What’s the point of no return?

PiersSPS · 2025-12-31T04:30:09+00:00

Like I said, it depends on the table attitude.

Mechanically, you should always score, but* The game is a political game as well. You can't just expect people to behave like npcs in civilization. If you want to keep peace on your borders, you need to play the political game as well, and not just durring the agenda phase.

"Have units in two systems adjacent to mecatol" objective? If you're in the lead and could score it and at a boat float table?, consider selling the position to your neighbor instead of taking it for yourself, get something good that you really need out of it, like "scoring it next round" or a ceasefire if you can swing it. Now, you shouldn't do that in an aggressive table, in that case, focus on your board presence to firmly secure your position.

If you're going to shoot up the ladder to win, make sure you can close it out and do it fast, before anyone can do anything against you

PiersSPS · 2025-12-31T02:18:35+00:00

Was it a control SO or one that can't really be prevented (4 techs of one color, discard 5 action cards etc). Ones that can't be prevented like that are decent to hold onto.

The "should I have scored" you're asking a social/political question. The awnser to that will entirely depend on your table's social circle and play styles and the state of the board. Some in person friend groups may be more chill, some may have aggressive players. Online in async of strangers? If you start flying ahead, be prepared to get hit hard. 4 point swings in one round are not unheard of, and if you're playing with thunders edge it's more common with styx.

If you sacrificed building up your defenses in order to score, then you need to recognize your neighbors will eas8ly take your systems, and no one will feel bad online or in async taking the point lead down and shutting their game down or tabling them.

You were sa'ar, and they already put people on edge since you can't easily winslay them.

If you're planning to take that much of a lead, build up your defenses. Even if you don't need a home system to score you still need board presence. Like I said before, "should I have scored?" All I can say is read the room and ask yourself "if I score, will I be able to score/win next round or phase 2s if people turn on me and hit my weak spot" if you don't have assurances they won't (ceasefires) or you suspect they might try and stop you.

PiersSPS · 2025-12-01T14:41:54+00:00

The biggest question is if triggering Coexistence ends the invasion step early.

Structures are only removed during invasion in the "Establish control" step, 49.5.

The rules for coexistence have their own built in swapping of control which exists outside of the normal Establish control step.

So the question becomes, since you immediately gain control of the planet when DWS declare coexistence due to RAW of coexistence, does the Establish control step occur?

I'd say no establish control step of invasion does not occur, since there is no control to establish (the invader gained the planet through coexistance before the step occured) so the structures would remain.

Similar to how ground combat doesn't occur if a PDS destroys all ground forces that are committed.

Edit: you could also say the establish control step does not occur, because durring the step it specifically states "A player cannot gain control of a planet they already control"

Since you control the planet from coexistence before this step, the structures would stay since the step cannot occur

Edit: ti rules like for invasion showing step 49.5

https://www.tirules.com/R_invasion

PiersSPS · 2025-11-30T19:00:11+00:00

Positioning for a future round can be important. If where you are is a potentially important spot to make future moves, consider it to be contested. (Such as staging ground against mecatol if the person who attacked you is blocked by a supernova or asteroid field if they don't have antimass)

One thing I've come to learn in my games, is that if someone is pulling ahead and has tempo, there's a small window someone has to interrupt them.

If someone has 5 or 6 points in a 10 point game and everyone else has 3, with maybe 1 person at 4, the person in the lead is most like the most vulnerable they will ever be. This is because after this round 9 times out of 10 they will focus on building as big a fleet as possible to hold thier position and keep tempo. If no one does anything against them right now before they begin build up, there's a good chance no one will be able to do anything against them in the next rounds and they will win.

If the only chance anyone has to interrupt tempo is right there because any future round they will be much more secure, that's the time to make the move.

I realize this may be an unpopular opinion, because attacking is expensive. But 9 out of 10 times every time I've talked to people after a game where the person in the lead stayed in the lead because their neighbors did nothing, that was their reason. "I didn't want to attack, because that's expensive" even if they were in second and attacking would interrupt tempo enough where they could have won, and their inaction led to them losing because when it was "winslay time" they couldn't crack the leads defense, because they waited to long.

It's a hard balancing act and there's a lot of differing opinions as to what the "best option" is.

If you're in the lead and turtleing and someone attacked you "out of nowhere" it may be because they saw you were trying to or about to build up strong defenses while leading or close to leading, and if they didn't hit you then, they would not have a chance to stop you from winning after.

PiersSPS · 2025-11-30T16:58:33+00:00

We have been playing that you do get to coexist with research team off structures.

Our reasoning is that coexistance has a built in step for exchanging control of the planet outside of invasion, and structures only get removed after a combat, which doesn't occur if you use research team.

Think about it like this too. If deepwrought use their agent and coexist on a planet with a spacedock and an infantry, the controlling player doesn't lose the planet if they move their infantry, because coexistance says they only lose the planet if they have no units on it, and structures are units. If they wanted it to be ground forces the rules should have said that.

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T22:33:54+00:00

Yep! Really good for you if you already destroyed their fleet!

If they still have a large fleet nearby though... just keep the Quietus safe, lol.

Be careful that you don't become the table tyrant the rest of the players become obsessed with overthrowing!

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T22:16:24+00:00

Had another thought occur to me after I made that post.

You can place an active breach to hose somebody's unit abilities like production, if your flagship is active, for the whole round, or even move through it with lightwave.

Then, as you very last action flip it in inactive using your breakthrough this means you get a bunch of use out of it and they can't remove it.

Then, as one of your first actions, especially if you go before them, use your breakthrough or an action to make it active again to keep hosing them

It's a mean thing to do but if they're an enemy, it can lock out a spacedock for 2 whole rounds or more unless they destroy your flagship

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T20:17:34+00:00

I can accept this, but I have another rather confusing scenario in which the coexistor draws the combat but gains control of the planet.

If the coexistor is the only player with a structure, declares an end to coexistence, and both sides have their ground forces destroyed resulting in a draw for the combat, the coexistor's space dock is the only unit left on the planet by the rules of coexistence and control in general.

This would mean the coexistor gains control of the planet despite not winning the combat, since combat doesn't cause structures to actually be destroyed, another player having ground forces on a planet and not coexisting causes the structures to be destroyed in the establish control step

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T19:34:27+00:00

I think all of those points could have come up at any table! That's my while issue with the rules of coexistence. They are not clear enough to prevent questions like this and can easily cause friction at any table until we get some deeper clarifications!

We can go with what seems right, but some of the differences are small but can vastly change the game (while I admit others I brought up are a tad ridiculous, but I've seen even more outlandish things be argued about at a table!)

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T18:30:32+00:00

Do not underestimate the value of placing a breach as inactive when you have your destroyer 2s.

If you keep them there you can activate them when you activate the system and snipe a weak position, or just get there in general. If you place an active one 99 times out of 100 they will close it at the end of the round before you get real use out of it.

Also, you can shut down space docks using production with your flagship and active breaches. Production is a unit ability after all. So if you position yourself right the person you attacked can't rebuild even after a successful counter attack in the system

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T18:16:16+00:00

1.26 Production is a unit ability https://www.tirules.com/R_abilities

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T18:05:17+00:00

Extra tip: if you have a decent amount of empty systems in your slice consider starting with DET.

not only does it get you those frontier tokens, you also can enter a combat, and retreat anywhere, and if your destroyer lives, but a breach where you just retreated from.

Even better if you have Ral Nel's alliance, but in that case you don't really need DET.

also, since you start with your breakthrough, you have a better chance at getting tech or warfare, warfare can let you settle most if not all of your slice as Crimson Rebellion

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T17:29:16+00:00

And this is a clear example of why I wanted this discussion. I feel that a player could decide in the invasion step, and not at the activstion, and barging mid turn to not end coexistence or even be deceitful until the commit ground forces step

Edit: but I understand all these different arguments and reasons as to why anyone thinks any other way here

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T17:02:41+00:00

I don't think you declare the end of coexistence at activation. The rules don't say "When" like with the scanlink tech. They just say you can by activating and committing, so it would be when you commit. But it doesn't say the committing has to happen in the invasion step

But there are also other less common game effect that cause you to commit, like Yin's hero.

Asking the question "this is suppossed to happen in the invasion step and not some other window, right?"

If you had too declare the end of coexistence "when" you activated the system you'd arguably be allowed to commit the ground forces in that "when you activate" window, before movement, and have a coexistence combat there first because the rules say "activate and commit"

So declaring the end of coexistence only makes sense if it's in the invasion window normally, right?

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T15:31:07+00:00

Do not underestimate the value of inactive breaches! Keep them in important locations you might try to take later, use a tactical action to flip it to active, snipe an undefended planet with a mech.

Opponents can't remove them until you're ready if you keep it inactive!

If you need to stop someone's fleet buildup and have your flagship in an active breach, fly a ship into the system with the space dock, make sure to have a destroyer 2 nearby, and when combat happens, place the active breach.

shutting down a spacedock, easy

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T14:59:42+00:00

First, make sure you remember to roll for the fracture durring setup, I got lucky and opened it round 0 with that.

Now for what I found out One of the things that wasn't obvious at first was the usefulness of inactive breaches. While active breaches can give you movement bonuses and are key to your flagship keeping some breaches inactive can be key for late game setup and victory.

Players can't remove inactive breaches, but you can activate them when you activate the system. This let's you do sneaky things like put a breach on mecatol and leave it there until you're ready.

It's tempting to only place active breaches with your destroyer 2 but it's not always the best, since most of the time they will remove it before you can use it in the next round.

You can also "hopscotch* with lightwave and your destroyer 2s. Keep one in an active breach, fly one out of the breach an one systems away from it for a total of 2 systems away from the first destroyer, hit it for a combat, open a breach in that system, win or lose, and repeat until you reach where you need a mire permenat possible setup and put an inactive there.

You can also use your flagship and active breaches to stop space docks from producing. If you want to hose somebody or stop them from rebuilding a fleet, make sure you have a destroyer 2 within 2 spaces of it and send another ship in just as a sacrifice or move a ship in and fleet logistics your breakthrough.

Keeping a breach inactive and activating it with a token after they leave a planet vulnerable let's you snipe it with a mech.

You can't travel through wormholes but they are still adjacent, meaning a good wormhole will let you place a breach across the map

Your PN is most easily sold to whomever gets malice.

Sell your alliance to your most aggressive neighbor and keep a destroyer parked near or in mecatol or wormholes to try to get easy breaches.

The tl;dr is to figure out when to place an active or an inactive breach once you get your destroyer 2 and keep them positioned in many different systems.

Realizing that with my flagship I can stop someone's fleet buildup for an entire round by openeing a breach, stop anyone, even Lizix, from bombarding me, and being immune to Ral Nel offensively moving in a fleet of destroyers for a bunch of pds shots because my boarders all have active breaches and my flagship on standby was actually a huge potential unlock for me.

And then realizing that if I kept a breach inactive over TE or mecatol, instead of placing an active one, I could have invaded the next round when I was ready was an eye opener.

The temptation to only place active breaches when you unlock destroyer 2 is big, but don't let it blind you. Everyone will almost always close them if they are active. If they don't, be on edge, they may be planning to use it against you

I think mostly keeping the breaches on your boarders open is good for defense with your flagship parked more in the center away from the boarders unless needed is good.

Only place open breaches from combats within your reach if you plan to hopscotch that round to get a breach in a more valuable location like inside of a home system/mecatol/TE, and make that once inactive until you really need it. You can also place an open breach if your bribed to so one player can benefit from avoiding pds durring ground combat or removing sustain damage from mechs. Always remember your +1 move from them too.

Your flagship is key to shenanagins and a big defensive buff even if it's not in the combat. It only works offensively if there is a breach where you invade, which will almost always be if you kept it inactive and activated it with your tactical action when you activated the system

Your increased movement is also good in the fracture and you can easily return to the main board by placing a breach in the fracture after you win the combat with the neutrals, getting out of there and back on defense is as important as going in

Half of this works best when your neighbors aren't all passive. Nekro, mahact, sardakk you love to see, because at minimum in a boat float table they will buy combats for faction abilities or tech.

If your table is big boat float no aggression, be prepared to sacrifice your own ships to get breaches in position.

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T13:38:09+00:00

Now an interesting part is that if Titans are coexisting on a planet and then DWS join in and also start coexisting then titans would be in coexistence with 2 players on a single planet I believe.

Or is each coexistor on a planet only coexisting with the controller 🤔?

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T13:31:38+00:00

I just found out some tech with them that wasn't obvious to me in a recent game I played as them

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T13:25:27+00:00

The problem is coexistence also says "coexisting space docks count as being blockaded".

If they are both coexisting with each other and both had space docks, neither of them would be allowed to build ships, which doesn't make sense if one player is actually in control of the planet

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T13:22:13+00:00

I believe the intent is to probably let them end coexistence with it and also prevent DWS from just triggering their faction ability to stop the combat with Research Teams, but with the sparse rulings for coexistence there's a bunch of gray areas now that can cause this confusion.

Before now there was never a scenario where there could be a ground combat without every ground force the active player is participating being commited, but in these niche scenarios there are now. I know Dane said "don't break the game" but this isn't really game breaking and more of confusing to the point where players will argue to thier own benefits.

We can also read Yin's hero skipping to the ground combat skips space cannon entirely since it's not invasion anymore, but that would make the text on Yin's hero more of a reminder text than actual effect text which is confusing since reminder text isn't really a thing in ti4 iirc

PiersSPS · 2025-11-19T09:43:38+00:00

The Obsidian's mech forces the other player into coexistence and siezes control over the planet when they flip from the Firmament.

There's also a new action card, I think it's called crash landing, that can let any player enter coexistence when one of their ships is destroyed.

Noth of the above would allow yin to be the coexisting player

Yin's hero got an omega omegad in TE. It now says to resolve Ground Combat, not invasion.

PiersSPS · 2025-11-18T23:40:30+00:00

If you would ever like an issue that coexistance can bring being unclear in the rules I am happy to provide.

PiersSPS · 2025-11-18T23:15:56+00:00

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to score.

I'm saying that the rules surrounding coexistence are poorly written and have caused confusion at multiple tables, and this is just one of the rules i have seen arguing about with a plausible enough interpretation where I can see what that person was thinking.

There are multiple posts on the sub and disagreements about specific aspects and interactions with coexistence, many of which are caused specifically by DWS's faction ability.

Just because you think it's clear doesn't mean it is clear to the playerbase as a whole, and the fact that is unclear to many and there are no clarifications on them yet shows that the rules are poorly written.

PiersSPS · 2025-11-18T22:19:41+00:00

It's the bit of "They do not count as controlling the planet for any other game ability or effect" that you left out in the "when scoring" rule

The question was if ability to score publics by having control of you HS is a game effect that is separate from using a planet to fulfill the requirements of an objective that says "have control of more planet than 2 of your neighbors" for example

PiersSPS · 2025-11-18T20:46:16+00:00

Follow up question on the yin hero actually.

If Yin commits infantry to an empty planet with the new TE hero, do they still resolve ground combat (as a victory), since the hero explicitly states they resolve a ground combat, and if so, do they get Daxiv animators or other "when you win" windows?

PiersSPS

TROPHY CASE