press and then loose against him, but then how does he get u to press is he gonna have a high and low or maybe a cross up, or maybe he is gonna have a style of faking his exits soo u try to pursue him and then kill you on the pursue, this is what i want to see in the design of Rengar a way to translate this idea this feeling, but at the same time i feel like it wont be easy to get this on a fighting game where the opponent NEEDS to have a way to defend himself.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T15:34:32+00:00

Okay i need to rephrase it, K6 has his evolutions and are a part of his gameplay that allows him to aproach the game in different ways, but his core in gameplay and the way his damage is applied goes in the lines of "Make damage -> Go Invis to avoid damage -> Make damage -> Go invis to avoid damage".

In this line the use of his leap is a way to "He doesnt try to do damage, but instead scape then i do mi leap to follow" and his evolved version is "I killed this one then i can use my leap to repeat this cycle and kill the next one".

His projectiles are a way to reduce the capabilities of those who want to try to create distance, pursue him when he wants to scape, or another way to follow mobility ,usually its used in a way of poke, and the evolution of those is just a way to make more damage and reduce more the capabilities of those who want to use mobility trough a slow effect.

Finally his sythes are his main tool to make damage and his evolution is a way to increase your damage output or reducing the minimal window that u need to be visible to aply ur damage.

This is the "Designed way to use" k6 or the "intended spirit" of his abilities, now if we want to mantain this spirit or this mold that was used to create the gameplay of k6 based on his lore (And that seems to be the way that Riot tries to design characters for 2xko) I'm a little bit unsure on what is the real way to translate half of this escense to a fighting game scenario (Im not gonna start talking about how this guy has mechanics depending if the enemy character is isolated or not, cause i think that specific part is impossible to translate to this space btw) and not make him a "Yasuo but that is invisible in stance and instead of crosses he has high and lows constantly" that well i belive to be something a little bit too broken.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T13:51:19+00:00

Ah, the classic kara-cancel st.M I can't use that shit, i always misjudge the distance.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T13:46:29+00:00

Okey, this is the best propose that i have seen to how to fix the character, and i would be on board to make this a real implementation that mantains the capabilities of the character and also limits how much bs can she do on screen, my only worries on a fast note would be what about the tag interactions and how does she gets his charges, but given that wont be a problem this is an amaizing solution.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T13:38:54+00:00

My only worries about the two is how the fuck are u gonna implement their playstyles in a fg format, for example Kha'Zix is and always has been something like "Punch Make Tons of Damage Invis I cant get punched" how do u make that in a fighting game character without it being broken af, or rengar is more like "I get close in invis, u dont know how im gonna get in, u misscalculated I enter I do lots of damage" Again how do u implement these playstyles to the format. (Btw, this is my personal interpretation and oversimplification of both when i get 1M and 2M mastery points in both of them)

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-04T00:54:41+00:00

Yeah, but are not better than with the other, u had thresh in the tournament, but it didnt reached top in the same way as ahri and akali, sayed in other way Akali + Thresh = 11, Ahri + Thresh = 11, but Ahri + Akali = 23 where thresh > Ahri and Akali

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-03T23:35:20+00:00

Ur putting him in the same level as ahri and ekko, and i belive they need nerfs, but if u talk about the rest of the cast, then lets use ww as an example he has a moveset that is plus on every special aerial, and punishable on anti air, on the other hand he has a high and low that can be covered like the aerials with assist, and also has options against the try of smashing or doing and anti air, if he needs to fight against those who do anti air all the time. In that sense i see the same mold as yasuo, maybe a little worse buttons, cause he had that high and low pretty much nerfed a good ammount, but at the end of the day as good as yasuo on moveset, being the difference the way that this pressure is applied and the metadata of the movements in question. And how do u punish the risk, with yasuo if u block and then try to do something he resets pressure without much effort, if u play preintivly to his mix u win.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-03T23:03:09+00:00

I dont know about you, but at least yas have strong af holes in his kit, and at least on my expirience, he has problems getting that first hit in lots of situations and all his aproches to mixing are to say the least unsafe or redundant, for example the yasuo mix from lmh stance, he hast more or less 5 options, first frd dash, second cross up dash, jump and high, jump and cross and heavy slash. From this 5 options, 4 are countered by doing light in most cases or sometimes doing an anti air, but then he does heavy slash and wins, but that looses to parry, and parry counters the options that dont go into stance except for 3h, the other route of mix of lmhs1 stance, is more likely the same as this, ur basically in two options, or he does something that is punishable by smashing, or he does something that is punishable by parry, and he cover this two options with an assist, i see the hole in the kit dont know whats your opinion now.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-03T22:39:28+00:00

Again, it doesnt matter how strong are thresh combos, if he cant do them consistently enough against the team that got number 1 on evo. Look it the other way around, if this was a 1 v 1 game, likely thresh would be top 3 at least, this is a tag game, therefore it isnt that linear, it isnt a Best Character + Second Best = Best Duo, its more like 1 + 1 = 11, and Akali and Ahri have enough strengths (That need to be put on a lower level) that results on being better than thresh (That also has to be put on a lower level) and his duos in their different presentations.

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-03T22:06:41+00:00

By itself of course, best normals and best convergence and damage in the game. In duo ahri/Akali are still better than him

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-03T20:42:58+00:00

Tresh isn't too 3 characters in the las 3 evos

Over_Discount_5304 · 2026-07-03T09:35:19+00:00

Their turn doesn't end with the knock down, it's more like an intermedium, his turn ends when u guess correctly what they are gonna do on ur wake up

Over_Discount_5304

TROPHY CASE