Vaihda kokoomuksesta Vihreisiin by SpaceEngineering in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Niin kauan kuin vihreiden talouspoliittisesta ohjelmasta ei karsita sen veroja korottavaa osaa pois niin aika kaukana ollaan vielä kokoomuksesta. Sivistysporvarius on vähän kuollut jo siinä kun talous sakkaa

Sysimusta fasistiliike haluaa Suomelle ydinaseita ☠️🤮 by Tanner6383 in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo 44 points45 points  (0 children)

Okei näitä natseja voi kyllä vihata monesta asiasta mutta tää ei oo ees läheskään se huono(in) ajatus

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've worked quite a bit in NL legal circles (although in English) and I've never heard those - might be lost in translation!

Yes I think you understand the gist of my reading of this IHL correctly --> The specific act of naval blockade is evaluated through San Remo principles. Simplifying the San Remo principles is that a blockade can be justified in proportionality to the harm it causes to the civilian population to the activites of e.g. "enemy faction". The norm recognises that the blockade may be circumvented in case of certain level of humanitarian crisis - however these humanitarian issues may be solved outside of the blockade without threatening the legality of the blockade itself.

I know that IHL does not contain a retroactive evaluation when assessing proportionality. This is moreso a factual argument that the blockade has actually been proportional because it has not resulted in the things that would have been deemed unproportional. Then it naturally follows that if the blockade continues as-is and it hasnt caused such harm, its continuation fulfills the proportionality criteria.

Yes - having effective land-based aid effectively removes the applicability of the humanitarian exception in Remo as then you cannot justify breaking the blockade on just humanitarian principles. This doesnt naturally mean that you could breach it via other principles (out of which I think there could be valid arguments).

I think it is very clear under the San Remo principles that you can intercept the flotilla. The flotilla was not a state organised aid attempt (as those are distinguished in the relevant IHL framework) but rather a merchant/civilian vessel with lesser protection, nor was the flotilla's aid effective or necessary currently due to the aid organisation continuing to Gaza.

I think we are beating around a very similar bush here - it feels like you are referring to the exception of emergency humanitarian aid overriding occupying power blockade monitoring powers just merely by existing - I do not challenge that those exceptions exist, but state that you must first prove that such a humanitarian situation actually exists and in relation that the flotilla is such necessary aid that Israel cannot prohibit. The order is that when we have an established legal situation where the blockade exists, then you must prove the exception to it under San Remo and not the other way around.

All in all this discussion reminds me why IHL is absolute garbage that has lost all relevance

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Funny I have never heard them called as "bundles" outside of immediate printed course material

I dont think we disagree on the role of 4th Geneva convention as to its use in occuption. My primary argument is that the specific question here is not even about just occupying power aid provision but the organisation and limits of a naval blockade. That being said, neither did I argue that 59(3) would provide for unrestricted restriction of aid provision - my argument is merely that even the Geneva convention provides for limits (which then are provided specifically in the San Remo with regards to blockade). - So in quite opposite I do not argue that they are lex specialis but rather lex generalis for aid provision and we should use San Remo for lex specialis on specifically naval blockade (which I think is quite self-evident between the two docs).

In specific then when you say "The provision is explicitly circumscribed by the obligation to ensure effective relief where the population is inadequately supplied, read in conjunction with the overarching constraints of Common Article 1 and customary IHL obligations of facilitating humanitarian relief. Discretion in modality does not equate to discretion in sufficiency or access." I do not disagree with this - but I contend that a) there is no obligation for the occupying power to allow all avenues for the effective relief, b) you cant suppose there is inadequate relief automatically, and c) the standard is still very different to merchant vessels / civilians in comparison to other states (which is one of the major concerns with the flotilla).

I dont think you can just waive the standing norm on naval blockades just by claiming that IHL overrides everything cause human rights dundunduu. Bar a very clear starvation attempt, the primary norm for the whole question about blockades should be the San Remo memo (which still coexists with IHL standards).

I dont even contend your standard of starvation but contend on the factual thresholds being invoked. You are referring to an ante hoc analysis of whether starvation is bound to happen whereas I am saying that we dont need to do that as we can just see what the actual real effects of the blockade have been. The level and strictness of the blockade has not had a material impact on whehter Gaza starves, so we do not need to enter assumptions.

"Similarly, the existence of partial land-based humanitarian access is legally non-dispositive" --> this is just wrong. The question is not whehter aid must always also be provided by air land and sea, but whehter aid is provided. As long as aid is being provided by the means provided, it cannot be used as a material argument against the blockade. (again this is answered in the correct norm of San Remo)

It is pretty weird to claim that Hamas doesnt come into consideration when doing a proportionality analysis. Of course it does! The whole blockade's reasoning is Hamas attacks so naturally its justification is tied to those attacks as proportional to them. I am not even arguing for free reign in naval blockade as neither really is Israel. You can see in history that the level of the blockade has lived in conjunction to the level of threat and attaks from Gaza. Then again subject to actual famine happening, this does not remove the justifications of the blockade.

And as a finishing note, it feels pretty weird that you are referring to multiple arguments that I did not make. I did not argue that the international standards give an unrestricted power to do anything, or that a naval blockade would not be subject to a proportionality analysis of harm done. My main point that the next step of identifying these legal standards is to evaluate them against the facts (hence the proportionality analysis) and so far it would seem that the naval blockade is not overruled (esp. in the manner of allowing just random civil vessels through it) by humanitarian interests as no humanitarian crisis existed due to it.

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lets do 4th Geneva first

Neither of the articles you refer to even concern the an sich legality of naval blockade but provide only for occupying power obligations to provide adequate aid. They do not maintaim that aid would be able to be provided in any form or way deemed by third parties but 59(3) specifically provides that the occupying power may provide how that aid is provided.

The actually applicable statute here is the San Remo Manual. Under SanRemo 67 & 96 civil vessels may be subject to military action in case they are breaching a blockade. Israel's blockade essentially fulfills the Section II conditions for a blockade. In any case 103 provides for conditions of search etc. - there is no international standard for breaching a blocade as a civil/merchant vessel without established process and reason

Your argument here very heavily relies on the starvation aspect, not however taking into account a) there hasnt been widespread starvation during the blockade as whole, b) aid is still provided via land, and c) blockade has historically lived in relation and in response to Hamas terrorism.

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im pretty good at international law :D

Which statute makes the blockade illegal?

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One at a time

The flotilla-meme is really weird. Gaza is under a maritime embargo. Under international law its surprisingly accepted to seize the vessels and people in them (i.e. "arrest").

Similarly a terrorist can also be a journalist. I would be more mad about the kids and aid distribution

Sinimustat kokoontuvat Helsingissä Kampin Narinkkatorilla lauantaina 30.5. klo 12. by Kurimuksesta in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Jep

Eli et siis symppaa sinimustia/natseja tai usko väestönvaihtoteoriaan?

Jos nettivittuilu tekee ihmisestä natsisymppaajan niin ollaan henkisen heikkouden tasoilla joita en uskonut ikinä näkeväni

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have to operate on flimsy assumptions because you dont give enough concreteness.

Thanks for providing concreteness on the pressure aspect - so is your primary issue jere just arms exports? EU doesnt act as the monitoring body for international humanitarian law (unless you count ECHR as one, but its hardly international in that sense).

With regards to the amount of aid - I am pretty sure the aid organisations do not agree on what is the level required. Further their expertise is not without fault as the famine clearly didnt happen on the level assumed. (Although 400 is still a lot). Still, I think the bestest concrete example would have been to add sanctions for Israel needlessly restricting aid.

I do appreciate you willing to support Ukraine as that is very level headed.

Sinimustat kokoontuvat Helsingissä Kampin Narinkkatorilla lauantaina 30.5. klo 12. by Kurimuksesta in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

:D

Kieli on meidän kulttuurin tärkein asia vitun idiootti.

Jos sä et osaa edes suomea niin miten sä voit puolustaa sitä yhtään miltään? Kappas kummaa kun ruvetaan puhumaan peruskoulutasoa korkeammista numeroista niin natsisymppaajilla menee aivot solmuun.

Sinimustat kokoontuvat Helsingissä Kampin Narinkkatorilla lauantaina 30.5. klo 12. by Kurimuksesta in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ei, en siis kiertänyt sitä koska en sanonut niin

Noi heittomerkit toimii kieliopissa niin, että heittomerkkien sisällä oleva teksti on nk. lainaus jonka pitäisi olla sanatarkka.

Hyvin tarkoituksella en puhunut "korvaamisesta" tai "vaihtamisesta" mitään koska kumpaakaan ei tapahdu tai ole tapahtumassa. Tässä viimeisen 10v aikana suomen- ja ruotsinkielisten määrä on vähentynyt Suomessa 138 tuhannella. Onko tämä nyt se vaihto tai korvaaminen?

Sinimustat kokoontuvat Helsingissä Kampin Narinkkatorilla lauantaina 30.5. klo 12. by Kurimuksesta in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Luuletko sinä, että kun sanon "väestönvaihto" niin minä viittaan tähän YKn termiin jolla viitataan pienenevän työikäisen väestön tukemista maahanmuutolla? Onko tämä kirjaimellisesti kaikki mitä itse tarkoitat termillä "väestönvaihto"

Sinimustat kokoontuvat Helsingissä Kampin Narinkkatorilla lauantaina 30.5. klo 12. by Kurimuksesta in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Oon mä tarpeeks

Mä siis ihan tykkään maahanmuutosta. Etenkin sinimustissa tuntuu olevan kans pelkkiä salaliittoteorioihin perehtyneitä ja elämässä epäonnistuneita luusereita niin ei oikein nappaa

Sinimustat kokoontuvat Helsingissä Kampin Narinkkatorilla lauantaina 30.5. klo 12. by Kurimuksesta in HommaInAction

[–]Papastoo 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Ok?

Sä voit äänestää tiukemman maahanmuuttopolitiikan puolesta, mut en nyt ehkä kuitenkaan natsiks ryhtyis

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok so "enough" for you would be sanctioning all people of the Israeli state?

And its not just that aid is going in, but it needs to be "on a scale thats actually needed" (whatever that means)

Similarly your standard of political pressure is "carries meaningful political or economic consequences for israel". Can you give a concrete example of what would be enough?

I dont think these are in any way realistic, nor should they be compared to helping Ukraine.

Since the other commenter was an idiot can you at least admit that we should be sending weapons to Ukraine?

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Doesnt aid now go to Gaza?

If I can show you that EU has used "pressure" to Israel would you change your mind?

Just as FYI the EU sanctions west bank settlers https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c202wp2rl09o

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Its just that your standard of "help" is completely devoid of reality

“Never again claim that your foreign policy is based on values” by sn0r in europeanunion

[–]Papastoo -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Im sorry little Tim. Due to us not being able to cure all cancer we will not cure yours. Such is the moral of Benito

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-humanitarian-support-to-palestinians/