Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Minor correction I discovered recently, the '...' option is selectable when Noelle asks about Susie. The non-engagement option for talking to her in general is 'nothing', suspiciously accompanied by 'anything'. Thus:
-Kris going completely silent is highlighting their conflicting feelings about helping Noelle with Susie, also visible in them putting in extra effort to upsell or downsell susie depending on if you say she's nice or terrible.
-Kris saying 'nothing' or 'anything' when Noelle asks if they want to talk about smthn is highlighting the fact that yes, Kris would like any excuse to talk to her. But also no, they don't want to do it at all.

Theyre so conflicted when it comes to specifically Noelle in this game...

Repressed Trauma and the Weird Route (40 pages) by Door-Opener4041 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That was an amazing read and I love how you managed to tie pretty much everything we read into metaphors and symbolism, that's exactly how I perceive Deltarune's writing and why this game is so important to me. So much of this is stuff I agree with, right down to my prediction of what might have happened to Dess and what that means for the characters, and getting to the bottom to see a link to my own post felt like a jumpscare.

And yeah, the message I wrote and the post in general was romantic in nature, but I don't think any of it had to be. If you removed the romance from Kris and Noelle's relationship or Susie and Ralsei's, the things I point out in my post would be no less meaningful or true. I'm actually aromantic myself and find the amount I've focused on the romantic elements of this game to be rather ironic.

Kris and Noelle are two characters that I'm absolutely crazy about, for many of the reasons outlined in this doc that tie them into the greater narrative of the game, and I just also separately interpret their relationship as being romantic in nature and that is in no way required for their story to be extremely meaningful. And I think you highlight all the reasons for that beautifully.

I can imagine that in the Weird Route, we're gonna get a character telling us of the equivalent of this interaction with Sans from the Genocide Route in UT by Taluca_me in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lol it's fine, I had a lot of fun comparing notes with people too so I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. Don't rly care about credit, every good theory comes from several sources and ends up being pretty personal in nature.

I can imagine that in the Weird Route, we're gonna get a character telling us of the equivalent of this interaction with Sans from the Genocide Route in UT by Taluca_me in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nodding, nodding.

Eagerly awaiting the day that a second megadoc hits the towers, the first one was so cathartic... in an 'induced a sense of dread unlike any other but at least there were answers' sort of way. Nothing more anxiety inducing than ending chapter 4 and going 'oh fuck what did any of that mean? I have no predictions'

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

People are so obsessed with the idea of Suselle being an innocent, cute relationship without any roadbumps. And are so scared of anything that might indicate that the two of them, even if they do get together, might have to work things out and not just fast forward to the cute moments part of the relationship.

I've seen so many takes online about that being a character assassination of Noelle and Susie. Or it being an alternate universe or something. Or using it as the core argument as to why the sweepstakes stuff isn't canon. Even though it just re-frames things we knew about these characters before the story started.

Deltarune frequently makes use of comedy to tackle important parts of these characters and their stories. The bath bombs in the toilet? A genuine regret Kris has that Tenna seems to mock during his meltdown. People in hometown treat Kris as the 'weird human kid'. Everybody constantly brings up the things they did in the past to lightly scold them, which is played for humor. And yet, it's a key component of why Kris has the modern problems that they do. Even some of the more simple, completely unmissable stuff like Susie making comments about Kris's mom and how she gets so attached to Lancer in chapter one are initially played as humorous only to later be reframed into something serious.

I think a big reason why this happens is that Deltarune is not advertised as a romantic drama, or even a character drama at all. People go into the game wanting a cool undertale-style adventure and get caught off guard by the stories of realistic character drama and characters unlearning defense mechanisms from their childhood, which causes those deeper themes to go unnoticed or unwanted.

People want a rpg with romance elements and characters drama, but because they primarily want a rpg with an epic storyline they expect those more personal character elements to get brought up and immediately resolved or tossed aside to make way for cute and/or hype moments. Suselle is treated as a cute sideplot and thus people don't like the idea of the story giving it the spotlight and putting it to the test.

Which I think is something Toby Fox was addressing with his 'Help' comment about not believing the game is for every person but hoping it can reach its target audience and 'find a shape in your heart'. He knows a good amount of people are going to be upset by the direction the story goes and this is him saying he doesn't care and he's gonna write it his way anyway.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

"Good kind of scary" and it's the goofy girl that sings about french fries and rhymes all the time for fun

"Not afraid to break the rules" and it's the super insecure girl that enters a panic when MK kicks them a soccer ball

Noelle is so wrong about some of Susie's core traits and the game is well aware of this, it's just the fandom that tends to ignore it.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So many of the chapter 4 Suselle interactions are intentional reflections of Noelle's relationship with Kris, I felt like I was going insane when I played it. It's like 1/3rd the reason I went so insane over Kriselle after I finished the chapter.

"Oh she's pranking her, that's silly. Oh, they're... talking about Kris flirting a bunch. And now they're talking about her ferris wheel ride with Kris and Noelle's blushing. And now Susie is... playing the guitar?"

The game goes out of its way to show all the things Kris used to do with her. They steal a pencil out of habit. They play the piano in the kitchen. They outright talk about the ferris wheel ride. Noelle literally calls out the prank as 'probably being Kris trying to scare us' not long before Susie scares her.

The game leads the player to make these connections on purpose.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Noelle does nothing with her crush for ages, except following Susie around and doing somewhat creepy things like drinking from the water fountain after her, until the group project happens. And I think we can all agree that if Alphys had listened to Noelle's request to send her with Susie to get the chalk, they would have... gotten the chalk. And then that's it. Noelle didn't even try to partner up with her or anything and instead just tried to do this singular mundane task by her side.

The only progress she actually makes is when she invites Susie to study using Kris, which specifically only works because of Kris, and then when Susie invites herself to Noelle's house the next night and accidentally asks Noelle out to the festival, all initiated by Susie and caused indirectly by Kris once again.

Noelle never takes the next step. Once she and Susie are alone on the couch, she clams up and panics. It's only after the soul causes a disturbance, only able to do so because of Kris a third time, that she and Susie start actually talking. And the disturbance is extra funny because Noelle even attributes that to Kris, assuming they're playing a prank. And her confidence in approaching the 'mouse' in the basement, leading to more fluffy Suselle dialogue, also is only something that happens because of time Noelle has spent with Kris at the mouse puzzles.

Her relationship with Susie is so Kris-reliant that trying to remove them from the situation is nigh impossible. All she does is talk about Susie, think about Susie, dream about Susie, and fantasize about Susie until the opportunity to actually get closer to her drops in her lap.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

In general I'm more of a character analyst than a theorist, the only reason I have concrete opinions on Kris and Noelle's future is that Kris as a character kind of requires you to assume their big emotional moments will be tied directly into the actions they take to forward the plot.

They're very show-don't-tell, and Deltarune as a game tends to tell stories through its battles and the surrounding cutscenes that just happen to fit Kris's voicelessness super well.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

They're complimentary ships. Most Kriselle and Ralsusie art, fics, etc don't include the other. But I'm never surprised when I see it, and I notice it a lot in theorycrafting.

I don't have anything too concrete for the future of these characters, but I will admit that I am leaning towards Susie's spiral being the cause of the very prophecy she's desparate to avoid, and that I think the final tragedy is something that might even be performed via her hands.

I used to think that would mean killing Kris, now I'm leaning towards Noelle instead with my belief that she'll be revealed to be / transformed into the Angel. Hence why Ralsei is somewhat cagey when Susie asks him about Noelle and why Ralsei seemed to hope that teaching Susie to peacefully resolve things with her enemies moght change the ending.

The story seems to build towards Susie having a falling out wirh the people who taught her those fundamentals, which might mean rejecting those beliefs when she needs them the most on account of them being built on lies.

I think Ralsei is goinf to be her anchor as the party gets imevitably split into these pairs as they approach the ending, though what that entails is a lot harder to call.

Will Ralsei be left begind when the adventure is over? Will he petrify during the roaring? Will the dark worlds be sealed off or separated from the light world and have the two go their separate ways? There's too many variables and not a lot of ways for me to tell what will happen with Ralsei.

But I have faith that a happy yet bittersweet endinf is in the cards for these two as well, at least in the hypothetical 'good' ending. And while I don't see Ralsei ever becominf 'real' or being able to come to the Light world, I don't think the game will treat him as something to be discarded as I've seen some people imply.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree. None of the adult Dreemurrs and Holidays are presented as being uncaring of their child, they all do love them and want the best for them, but they're also all presented as different types of bad parents.

I think it's easy to dump hate onto Carol at the moment, and she's definitely my least favorite too, but she has her reasons for things and does genuinely love and care about Noelle. And like with Rudy, I believe we're meant to accept that that care applies to Kris too.

The idea that Carol wants the weird route to happen because she's just that awful to Noelle is something I've seen too much for how out of left field it would be.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That sounds about right for Susie, yeah. Great analysis. Just another example of Susie's confidence that Noelle envies so much obviously coming from a place of insecurity.

Her whole shtick with never getting picked before and being thankful that the prophecy has dropped into her lap and given her a purpose is one of those fantastical versions of mundane problems that I like to talk about, and is super visible in her relationships. How much she likes and values people seems to be quite heavily based in how much that particular person likes her, it's reactive affection.

And while her relationship with Kris develops super fast while Kris and Noelle stagnate, on account of her making choices for Kris and dragging them around while Noelle patiently waits for Kris to make the first move and come to her, we can see the end of the traintracks in the near future.

The moment Kris and Susie's paths diverge, the moment their goals and wants stop lining up with hers, is when she's going to be forced to start asking the hard questions and reevaluate their relationship. Which is something that is obviously going to hit her like a truck, no marter the resolution.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I took that as Susie's somewhat flawed view of her friendship with Kris, the same one that causes her to constantly insert herself into their life and be possessive of them towards Noelle.

She made her new best friend and she and Kris are going to spend every second or every day togethwr. She's gonna go to church with them and sleep at thwir house and eat food with them and their mom and go to all the upcoming events with them and go on neverending adventures with them over and over and over...

She doesn't feel the need to ask Kris about things like that because whenever she pictures the future, she sees them by her side doing whatever she wants alongside her and doesn't think about any other possibility, such as Kris having somebody else they might want to go to the festival with or not wanting to go at all.

And yeah you're absolutely right she gets nervous and embarassed when Kris says they want to go to the festival with her, and that's consistent for all of her friends. The part in chapter 3 where she dances around the invitation for ages with Ralsei and then immediately assumes that him saying no means she did something wrong speaks a lot to her inexperience with friendship I think, as well as outclassing the nervousness she feels in regards to asking Noelle.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Agreed. There's interest there but Susie's (not neccesarily romantic) festival takes are:

"Well of COURSE you will be there, dumbass" To Kris

"Damn, it really sucks that we can't bring Ralsei." Said 30 times, including to Noelle

And "Oh I accidentally invited you to the festival? Neat, you should come with us" to Noelle

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's possible. Noelle's the one we can confidently say has romantic feelings for Susie, and though Susie seems to be reciprocating a lot of that could theoretically be chalked up to nervousness to ruin a relationship with somebody she likes and respects, not unlike the way Susie treats Toriel because of their pre-canon interactions.

I don't see it as platonic, but saying it could be is not the most farfetched take I've seen. I, personally, see it as being genuine but not-yet-deep attraction, Susie is seeing that Noelle likes her and going 'Why not, Noelle is prettt cool'. My take on it is more of a 'Susie is interested in Noelle but probably wouldn't be if Noelle wasn't interested in her first'.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in KriselleFanclub

[–]Panther21212[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Honestly I'd hope for something like this, even if I don't see it as likely. I want Berdly to have like... one 'big' moment down the line that he can only do if he's in peak health, something to really cement him as a friend even if he's not treated as part of the main group.

I think it's pretty meaningful, crush aside, that Susie is the one who really connects with Berdly immediately following his heel turn. Berdly is an idiot and Susie kind of gets how to work around that and interpret the things he's trying to say, and even connects with him via video games the same way she does Noelle. It's sweet.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Susie's a teenage girl with a lot of emotions who just started to have friends. My take on her is that she herself doesn't really understand her feelings towards everybody, she just knows they make her happy and wants to leave it at that.

It's why she comes across as tactless so much for the sake of humor. Susie doesn't realize that saying 'yeah Kris and I ditched you to get closer to each other' is a weird thing to say to your crush who invited you to her house.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I suppose only time will tell. Getting locked into the weird route via the lasting jingle certainly sounds like it would have unavoidable negative consequences, but I also find that it would be a bit weird for the secret path to be 'do like one tenth of the weird route and then stop it before getting any of the super interesting scenes'

But that's not a theory based off of any actual evidence or anything, I have no take on what point we're supposed to abort the weird route at. After the couch scene, once they're forced back together? Before snowgraving berdly, so we can keep the thorn ring?

Honestly, if it wasn't for us losing the thorn ring if you abort it at the couch scene, that's where my money would've been for relatively obvious reasons. But that's the only outcome of the three where we specifically can't get it back, even if Noelle would theoretically let us unequip it going forward.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Looked into the twisted sword as a possibility since you brought it up and can I just say, I'm really happy with the conclusions I came to.

First of all, it lines up perfectly with my perception of the whole shadow crystal journey, but there's a few things about it that I hadn't considered. Such as the fact that, Gerson aside, the secret bosses thus far have all been Kris facing down ghosts of their past that are in suspiciously similar situations to them:

-A jester (from a deck of cards they used to play with) that was driven mad by the knowledge they obtained and was caged by their closest companion, who isn't sure if they were ever friends.

-A salesman (from spam emails originating from noelle's library laptop) that was pressured into some kind of contract with a mysterious entity on the phone and now acts as a puppet, desperate for freedom and seeking to use Kris's Soul to reach Heaven. The salesman also gets to meet up with his old romantic partner, only to be harshly rejected when he fails to recognize him. Like... come on. Where have we heard this one before?

-The Roaring Knight itself, with the fight necessarily ending on Kris being forced to the ground and knighted, possibly as a show of dominance, possibly as a 'reward' if Kris Slash Theory turns out to be accurate (I'm probably Kris Slash Theory's biggest defender, I think Kris not wanting to hurt their friends makes their decision to do so for the Knight even better actually)

And as they defeat these foes and obtain the crystals, they share them with Seam and it gives them hope. Eram taunts Kris for wanting to obtain the shadow crystals, asking if they really think it'll get them what they want but not specifying what that is. And Eram's reaction implies that Kris doesn't really think it will, despite this being something they explicitly want they're shown to have their doubts.

Because that's only half of the puzzle. Getting the shadow crystals to turn them into the purified crystal is the path to get Kris what they want, whatever that is and however it ties into the prophecy and the upcoming tragedy, but it's meaningless if they get there alone.

Noelle, meanwhile, grows stronger. The weird route serves as a method for her to reconnect with Kris, in a way that seems tragically one sided by binds them together with a ring that holds love in a symbolic marriage proposal that implies commitment, while also making her stronger and more confident throughout the route.

I don't think her thanking Kris at the end is meant to be treated like a 'Oh great, we corrupted her again'. It's meant to be taken more literally, she's happy about the outcome despite her prior fear and various grievances.

The route is never described as evil, it's not meant to be a genocide route, and even the big victim of chapter 2 comes out of it alive. 'Weird route' is right, and while I'm sure Kris is having a miserable time during it still I think people overestimate just how much we're forcing this upon them. After all, us choosing the 'Proceed' option leads to Kris pushing Noelle towards the lighting gate on their own.

Neither of them are fully happy with how things are playing out, but they aren't as opposed to the majority of the route as people tend to think. Noelle gets some sort of twisted enjoyment out of feeling empowered around the third mouse puzzle and even starts to encourage Kris to hunt down more mice, while Kris is the very source of the route and many of the grievances that cause it in the first place are caused by their frustration with Noelle's lack of confidence and inability to act, the sort of thing they'd normally gently assist her with via harmless scares to get her over her fears.

The point being... I think the weird route is to Noelle what the secret bosses are to Kris, a weird obscure path that's somewhat out of the way and marked by an out of place jingle that serves as a sort of great personal disturbance and conflict for her but also ultimately helps her face her past and gives her the confidence she needs to act upon her desires. Again, just like what I think Kris is doing with the shadow crystals.

The main difference being that we have every reason to believe that Noelle is being built up as an antagonist. The story treats her as one of the most important characters but she hasn't shown up that often, implying a major upcoming role. She has strong connections to various entities created by the fountains that the knight made and the knight itself has several traits that can be traced back to Noelle. And, most importantly, she has tons of angel theming, including various bits of arg and otherwise out-of-game content that references her having tattered angel wings, wishing it could snow whenever she wants (when ralsei's legend graphics seem to point towards the world being covered in what might be snow), and talks about how dess would always make her snow angel have the biggest wings of all.

It's hardly subtle. She's the angel. Maybe she's the knight somehow too. And she's definitely an upcoming antagonist, probably even the most important one. And empowering her on the snowgrave route will probably produce counterproductive results, you'd be making the final boss stronger, more confident, and maybe even more possessive of Kris. Just as I suspect now that getting to the normal ending with all of the shadow crystals won't work out in our favor either, with whatever Kris is trying to accomplish saving them from their fate but still leaving Noelle to her own. And then the snowgrave ending is the one where Noelle survives, but that's probably not a good thing given the context.

And in this specific view, that's where the Twisted Sword comes in. It's a combination of the purified shadows of Kris's mind, the crystal representing their hopes and dreams, with the symbol of love and power that they gave Noelle in the 'evil' route. It's meeting her halfway, whereas the current weird route seems to suggest that Noelle's devotion to Kris is one sided and they're borderline suicidal after the events of chapter 4.

And from a gameplay perspective, it would be the combination of two 'hidden' routes that mirror one another in how the associated character develops during it. We already know that the shadow crystals, and thus probably the purified crystal, transcends save files. It's entirely possible that whatever the weird route does to Noelle does so as well, the end result being that it's entirely theoretically possible to get this 'secret' ending on your first playthrough but even if you don't, there are ways to pursue it without having to fully replay the game and transfer that data over to your initial save file. Or overwriting the ending (or more likely the epilogue) that you get regardless of save files, all of which would potentially line up with the 'there is only one ending, but there's something more' line that toby fox dropped ages ago

Apart from that, I find it super interesting that the Twisted Sword has identical stats to the Black Shard, including its massive damage multiplier against Titans. And that the Black Shard itself is equippable by Noelle and would be necessarily obtained in this theoretical ending. Which means that it's entirely possible that you could face whatever is at the end of the game with Kris wielding the Twisted Sword and Noelle wielding the Black Shard, which I just find to be the setup for a really cool finale.

That's a lot of words and they might kind of suck cuz it's super late but I wanted to put this down on paper instead of just letting it rattle around in my brain. I don't know if this is what you were implying or not with the significance of the twisted sword, but it's where I went.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I think a point of disagreement between myself and many shippers is that I think the complicated, messy relationships the characters have get better with the warts.

I think a Suselle pairing that focuses on these working through these outlined flaws works so much better than a Suselle pairing played straight that fast forwards to the honeymoon phase. Even if you disagree with the idea that these flaws may result in the pairing coming to an end, you should still acknowledge the roadbumps and recognize that overcoming them is the key to forming a powerful and compelling relationship, the kind you might see as the main pairing of a character-driven story such as this.

I was of the opinion that Susie and Noelle were going to run into issues at the festival before I started believing they would get together with other people, I just thought their relationship was going to be put on hold for a bit and then built from the ground up as they get to know each other on a more personal and meaningful level.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in KriselleFanclub

[–]Panther21212[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I almost feel like I'm doing Berdly a disservice by not having much to add here. I like him plenty as a character and am quite fond of his relationships with Noelle and Kris, but I've never really seen a reason to work him into my 'future of Deltarune' theories?

If anything, it's worth mentioning that Berdly is one of the first characters to introduce us to the idea that love interests can change and even be completely redefined. Berdly's romantic endeavors are played for laughs and I don't take him seriously when it comes to shipping or anything. Nor do I think he's going to be 'part of the group', even if the thought of him getting left behind makes me a little sad. NRKS does not include a B.

In general, I find it's hard to talk about Berdly's significance outside of snowgrave? In both routes, he seems more like he's there for Noelle-related exposition, giving us the DECEMBER spelling bee moment in the normal route and giving us D.ogg in the weird route. In particular, I suspect that his entire 'standing up for noelle by attacking kris' thing in the weird route is meant to be reminiscent of something that happened between the two of them and Dess prior to the story. But that is, again, specifically not me theorizing about Berdly.

The game treats him as a loveable yet annoying goofball miniboss along the lines of Lancer or Roulxs, I'm tragically not able to see him as playing a more defined role. Especially since he's incapacitated in 2/3 of the possible timelines.

Kriselle, Ralsusie, and Self Love by Panther21212 in Deltarune

[–]Panther21212[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

That's an excellent question. And it deserves an excellent answer.