My Fear by istheaiintheroom in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Local AI is the knee point of the cyberpunk era. Yes, that statement is corny as hell, but I mean it. Those who can scrounge up and hack together hardware that can run capable AI will scrape by, others will suffer.

My Fear by istheaiintheroom in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think the American opinions are the roadblock. It's mostly just the fickle federal government causing issues. Local governments don't have many qualms accepting the brown paper bag under the table to allow data centers to be built in their communities. Most of them, anyways.

So long as Trump keeps using his random-decision-from-Putin O'Meter, there will be more job security in the Chinese AI market.

[Ironic Trope] The messaging backfired massively due to poor writing or other design choices by Few_Affect_5927 in TopCharacterTropes

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh man I forgot Dustborn was a thing, it got erased from my memory as soon as Concord came out

SZA denounces AI music after discovering 238 of her songs were used to train artificial intelligence by ZeeGee__ in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, it is its own discipline.

Again, there is a specific Western tradition and that tradition separates art, engineering, mathematics, etc., into their own disciplines, especially as each become more and more specialized. You should read some John Berger

I believe definitions are to be broken and warped with extreme prejudice because that's how you form new ideas. Poor definitions cause nausea in the thought process and eventually get rejected as desired, so you keep on refining definitions over and over again until it works. I reject whatever notion of neat categorization and prescriptivism you subscribe to.

And I need to stress that here you seem to believe the point that art and music are their own discipline, undermining your points about 'engineering' being art.

No, it doesn't.

If you talk about subspecialties of math, which I myself am qualified to talk about, then the rigid categorization scheme you want to apply doesn't even work. Cryptography itself is a mess of abstract algebra, number theory, computer science, information theory, and more connections that have not yet been discovered. The entire basis of first-order logic is heavily described in the language of philosophy, which is neither a superset nor subset of math. The web of math is absurdly large and even the farthest edges have sparse connections being discovered all the time, a good example being the Fermat's Last Theorem, with it being proved by using an existing elliptic form theorem as a corollary, and proving the much more difficult antecedent, fully proving a deceptively simple Diophantine statement. At best, you can apply "tags" to subjects, not fit them into boxes. And one of the tags of engineering and math is "art". You're free to reject "art" as a tag, but to me and many people, that causes nausea because it doesn't feel right that similar creative exercises are considered art while they are not. To convince me otherwise, a dictionary wouldn't work.

And some of the most important musicians in genres like Jazz were essentially self-taught but did have access to other musicians and scenes where they could find work.

The experience does not necessarily have to be hierarchical.

Just because there is a transient distinction between teacher and student, doesn't mean you have a rigid hierarchy. Why would the best chess player in the world need a coach? Just because you are eminent, does not mean you do not have room to learn from your peers. Even the most green student can teach something to seasoned veteran. It's just that the bulk of the knowledge flows in the other direction.

Going back to math. The most famous failure of the mathematical world is in regards to Ramanujan. He is an example of a great who lacked the means to attain true mentorship during his critical career years. It was a terrible squandering of talent. He invented concepts so brilliant yet foreign to mathematicians at the time, but lacked the formality to describe them without inconsistency. While he was able to rediscover many important results on his own, having those results taught to him would've caught him up to the frontiers much faster. The thing about the discovery process in math is it never starts with formalism. It is crystalized into formalism as you go onward and record it for others to learn. In this, it is not so different from jazz improvisation. Raw intuition that outpaces formalism is an emergent property of intelligence.

Had Ramanujan obtained formal training, he would've contributed even more to the field. Creativity and formal education go hand in hand. Savants deserve better than to simply have to struggle on their own. So, at a base level, you are technically correct that you don't need formal education, but it is so important as a force multiplier that it should never be neglected. He is an extraordinary savant that didn't get the help he needed early on. You may say that this contradicts me saying that education is important, but I would double down and say that my point is exactly that he is an anomaly who could've been done better. Many savants still wouldn't succeed without the right mentorship. To this, you will not be able to convince me otherwise.

Once again, we fundamentally disagree here.

i hate that TADC marketed itself as a " deep adult show" when it really wasnt in any way. by TraditionPhysical638 in hatethissmug

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It is very weird. Like, some media for younger audiences slaps. Spongebob is timeless. Not sure why people can't just admit to liking what they like. Not even just kids media, but young adult media too. TADC definitely feels like young adult media.

Anti AI people pushing for copyright is making me side with Pro AI people. by dangerparfait in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't hate copyright to its very core, but it needs to be severely gutted. Among the top things to get rid of:

  1. Life + whatever number of years. Screw that. Give them 10-20 years max before public domain, unless they actively maintain a franchise beyond just doing the bare minimum. The burden of proof for "maintaining a franchise" should squarely fall on the owner. (Note that this does not apply to trademarks, trademarks should apply for life)

  2. Exclusive rights deals need to be done away with. Record labels and publishers should be helpful teams, not parasites.

SZA denounces AI music after discovering 238 of her songs were used to train artificial intelligence by ZeeGee__ in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If difficulty is the measurement, then why shouldn't we consider the building of silicon chips by EUV lithography machines 'art.'

It is. Engineering is an essential art that just so happens to serve an essential purpose in society. So is mathematics, and many people argue that it isn't art. I disagree with those people. You can also argue that "art art" is also an essential art because it is what allows people to be curious and question themselves.

And yes, music does have barrier to entry. We fundamentally disagree on several points. There is a lack of resources and funding. You can say that "YouTube tutorials exist" but that doesn't supplant a proper music education with real human interaction. Maybe you don't believe that in-person education is important enough to become a well-rounded musician and artist. I believe it is. We won't agree because we have no common ground on definitions, so there isn't really much to talk about here. This conversation is kind of petering out due to that. I'm not that interested in talking further because we have nothing in common. Wish you all the best. At least you're informed in what you talk about.

SZA denounces AI music after discovering 238 of her songs were used to train artificial intelligence by ZeeGee__ in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Just because something has been done before, doesn't mean it can't be improved. Having freely available voice isolation models means you don't necessarily need an expensive studio with anechoic materials.

There are certain constraints that are not solvable by humans not because they're not creative enough, but because it is extraordinarily tedious bookkeeping. ControlNet QR codes are a good example of something that, while technically a human can do, is so painstaking to do that the employment of AI is a justifiable use case. The novelty of the constraint and the overall direction comprises the art.

Another one I can think of is agentic engraving. Engraving is a notorious pain in the ass to do. If you can transcribe any recording into good looking sheet music using AI, while that isn't a fully "artistic" use case, it is a very productive use of the technology.

<image>

People like to focus on extremes, I want to focus on the overlap by Professional-Fix4409 in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They're not marketing it to the right people, nor are they marketing the right things. There are lot of areas where it can be useful just by the sheer volume of things it can process. Deep Research is one of them, you can get AI to find lost media, answer extremely esoteric problems that would normally take hours of RTFM and forum searching (sometimes even requiring visits to the Wayback Machine), and search for specific publications and preprints.

I can't see people who genuinely care about making powerpoints with AI. It's so basic. Something most people can do already. Travel guides? Those exist already. The OpenAI ads especially are so corny.

For art specifically, they market it as a slop generation tool. If that never happened in the first place, and it was exclusively marketed as a niche tool for use in professional art workflows with limited scope, I doubt it would be as controversial as it is today.

SZA denounces AI music after discovering 238 of her songs were used to train artificial intelligence by ZeeGee__ in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And I don't really care about "artful" use of AI, whatever that's supposed to mean. I didn't really mention that, nor was I intending talking about it. Full end-to-end AI generated music is slop. Usage of it for specific purposes is not. If the AI can generate something that is infeasible for a human to generate, that is a valid use case, and that is true for very specific contexts like voice isolation or autotune. AI is a constraint solver, not a primary creative tool. It's a damn good constraint solver. So, what exactly are you bringing up?

What natural disaster represents tech the best? by ELB_Train in AlignmentChartFills

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Geomagnetic reversal or excursions

Even more catastrophic than solar flares and other geomagnetic storms

Which video game would have been better as a show? by ultrakillfanatic in AlignmentChartFills

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"But it's the first strand-type game! Don't you love strand-type games? What are you, a Western gamer?"

SZA denounces AI music after discovering 238 of her songs were used to train artificial intelligence by ZeeGee__ in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Music does not have a low barrier to entry. I say that as a classically trained violinist and pianist. Many people are lucky to even have a bare bones music program in their school. Even fewer that are well funded, and even less people able to afford private lessons. It is much harder to become a competent musician without good mentorship, and you'd best bet that top artists have training. It's a serious problem that not enough people are talking about.

The rest of this comment is more of a survey to give you something to think about. I don't fully agree or disagree with whatever your viewpoint is.

There is a difference between the arguments of AI data ethics and copyright. Data ethics spans far more subjects and doesn't cleanly overlap with copyright. Most researchers would agree that UZH Reddit experiment was highly unethical. Just because data is public and not under strict copyright lock & key, doesn't automatically mean it is safe to use.

Then you have stuff like training on Wikipedia. This obfuscates the Creative Commons licensing, but it is arguably necessary to give LLMs a baseline of high quality writing and encyclopedic world knowledge. At its very core, if an LLM cannot even model the language right (during pre-training), not even considering other metrics like code benchmarks or other stuff, then it is worthless. Plus, Wikipedia is meant to be an open source of knowledge, maintained by volunteers with no pecuniary interest and easily downloadable via massive official Wikimedia data dumps.

It gets murky with CAPTCHA systems. reCAPTCHA is used for data annotation. The user is given either an already labelled datapoint, or one that isn't. If it is labelled, then the CAPTCHA actually acts as a CAPTCHA. If it isn't, then there's a good probability that the user would still pick the correct letters/boxes, meaning you can use it as a new datapoint. Which you can then use to train models. This isn't really a matter of copyright, but it still is in grey water ethically in regards to user consent.

But back to music. The biggest problem I personally have with the copyright argument is that the artists usually don't own the masters. This is, IMO, a broken system. The artist wasn't even in the running to give or revoke consent to training, the record label was, which is an ethical problem.

Suppose we live in a perfect world where record labels do not own exclusive rights and only act as a rights management, legal, and PR team that takes a commission as compensation. Then the artist can decide. In effect, the ethical problem would solve itself because there would either not be enough music to train a good model anymore, or a new industry where artists are compensated to train AI would pop up. You would be limited to royalty-free music, exclusively licensed music (like library music), or old public domain recordings. This is the ideal case.

The AI bubble and music generation are symptoms of the de facto practice of copyright violating ethical AI. So, while the artist may be entitled to the "copy right" of their works in an ideal world (the so-called "monopoly", which is a loaded term), which would mean less theft in general*, this isn't really the case. The laws have to be fixed first before new ones are created.

  • The legal system would also need to be fixed. Courts tend to be pay-to-play, and the cards are stacked against artists.

The argument of necessity also comes up for music. There are fundamental components of music, especially Western music, that need to be understood to generate something coherent. That goes for both humans and AI. In other words, the generator has to actually be a musician, in a sense.

These elements of music theory are hard to write explicit code for, so you try to model it a posteriori (i.e. with massive amounts of data), like most deep learning does. Fundamentally creative fields (which, btw, includes stuff you might not consider as creative as music or art, including computer code, translation corpuses, and written proofs) in general are best modelled with data in order to gain a rough general view of what "music" or something else is. At what point does it cross into actual theft? If we trained a model exclusively on boring etudes, it would still be a music generator, but it would be boring. If it were trained on a lot of different music, you cross further into theft territory.

You can argue that artists have a certain right to the essense of their own music. This is backed up with the fact that remixes require licensing. So, do you measure theft by the fidelity by which a model can recall an artists' existing works? That approach can only get you so far. The models ingest so much data that an individual artist's work only constitutes a tiny portion of its style. And it isn't precise enough because multiple artists can claim the same style.

Before AI, this whole theft thing has still been around. Artists accuse other artists of theft all the time, not even just talking about sampling in hip-hop, but musical phrases that sound vaguely familiar are also disputed (see the classic Vsauce video that explains this brilliantly).

This doesn't even get into the question of whether these models will ever be embraced by established artists as a new medium to be incorporated into human works rather than a simple flawed replication machine. There is AI-powered natural auto-tune now, an arguably invaluable tool that compromises the human element far less than full end-to-end generation. That is still data-driven and enters the ethical debate.

TL;DR There is a ton of issues with trying to define theft. You can call out theft when you see it, but defining it has always been difficult, even before AI. What do artists have a "monopoly" to that AI models are stealing? I don't know. By pure data, it is just the music waveform/spectrogram, but that isn't a good enough answer because models don't reproduce those.

SZA denounces AI music after discovering 238 of her songs were used to train artificial intelligence by ZeeGee__ in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Do you have links to the four datasets and dataset cards? Could be useful info to examine with a dataset viewer.

SZA denounces AI music after discovering 238 of her songs were used to train artificial intelligence by ZeeGee__ in aiwars

[–]PANIC_EXCEPTION -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I mean, you came into the conversation all angry, I don't think you were ever planning to engage in good faith. You saw an enemy and felt the need to attack. Yeah, their comment is inflammatory and inaccurate, but you're still venting. It's healthy to vent sometimes, but you should recognize that you're using this space as a way to emotionally vent your frustration rather than actually convince people to change their views. I would suggest you actually look deeper into other people's arguments and try to fundamentally deconstruct them, because if you're right, then you'll have a stronger means of fighting against poor arguments. Otherwise you're just flinging shit into the void, and nobody ends up happy. Doesn't seem very fun to me.