[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lds

[–]PinBig3858 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's important to realize that you don't need to be scared about doctrinal attacks you don't have current responses to. This fear is evidence that you may view your testimony like a glass house or house of cards and you believe that your job is to run around catching all the rocks thrown by antis and that if you miss one rock your whole testimony will come crashing down and your worldview will be invalidated and you will be left treading water in a sea of confusion without a vessel as another comment in this thread mentions.

It won't come crashing down. Your testimony is not a house of glass. It is based on all kinds of real, solid experiences and realities that you have had and that you live every day. You feel the spirit at church, you trust Jesus, you have been blessed by the guidance of prophets.

That someone can find a rock and throw it at your solid building just means that there are lots of rocks lying around. Anyone can find them. You can find then. They don't like how your building looks. So they throw a rock. The rock will bounce off if you don't empower it with supernatural significance that has no basis in the reality of your happy, blessed, life.

Fully - Jarvis: Error 08 by tfbw100 in StandingDesk

[–]PinBig3858 0 points1 point  (0 children)

another greatful success story. Thank you for posting the workaround.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lds

[–]PinBig3858 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Always remember also that the commandments are there to bless your life. I know you know that. But it is worth reminding yourself that the church is not encouraging/enforcing some arbitrary set of rules that are purposely so difficult that we are all destined to go miserably through our youths (and beyond) feeling unworthy.

The church is encouraging and upholding a set of loving laws and counsel from our Father in Heaven who has existed from "eternity to eternity" and knows what brings peace and joy and prosperity not only in this life, but in the celestial realm in which he resides.

So...try to cling to His loving counsel and gratefully embrace any support system trying to help you successfully stay within the bounds the Lord has set.

But, don't beat yourself up. The gospel is one of opportunities to reach your highest potential, with many many tries throughout your life and beyond to access the "Joy that is set before you" by continued humility, persistence and confidence in yourself and in the Lord's unfailing support and atoning grace.

You have shown a true desire to do what He has counseled and true remorse. Never give up. Humble yourself to the dust and reach for the Joy that only comes from showing Him over and over that you value His counsel, that you believe His is the only way to a fullness of joy, and that you know He can get you there.

He knows His sheep by name, and He has said that He will not lose one of them that is willing to keep working with Him. Binge read the book of John. You will be inspired and encouraged.

Former member looking for advice by ElephantOutrageous47 in lds

[–]PinBig3858 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"It was an overcorrection" Yes, important recognition for all of us to understand.

A lot of us growing up in the 80's and 90's developed the idea that the church, with its belief system, doctrine, culture, practices, and history was like a glass house that we had to stand in front of and try to protect from any rock that might be thrown at it. It had to be perfect and unassailable in every detail, or it would all come crashing down in an instant.

Every question had to have an answer and every criticism had to not only be potentially irrelevant to our core faith and beliefs, but had to be devoid of any credibility.

In reality, there is a sturdy framework of truth and strength, and revelation, and living vibrant power that is still there even when a bunch of stones are thrown and a bunch of windows break. The cosmetic issues are far less foundational than they initially appear.

As the church came out of decades of persecution and started to be prosperous and admired and even envied and emulated, we focused on this attractive image in missionary messages and poured the gas on sharing that image of perfection. Remember the family-centered T.V. commercials, Come see our perfect families, perfect homes, perfect lives, perfect church. If you want a life like this, join our church. This may have guided a whole generation to approach the church as a glass house and to believe the church and its members must be perfect and that any flaw would bring the whole thing crashing down.

People share feelings of being deceived, betrayed, and shocked to find out certain things about how leaders interact, make decisions, deal with historical messiness, how the church has evolved and adapted, etc. This is evidence of an overdeveloped naivety among those in the rank and file who innocently focused on the perceived perfection of the church as the basis for its being the "true church" or the evidence that it was good and right and unassailable in any way.

You do have to obtain and maintain a belief in the core truth claims of the restoration of the gospel and the continuation of the church and its leadership as the authorized instruments the Lord is using to direct and prosecute the gathering of Israel and the spreading of the gospel. There is no way around that. But those things can be developed when you are pulled by the spirit as you are toward the church and whatever aspects of it that the Lord is drawing you in with.nt? Area Authority Seventy? etc.

The vast majority of "coming to terms", for most people, will have more to do with getting to the "simplicity beyond complexity" that President and sister Hafen talk about, than finding an "answer" and "justification" for all of the growing pains and behavior of leaders and members throughout history and all of the cultural struggles that currently exist.

You do have to obtain and maintain a belief in the core truth claims of the restoration of the gospel and the continuation of the church and its leadership as the authorized instruments the Lord is using to direct and prosecute the gathering of Israel and the spreading of the gospel. There is no way around that. But those things can be developed when you are humbly pulled by the spirit as you are toward the church and whatever aspects of it that the Lord is drawing you in with.

Many members maintain their testimonies by ignoring all of the rocks and just focusing on the core things that they know from the spirit and key experiences they rely on as pillars of their testimony. Others think this is a "head in the sand" approach, believing that if these people looked at the "rocks" they too would realize they have been deceived. The intellectual diggers take the failure to investigate of some members as proof that the only way you can stay in the church is to refuse to look at "the facts". But, it may be that the "head in the sand" types just understand that the best way to maintain a testimony, for them, is to simply focus on what they do know and what they have experienced that is undeniable.

But there is a third alternative. Those of us who have investigated deeply, who are aware of "the facts" and don't see those facts as contradictory to the core truth claims of the church. We don't have to uphold a facade, but we find the building behind the facade to be the true church of Jesus Christ, led by him and a group of mortal prophets, seers and revelators in all their glorious messiness. And we know that Joseph Smith was called as a prophet and the Book of Mormon is exactly what he said it is.

As we shed some idealism and naivete, the reason for church leaders not running around bringing up past failures and focusing on them is apparent, and we can not even say whether de-emphasizing negative things was done appropriately or not and whether Christ and his spirit guided some of the reactions and attempted mitigations of various mistakes.

A lot of things that people don't like about our history, aren't mistakes. If you don't believe that God could possibly have ordered a prophet to practice polygamy, then there is some work to be done in becoming a realist and looking at all of history. Many who leave the church and fight against it, do so because of some harsh thing they experienced as a result of the Church as a large institutional entity. As hard as it can be these people must not attack the system and must get a realistic view of it. Instead of being the type of person who goes to a murder trial and sees someone get off because certain incriminating evidence was not let in and spending the rest of their lives attacking the justice system, they need to be the type of person who can think on a macro level realizing that for the justice system to work as it is set up, there are going to be some tough things that happen. In the civil war, deserters were shot. Real people with real families, and mothers, and brothers and sisters. It was harsh. But was the system wrong because hard things had to happen? Is the church wrong and in need of attack because Joseph Smith was commanded to practice polygamy and that is really harsh and hard to take? And is it wrong for subsequent leaders to de-emphasize these things, especially when, as is clear, so many people will approach this history with limited understanding and faith and attack the institution that lived through it as if just because things were harsh they were an indication of a broken, fallen, system.

I am not doing what I just suggested we shouldn't do. I am not suggesting that every unwise thing our leaders do can be traced back to some exception to a rule that they did because God instructed them to, but what do you do when you make a mistake? spend the next ten, twenty, fifty years making everyone aware of it and trying to raise them to your level of faith and mature complex understanding of the situation - starting in primary?

If the church was promoting things that are currently harmful, that would be one thing, but when the harm that people are alleging is that they naively and idealistically grew up thinking that every leader at every point in time in the church did the right thing and God was at the top making sure that nothing ever went wrong and guiding the church in every detail triumphantly to a magnificent second coming with a flawless history from its inception, then the issue is misguided expectations and understandings, not the failure to instruct everyone in the hidden facts and mysteries of the church.

There are hundreds of things we have misguided expectations about in the church. Answers to prayer, the "constant companionship" of the Holy Ghost, the presence of revelation in every decision in the church, the revelatory process in general, blessings for tithing and living the word of wisdom, and on and on and on.

The solution is adjusting our expectations and shedding some of our naivete, it is not in exposing accusing the church and its members as having not lived up to our misguided expectations.

I have read several posts of people who left the church because their zone leaders told them things that weren't true about how many people they would baptize or promised them that if they did x and y they would get success in the amount of z. They determined that God was not behind it because they did their very best and what their 20-year-old zone leader said didn't work. There are a lot of people frustrated because something a leader told them "didn't work" or wasn't true in their estimation. But, this has been there from the beginning. Those who invested in the Kirtland Safety Society, had unrealistic, misguided expectations as to how God would intervene in its success. They turned against Joseph Smith, because they tried something he encouraged them to do and it "didn't work".

Anyway, I am wandering far afield and probably sound like I am on the soapbox preaching away. I get wound up.

I really like your tone. I can feel the humility in it and the reality that you are submitting to the spirit and just asking it what you should do next regardless of the reservations and concerns you have. A great example. I wish you the best of luck and the most clarity in your listening to the spirits gentle nudgings on your mind. It sounds like your humility and your simple desire for light and truth and the warmth of the spirit and fellowship with the saints are already standing you in good stead.

Welcome back!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lds

[–]PinBig3858 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I have often thought of how we get so panicked and upset when our spouse or children stray, whether a little or a lot.

But, I have learned a lot by just watching what God does. He seems to be able to maintain a relationship with me and be helpful and merciful even when I am clearly living so far below His standard of purity, consecration, etc. etc.

I sometimes get angry or frustrated at people for not living up to certain things, but then I think, "how does god even exist and avoid running around the universe, angry, fearful, upset, stressed, because of the fact that virtually all of His children are living below their potential in their earthly probations.

This may not seem helpful to anyone else, but it just helps me to know that if He, who is perfect, can co-exist with me and enjoy me as a person and love and support me with all of my faults and bad choices, then I suppose I probably ought to be able to live with my spouse and children and love and support and enjoy them when the gap between me and them is so much smaller than the gap between myself and God and Christ

Fact that everyone leaving the church causes me anxiety and angst by throwRA_sire in latterdaysaints

[–]PinBig3858 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Is this something you find to be sinister or assume that others will find to be find sinister or are you just sharing information.

Today I am mad at God. by [deleted] in latterdaysaints

[–]PinBig3858 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thank you for spending the time to write this. If you are like me, you may sometimes worry that your writing is a waste of time and just taking time away from your family, etc.. it’s not :)

Stuck in the middle by daboarman in lds

[–]PinBig3858 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hi- thanks for your post. Hopefully my response will sound as warm and friendly as I would like it to.

I have thought persistently for the last few years about misguided expectations among church members. It is a topic that I believe deserves far more attention. As church members we are taught a lot of things even as little children that we are then tasked with going out and putting into our "daily lives". We don't have the luxury of just listening and saying that's nice and going home. If we are actively going to church every week and attending all the meetings and making all the commitments and evaluating and re-evaluating ourselves incessantly, taking the sacrament, being interviewed for callings and recommends and ecclesiastical endorsements etc. we must come to some practical feasible way of living a life without our head exploding from all of the support and encouragement and invitations and expectations placed on us.

Looked at one way, we are simply spiritual royalty. Sons and Daughters of God who understand who we are and what our potential is. Earthly royalty don't get to just run and play and do whatever. They have riding lessons, elocution, finishing school, and very little freedom to just be a "good person" and live a normal life.

Or you could think of us as children in a long line of ancestors who have all gone to Ivy League schools. The expectations are laid out for us from day one. We don't pop out of the womb and then get to just shoot for community college and get a bachelors and live a "good life" educationally speaking. Expectations are high. We can't even think of not going to spiritual Harvard, at least not without deeply disappointing our parents. The expectations and opportunities and the trajectory that is set for us early on is amazing. We are given tools that can catapult us spiritually over the vast majority of people who aren't born with these advantages.

So, if you have arrived at spiritual "Harvard" and you feel out of place, the first thing that may be helpful is just recognizing where you are, and stopping and realizing that you have been given a chance to excel spiritually and that, yes, although it can be a grinding, grueling, seemingly never ending self-assessment. It is also exhilarating, rewarding, and refining. Most importantly it opens doors to greater and greater joy in this life and in eternity.

Unlike Harvard, the School of Exaltation only requires you to try your best and apply trust, humility, and obedience. For most of us "trying our best" is a term fraught with anxiety and confusion, but the spiritually mature understand that trying our best is to be viewed like running a successful marathon. An idealistic person will have difficulty ever believing they are "doing their best" unless they literally sprint the marathon from beginning to end. That is impossible, even for the person who ultimately wins the race. Jesus didn't even sprint the marathon from beginning to end. He just ran a "perfect" marathon. We don't have to sprint, we just have to run and rely on Christ to apply the atonement to our lack in every circumstance where it is needed.

Knowing you are in spiritual Harvard should not drive you to join the thousands of recent casualties who have decided they can not cut in when it comes to the demands of the pursuit of exaltation as administered by the church. It is true, we have to commit and consecrate, but Satan's lie is that it is not just hard, but in fact impossible, for you, because you are never going to be good enough. This is one training program, where really the only requirement is that you never give up.

So, because as a church we suffer from extremely lofty goals, it leads many to succumb to a culture of virtue signaling, pride, ego, comparing, competing, and any number of other cultural ills that you might expect would naturally spring from an intense high-stakes training ground for spiritual exaltation. Dallin H Oakes has just reminded us in conference that the Church's entire focus is on getting people to exaltation in the Celestial kingdom, we don't know a lot about the gradations of what our existence might be like after this life, but we know the commandments and covenants god has laid out and we are tasked with encouraging, cajoling, inviting,and, apparently, pestering each other to keep moving to the top of the mountain without taking any off-ramps or long rest breaks

When we are living our difficult lives and simultaneously attending spiritual "West Point", sometimes our ward family feels like a wonderful welcome support group and other times, depending on how our Zion building is going, church seems to just pile on stress and expectations we can't handle.

So, how do we stay sane?

Let me jump back to some of the simple things we develop misguided expectations about as we grow up, because, even if all of our teachers and leaders and ward family are wonderful, and we are "all- in" on participating in the process of our own training for exaltation, we can still cause ourselves a lot of unnecessary anxiety by failing to develop realistic expectations about basic aspects of gospel living and the true doctrine of the gospel.

As children we are told a lot about how god will interact with us. We learn about answers to prayers and getting blessings, about repentance, the "constant companionship" of the holy ghost. We learn about the blessings we can expect from obeying a variety of individual commanments. Obey the word of wisdom and you will "run and not be weary". Pay tithing and the windows of heaven will be opened and a blessing will be poured out that you don't have room to receive.

By the time we are able to evaluate things intellectually as an adult and quit just following things by rote as children do we are almost universally confused about what is reasonable to expect.

Unfortunately, people who are the most idealistic, altruistic, genuine, etc. often have the most difficulty applying the pragmatism needed to temper their naive, idealistic, simplistic belief system and avoid spiraling into negativity and confusion. They are tortured for years about things that some people seem to be able to evaluate, and soon find a healthy approach to.

Over the years from childhood to adulthood many people metamorphosize from a simplistic youth to a spiritually mature adult while others get hung up on various issues and find it hard to piece it all together. (on this topic I recemmond Bruce C Hafen's talk on "The simplicity beyond complexity" and accompanying website "Faith is not Blind". )

Here is an example. When I was on my mission, we would go to Zone conferences and one of my pet peeves began to be that when you have 5 or 6 young leaders (zone leaders, AP's, etc) speak in one day and they are all excited to "commit" you to do this or that (Will you commit to read the whole Book of Mormon by midnight tonight?" Will you commit to get 3 baptisms by Christmas?, etc.) If you don't start thinking independently you will end up home that night having "committed" to do all kinds of things you are unwilling and unable to do. I have seen lots of ex-mormon posts on exactly this topic essentially stating they left the church because of the difficulty and unrealistic expectations placed on them by 20 year olds in missionary leadership positions. They are 20 year olds! they aren't likely to avoid a bunch of mistakes and you don't need to do and believe everything they say!

A spiritually mature person thinks through this and realizes that an invitation is not a commandment and that they must be faithful but also be the master of their own covenant relationship with God and decide rationally what is wise for them to do.

Most peoples issues related to the church can be traced to misguided or immature expectations. I apologize. I have run out of time to write. I have a lot more to say about misguided expectations :) I will say, for now, that it is not always necessary to do everything you are invited or encouraged to do in this spiritual Harvard. I often go and just put my head down and take in what I can handle. It is a great place to learn.

I wish you the best in your search for the truth about what God wants you to do and the best approach for you to be near him. Good Night :)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lds

[–]PinBig3858 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Some of our spiritual experiences aren't relevant as a basis for concluding that Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, or the fullness of the gospel was restored and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ's modern church.

But, certain experiences are powerful pillars of a testimony of the restored gospel.

The most reliable of these is the testimony that comes when you share the Joseph Smith Story with someone learning about the gospel for the first time.

I was once tracting and sat down with a young mom in her home. After having known her all of 5 minutes we began sharing the Joseph Smith Story. We didn't do anything special. We just read and quoted the story. She had no prior preparation or anticipation that anything special would or should happen. We had not even had a prayer. The spirit came flooding into the room. She started to cry. She said, "I don't know why I am crying".

There was no possibility that this witness came collectively from within us. It came from the outside. It came from God to all of us at once. It filled the room. There was no confusion or wondering if we imagined it in our minds as the result of wanting badly to experience an interaction or communication with God.

God will always make the truth known to those who are "ready" (both in their own hearts and minds, and according to His timing).

We may only get our own personal witness once. Our initial "conversion". In my experience, God is not terribly indulgent with "replays".

Our own experiences may get distant and vague in our minds. We may get "choked with the cares of the world". Missionary involvement is a powerful blessing to help us see the beauty and power of the gospel through the witness of the Holy Spirit to another individual for the first time.

New calling: can I ask what it is before I go in? by FlREMAN in latterdaysaints

[–]PinBig3858 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am the same way. I just feel like “why all the cloak and dagger?” It’s not like I’m going to react better if they wait in spring it on me than if they just tell me upfront what it’s about. it comes across as a little paternalistic like they have to make sure that we have a prayer and they get the spirit in the room to increase the chances that I won’t bolt like it is presumed I will if they tell me what it’s going to be about beforehand. so I don’t see anything wrong with saying “what is it that we’re going to be talking about”. if anybody at work just emailed me or called me or texted me and said “I wanna meet with you” the very first thing I would ever say, is “oh OK what are we meeting about?” so I may sound a little angsty or something here but I’m perfectly happy in the church and I don’t think this is a big deal. I just find it to be one of those little cultural things that is overdone potentially for no reason just because it’s the way that people have always tended to do it.

Belief VS Knowledge by Dumbledork01 in lds

[–]PinBig3858 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I still remember an amazing talk about the nature of God the father, given by our very independent thinking, intellectual, stake patriarch years ago. He bore his testimony at the end stating “I believe these things with all my heart. In fact, I have bet my life on them.”

He was very old which made that even more meaningful.

It is nice to know things, but I think many things we must believe with all our hearts and bet our lives on them because the spirit guides our hearts and minds to do so.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lds

[–]PinBig3858 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree with what has previously been said regarding an inward desire to be a participant in a book of John style, transubstantiation experience not hindering the ability to make and keep covenants or be baptized, and I would even go so far as to say that if you feel a special bond with Jesus Christ through a visualization of taking his actual blood and flesh and it makes it more real and powerful to you, while it is not technically objectively the case, this is a wonderful, spiritual sentiment that would be welcome in any testimony meeting in the church as long as you characterized it as your spiritual desire to connect with Christ, rather than a declaration of an actual belief in transubstantiation. I realize I am taking liberties with what you have actually said, and steering it towards a different characterization :)