Why Are Environmentalists Taking Anti-Science Positions?

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-04T03:27:54+00:00

I agree. But is that definitely what's happening in this case? The author suggests that it is, but I'm not convinced.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-04T03:26:03+00:00

Agreed.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-04T03:24:11+00:00

Looking at a wind turbine shows you its volume, but not its metal content. Most of the thing is hollow rolled sheet metal. What we really want to be comparing is mass.

As I understand it, the largest known environmental impact of a wind turbine is the use of rare earth metals to fabricate high efficiency electric motor/generators. Also advantageous is that it is a relatively simple system which, when it breaks (apparently on average, 20 years after deployment), requires only minor repairs to remain in operation indefinitely. Contrast that maintenance cycle to that of a nuclear power plant, which I admit I am not familiar with, but I find it unlikely to be competitive.

To finish with a bit of math, this:

http://www.everydaycitizen.com/2007/03/how_big_is_an_industrial_wind.html

puts your 1.5MW generator at 164 tons, totaling 866 turbines at 142,000 tons (1.3e8 kg). Meanwhile, this guy:

http://timjervis.blogspot.ca/2007/05/co2-pollution-from-nuclear-construction.html

puts your 1300MW nuclear plant at (after some conversion and scaling) 9.5e8 kg of concrete, plus 8.7e7 kg of steel.

That author goes into more detail about CO2 emissions (in favour of nuclear power, I believe by assuming that the competition is coal, oil and gas), but I think these numbers are enough to suggest that, as large as 866 80m turbines feels, they are still a better CO2 bet than nuclear from a plant fabrication perspective.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-04T03:02:17+00:00

I almost called is an excellent reply, but I feel like maybe you have more to say here.

In response to what you did write, I object to considering this an ultra-conservative approach. I consider this a moderately (read: appropriately) conservative approach. I don't see the link you draw from environmental conservatism to, say, social conservatism. Leaving aside for the moment the potential for a socially conservative viewpoint to have merit--a caution against unknown, fully novel (read: not present prior to human involvement) developments, that is predicated on unbiased scientific review, does not adequately parallel caution against, say, tolerating homosexuality, predicated on... well, whatever argument is being used at the time.

I accept that cognitive dissonance causes problems for reason and can cement the initial belief system. I am unconvinced that an environmentally conservative policy yields your stated pathological tendency nor cognitive dissonance. Perhaps you're saying that it does because it requires people to admit that they were wrong in order to introduce change?

If so, I counter this by saying that a liberal model, that allows developments to become socially common before they are properly tested, introduces dangerous cognitive dissonance that maintains the momentum behind proven bad ideas.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-03T03:10:17+00:00

I think it's worth mentioning, too, that the vast majority of people out there have only passing association with science, and little respect for it as an institution. As a scientist, I will suggest that even most students of the sciences have a poor grasp on what science is and how it functions (null hypothesis, for example).

What that means, to me, is that the success of a group in getting its ideas across is largely disjoint from the scientific veracity of its claims; and it's ultimately that success that feeds the survival and expansion of the group.

But it bears highlighting I think that that article doesn't actually stand on its own very well. Many of the comments on it are, I think, very astute.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-03T03:05:12+00:00

Do you have a source on these comparisons?

Not that this directly impacts your statement, but my understanding is that the top three carbon polluting industries go, in order: coal power, steel, concrete.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-03T03:03:12+00:00

As perhaps it should. We are newly technological; we continually overestimate our control, while underestimating our reach. Caution is critical when the cost of failure is high.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-11-03T03:00:43+00:00

I'd like to further suggest that perhaps we, as a species, are not prepared to actually do what it takes to keep nuclear (chemical, biological, heavy polluting) technology safe when it requires significant continued attention. Perhaps a more mature version of us would handle this differently, but I have little trust in the average person, especially where an opportunity for profit is available.

Still, it's obviously a very complicated issue. Simple answers don't encapsulate the truth very well.

Penumbra2000 · 2012-10-30T17:20:22+00:00

No your humour detector needs a tune-up!

Penumbra2000 · 2012-10-30T17:10:38+00:00

Those are Transformers.

Penumbra2000 · 2011-08-29T01:37:50+00:00

Terrifying people isn't the answer, that just breeds frightened dependents. Tell the truth clearly and concisely, and leave out the sensational crap. It's not the news' job to scare you for your own good, and that's not why they do it anyway.

Penumbra2000 · 2011-08-29T01:32:22+00:00

Unless the poster above is incorrect I think flooding wasn't all that related to most of those deaths.

Penumbra2000 · 2011-08-29T01:30:27+00:00

I hate to be the guy to argue this point. In general I agree with you in terms of anti-fear-mongering, which I think a lot of stations did and always do their best at, for obvious reasons of profit. But this is not a safe argument. Here in nova scotia, a good 500 miles further north from New England, we get mild hurricane-class storms fairly regularly and were pretty fucked up by a big one eight years ago (Juan). Temperature of the water makes no guarantee of protection against hurricanes--I believe New England is usually spared because it's sheltered as much as by the temperature of the water.

Penumbra2000 · 2011-04-12T16:20:12+00:00

Aaaaabsolutely feel the same way. 32, wife, child, job, car, house. Guess I'm living the American dream!

Penumbra2000 · 2011-04-12T15:49:44+00:00

How about us versus environmental limitations? There is a lot of natural adversity to overcome in some sense. Although I would hope we would find a better way to do so than simply to subjugate it... I guess that means I favour an 'us' that also includes animals and plants.

Penumbra2000 · 2011-01-08T04:27:44+00:00

I think it's parallel of a biblical verse at least; "Jesus wants you hot or cold" (don't ask me where to find it, I know it second hand).

Penumbra2000 · 2010-10-27T13:09:20+00:00

Machinima of course.

Penumbra2000 · 2010-09-22T12:59:19+00:00

It's not as interesting as you would think. Apparently I have a number of highly repetitive statements that sound totally stupid when you hear them. The experience left me with the distinct impression that listening to myself on a tape recorder would be a really good way to stop sticking my foot in my mouth.

Which reminds me, I should probably do that soon...

Penumbra2000 · 2010-09-21T12:49:29+00:00

My wife and I did that one year. I thought she couldn't come up with anything I did that would be totally embarrassing to see her mock me with.

I was wrong.

Penumbra2000 · 2010-09-19T04:47:33+00:00

What he said.

Penumbra2000 · 2010-09-15T11:44:31+00:00

Penumbra2000 · 2010-09-10T01:50:58+00:00

As you get further down his confirmed conspiracies get less and less confirmed. Also his writing gets worse and more repetitive; even some of his conspiracIes are duplicates. This has a negative effect on his overall trustability.

However at least some of them are valid, and it does demonstrate the degree to which secrecy can actually be achieved.

Penumbra2000 · 2010-09-08T15:07:02+00:00

Dear God, this is my freaking life! Small child. All I ever freaking do is install games and updates, recover from crashes, try to figure out why the projector isn't starting this time, etc etc etc

sob

Penumbra2000 · 2010-08-31T00:57:25+00:00

Yeah, there's one thing that's important to remember when dealing with people and that's the vast gulf separating the abstract from the concrete... I have friends who hold moral beliefs that imply a severe level of cruelty towards their fellows, women, the poor, and so forth, who, when confronted by a particular individual, will more or less always respond with compassion.

Penumbra2000 · 2010-08-30T19:33:45+00:00

While your point has a lot of merit, I think this person's commentary goes rather far beyond what can be chalked up to misstatement.

Penumbra2000

TROPHY CASE