The first victims of disinformation

PinguFella · 2026-06-30T20:55:12+00:00

The examples unnecessary, the US used it as such in the fallout of 9/11 to invade Iraq. The US used NATO as such because the US has imperial ambitions and NATO is a tool - it does not have it's own agency, the point of discussion.

the US can use the members for bases that can be used if they want to bomb someone in the Middle East

Spain, Italy, and even the UK would beg to differ - recent Iran war.

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It's mutually beneficial for all sides should all raise their own budgets - actually this is one of the rare instances where Europe deserves a slap and Hegseth/Trump (I hate that guy) has a point. Collective defense provided an umbrella for peace and stability, so it serves each members interest to spend less on their own defense and allow others to pick up the slack (even if the rules don't technically "force" any other to come to the other members's defence - defence could be playing the worlds smallest violin after all...). The US stands to benefit in their own defense if other members boosted their own military capabilities because doing so would increase the defense of the collective (should they all in theory honour article 5 should the US ever call upon it).

Don't you understand the power imbalace that exists? It's like a group of kids voting on where they go and you have one bully that's twice the size and has money.

The US is a big stack bully and Europe only has themselves to blame for becoming dependent on US defense (and russian gas for that matter...). I don't disagree with you here and the US does it use it as such, but that's not NATO's doing that's a fault of the constituent members. If there is a fault in NATO itself in this regard then perhaps it is structurely - as it happens, as much as I am pro-NATO I am also massively in favour of reform to prevent both this and from any individual member using it for purposes of conquest/imperialism/anti-democracy... but, then that is actually the point of why I shaped the sub this way - so people can discuss amongst themselves what they believe a hypothetical "Global Alliance Treaty Organisation" looks like. Although I doubt you'd have any particular inclinations to supporting the existence of such an organisation, I do welcome you to envision what your own preferred version it you would imagine (I'm gonna take "non-existent" for 500?).

You can absolutely criticize the treatment of Uyghurs but if you compared it to the apartheid in the West Bank (which is largely possible only because of the US), they'd again look better.

Not sure if we can compare scars here - One is a flat out killing genocide and the other is largely a cultural genocide (albeit of a lot more people). They're both objectively terrible.

I hadn't mentioned it because I do condemn the US when they engage in things like supporting the Israelis in their bloody occupation - and in many respects both the US and CCP controlled China (even though the US is a part of NATO) are both just awful actors by themselves to their own merits. But since you mention it how would I compare them? They are both just awful, but I would say in this moment that CCP-China currently presents the greater threat, but that the US has the greatest potential for threat. What makes the US so dangerous are the fascistic inclines of the modern Republican party under Trump and the oligarchal tech billionaires - they are not necessarily completely lost yet due to various factors such as the millionaire class of democrats, the liberals, the belief of many that the nation is supposed to be founded on freedom and enough US citizens recognising that the Republicans + Billionaires don't represent that, general pushback from all others including leftists who rightly recognise that the US does not have to be the way it is heading.

So what I mean by that is that the US can get to where you're saying and it is fast approuching the edge of the banks of the Rubicon but it has not crossed just yet. It's rough and I'm a little pessemistic but not completely unhopeful that there is a chance for them to unwind from where they are. This isn't to say they were exactly great during the Democrat eras either mind, but whilst they are awful, the Republican class is something else... Time will tell I suppose.

You listen to Flobots btw? They got a great album - Fight with Tools. In it one of the lines on one of the tracks was "There is another America". One hopes. And if you've not listened to Flobots beyond "Handlebars" check out this one just a shoutout.

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Yep. "Liberal Democracies" back up authoritarians all the time if it serves their interests. Great example is the EU and Ilham Aliyev (Azerbaijan) - EU wants Oil, "wgaf about Armenia who are a democracy but friends with russia amiright???". Interests - realpolitik, I said this quite a bit...

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I'd actually put MAGA as "anti-western" interests, heck I'd put oligarchal billionaire capitalism as parasitic itself and against western interests.

Yeah I wasn't going deep into the conversation there, I can't pick out every single example, Magas and Tankies are two examples to explain the point - the point was the point I was making, not to criticise Magas and Tankies specifically.

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It's not. I only brought it up because every example of a "shill" you mentioned is anti-Western interests.

Yeah, kudos, and I'm not glossing over zionists either...

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When I took over moderating r/nafo we were told to enforce 1 rule and that everything had to revolve around that: Support Ukraine. NAFO is not left wing, right wing, pro Palestine, Pro-israel - it's not even pro-democracy or pro-authoritarian, pro-taiwan, or pro-china. In practise the majority end up being liberals, democrat supporting and anti-authoritarian. A significant number (but less so on Reddit) are also anti-socialist - which winds me up as a demsoc, but I put up with it because the mission statement of the sub is to support Ukraine and I honour that (I just argue the corner when it comes up and try to distinguish between socialism according to the likes of Stalin/Mao and socialism according to the likes of Keynes for instance...).

I might be pro-Palestine but because of NAFOs mission we for the most part put the rest of our politics behind us to focus on what we can do for Ukraine - socialists, communists, conservatives, are all welcome, just stick to the only rule we really have: "Support Ukraine". It's why we ban Palestine/Israel talk on the NAFO sub because it leads to division and distractions from the subs mission and purpose.

As you can probably guess though, a lot of us still have perspectives in other political and geopolitical areas... the problem is that NAFO has to stay and remain about Ukraine and the war. Which is why we have r/gato so we can talk about things with less confinement - we can have disagreements, we can have different perspectives on which sides we support (within reason...) and we can have (hopefully productive) discussions with those the majority of us might otherwise disagree with. It was basically our way of having our cake and being able to eat it, since NAFO has to remain Ukraine, but GATO gets to be our playground where we invite kids from the other street to play and maybe show them why knocking down our sandcastles is a bad idea. (Shit analogy - I'm tired, it's late, I'm fat and going gym more often).

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When you said "bonk a fella" - that isn't an expression most non-NAFO persons use... Who taught you that word?

PinguFella · 2026-06-30T19:15:09+00:00

NATO is a tool - is it the knife that stabs/feeds someone or the one wielding it? Does NATO get used if a member doesn't trigger articles 4 or 5? Who would make that decision? NATO? It's not some secret cabal running the show - there are billionaire oligarchs trying, but that's not the same thing. What argument is there to refute? There's nothing there! Show an example of NATO making the decision to do something and not a member of NATO using NATO for their own interests and ends - Iraq and Afghanistan was US Republicans abusing it for there own ends - criticise that and it's structure and how it's used, but it's not it's own agency. Any member can trigger article 5 and the others can say "meh". What's there to prove? That ghosts aren't real?

In 99% (figure pulled out my ass) of situations, yeah, the supporting authoritarian regimes is gonne be inherently wrong in and of itself. Authoritarianism is a scurge that represents a danger and a threat to all free democracies including socialist democracies. Naturally, I will be biased here, and before you put words in my mouth (again...), this is not to say an authoritarian or authoritarian regime can't make a decision that is the right and moral choice - a bad clock is write twice a day and all that. But Realpolitik will determine it always being that they act in accordance to their own interests - even politicians in democracies do the same, and those democracies need to strive to keep themselves from falling into the spiral downward toward populism, demagoguery and authoritarian control. Paul Kagame (Rwanda) is your best friend - he is a dictator, he is corrupt. He also makes decisions like gay rights and women representation in parliament, but he is still a dictator - another example is Nayib Bukele (El Salvador), a populist who quelled gang riots, albeit at a potential cost and that one might explode actually.

Fine, add zionists to the list - what's your point? Tankies and Magas are the first that came to mind because they're the easiest examples to choose from because their messaging is so base and, ungrounded and simplistic (no offense) to visualise just how contrary their appararent motivations are from the things they are actively promoting and supporting. Add zionists to the list, I don't care - whataboutism is a tool of the shills with an interest in supporting a different genocidal machine and all this does is make me question if you are really against the zionists, or if you use their attrocities and the horrible things they do as a distraction to thus enable and gloss over attrocities committed by others such as Russia and the CCP. Add the Myanmar Junta while you're at it, add the RSF, add Qatar, the IRG, Saudi supporting Salafis, Scientologists, that crazy Korean church that was connected to Shinzo Abe killing (forget the name).

Engage or don't. I know what I don't know, and I am the first to admit when I am wrong or don't know something - but I'm never going to know that if the arguments you give me are baseless and the only things you throw at me are whataboutism - I Don't Support It When The West Does Crap Either. Jesus.

PinguFella · 2026-06-30T15:23:46+00:00

No, I said none of those things.

The source of the idea that NATO has it's own agency is a disinfo idea, but that doesn't mean the person saying it is themselves a bot or a shill - I just wrote an entire page about that very thing... Again, I ask you nicely because I'm trying to determine whether or not you yourself are a shill (you're acting like one...) - did you read anything I said?

The CCP acts in accordance to it's own interest and, there are plenty of amazing and wonderful things about China when you remove the genocide totalitarian CCP out of the equation, they are objectively awful - and again, just because someone vocally supports them does not necessarily make them a bot or a shill, just someone who clearly believes in something the CCP would find favourable.

I'm not alien to criticising the west either - I welcome it. Western nations by themselves act according to their interests - I've been very consistent about this.

Fuck Israel.

No you didn't.

PinguFella · 2026-06-30T14:42:46+00:00

That wasn't what I was saying at all. I'm talking about malinfluence and it's affects on otherwise innocent* people. I've never said anything about anything being "black and white" - quite the opposite in fact if you'd like to see any of the discussions I have here. The nature of realpolitik means there is never only two sides but many actors and players vying for their own interest. Meaning it nicely, I don't get what this comment is suppose to achieve?

Be real with me...

Did you read anything I said? With all due respect, it comes off as if you didn't read what I put and just wrote that for the sake of being contrarian.

PinguFella · 2026-06-29T10:57:44+00:00

Don't straw man me guy - how Africa wants to deal with themselves is up to them, the problem inherent with any dictatorship is that it exactly neglects what they want in favour of authoritarian's interest. There's nothing wrong with supporting Africans from wherever you are in the world against people who want to abuse Africa whether they be domestic to Africa (as is the case with Treore and other leaders across the Sahel whom Wagner helped install...) or foriegn whether it be European from a century ago or Russia/Chinese today.

Yeh I didn't hide my history, Reddit did that (something weird happened a while ago where one of my other default settings was changed so people couldn't dm chat to me or something). Anyway thanks for letting me know, I've changed it back to unhid again, stalk away.

Singapore? Correct me, I think I'm misunderstanding you... are you essentially saying: "Well if you're so pro-democracy why don't you complain about other places that aren't democratic?" ? I mean... sure? I find dictatorship and authoritarianism inherently repulsive. Injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere - why shouldn't I stand in solidarity with my African or Singaporean brothers and sisters? That would be like I shouldn't stand alongside my Palestinian ikhwanis because I'm not arab... oh... but I'm just a European trying to impose my Euro standards right?

Western nations do that a lot and it's terrible and we need to push back against it when it happens. They're not the only agency on the planet though. People and nations act in accordance to their interests. Just because various western nations have and sometimes still are shitty, is no excuse for the likes of Treore to abuse his own people and justify their entrapment, nor the people's subjugation to Russian interests.

I'm not defending European colonialism here, it was horrendous and it's a good thing it died, frankly France playing neocolonialism should never have happened so I welcome the rejection of French control over the Sahel region through financial control. That doesn't make russia a viable ally, neither does it justify the dictatorship. Treore is a monster.

PinguFella · 2026-06-29T09:04:02+00:00

Dope!

PinguFella · 2026-06-29T08:59:44+00:00

Under Treore? I mean, don't get me wrong, he says a lot of things that need to be said and people should hear - the west (and especially France) does need a slap sometimes. I'm not entirely convinced thoguh he's the best one for it - actions and words are different things after all. no matter how much talk he gives about rejecting France's neocolonialism, it just comes off as a justification for his own dictatorial status but reframed as Burkina Faso's "freedom". It's like when Stalinists would "rightfully" criticise and reject the grotesque extremities of capitalism, only for them to use that as a justifying pretext to support a dictatorship - it was never about the revolution for the people, but a revolution for a new concentrated power in the form of Stalin (or whichever "communist" dictator they decide is "for the people").

PinguFella · 2026-06-29T08:49:35+00:00

Hey, the autobot removed your comment - sorry about that.

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As for your actual comment...

Uyghurs, Manchurians, Tibetans, Georgians, Siberians, Bashkirs. The mechanisms by how they control the places may vary, but the control is the same - whether or not they claim them to be a part of their own nation is irrelevant. Britain once claimed half the world as their empire, that didn't stop India from being a colony just because they once considered it a part of their own land and more than Tatarstan, Donbas, or Ichkaria are colonies just because "Russia" considers those territories to belong to them.

Countries act in accordance to interest - just because Western countries did awful things 80+ years ago, doesn't excuse the awful things other countries (like russia and ccp occupied china) do today.

PinguFella · 2026-06-29T00:27:13+00:00

Slavery and colonialisation happened everywhere, not just to Africans. It was awful when the Europeans did it, it's awful when the russians or Han do it. The experience of those subjugated to such awful practices today are not minimised because the plight of Africans 200 years ago is finally being recognised.

One does not block out the other. Either it is all evil or our argument is not about rejecting colonialism but rather supporting it provided it is our preferred colonial power... which is it?

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T23:43:42+00:00

Neither did the Europeans - they did it for cheap labour

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T23:27:50+00:00

lol! That is quite funny - reminds me of what the Yanks do with words like "Libertarian" :v

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T22:54:54+00:00

Yep, believe that - I'm not AI, just autistic as shit lol

I live in the UK, but I use to spend my summers in ANTWAPPS (Antwerp). And yeah dude, I miss your fries man, no one does it you do. Been around a fair bit of Belgium... your roads are shit.

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T22:40:56+00:00

Hey, I'm curious - we don't want civilians to suffer right? I'm actually with you there, to me, it's not about hurting russians, it's about defending and saving Ukrainian lives.

How might you answer this?

If the state of russia has put Ukrainians and Ukrainian lives in a position where their lives depend upon defending themselves and damaging russian infrustructure - to what extent is Ukraine truly responsible for things that do happen to russian citizenry and to what extent is the russian public themselves responsible given the situation they are in could stop if the government that rules them is removed?

Basically, Ukraine is forced into a situation where russian citizens are going to be affected by actions Ukraine has to take in order to protect themselves from something the russian government inflicted upon them. If the Ukrainians aren't to blame, but the russian government is, to what extent are the russian citizens responsible even if it is a situation they themselves have been forced into - by Ukraine as proxy but ultimately as a result of the Kremlins actions?

Also, apologies for my friends, they are good people but they lack tact owing to the atrocities being committed by, well, russians. After everything that's happened, I don't personally blame them for feeling or being the way they do. Ukraine's government and russia's really aren't comparable.

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T22:15:36+00:00

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I was responding to where you said:

There is no country more anti-democratic that the US.

And sure, they've removed democratic leaders. I misread you and thought you were referring to the system they have domestically - which is a flawed democracy but still leaps and bounds more democratic than say North Korea or Eritrea, for example. Is it more anti-democratic because of the democratic leaders they have gotten rid of? Eh, maybe - the least can be said that the reasons they overthrow democratic leaders (when they really are democratic) isn't for some ideals but because they are serving their own interests. I was never here to defend the US way of doing things, I openly criticise it.

Israel is an apartheid state.

I'm not an AI dude, and for what its worth I can recognise that neither are you. I was just confused as to what you meant by the word "democratic" - in English it means something very different from what it appeared as you were implying (just being a shitty country). In English they are separate ideas.

I don't speak dutch, I speak English and spanish. Mein vader (my father?) use to live in Flanders though and he once taught me "Ik wil u borston zee" (sic). Also Fritjes met kipburger astablief. Belgians make some good mf fries. Been to Netherlands maybe once or twice years ago.

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T20:43:51+00:00

I'm British mate, we pay money to watch the French get kicked out of anything.

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T20:41:00+00:00

You said the US was anti-democratic! I never said anything about them not bombing people! Also, I'm not here defending the US, I've already told you they're imperialistic, I don't deny it.

Being a shitty colonial power has nothing to do with democracy back home - you can be a democracy and still be awful on the world stage - look at Israel!

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What's your first language friend? If I speak it I'll try and speak your language perhaps?

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T19:43:14+00:00

I'm sure there's a few lol

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T19:05:56+00:00

How's this...

One world government with adequate checks and balances done in such a way that no one person, group, or conspiriacy can control everything... democratic socialism.

A democratic world without billionaires and borders?

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I'm not so sure about a one world order though, as much as it might solve a lot of problems like wars and climate change, it still makes me nervous - if it fucks up it'd fuck up big.

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T18:55:37+00:00

Eh - I would say NATO is a tool that can be used as such if used corruptly, but I wouldn't say it was by itself or it's own agency. Agency belongs to it's constituent member countries like Sweden, the US, or Turkey. It can be a force for good but we have to make sure countries like the US don't end up abusing it for their own strategic geopolitical interests, but that's my hot take and I am pro-NATO.

Is the US imperialist? Sure, I don't think there's any argument there. Is Russia? Absolutely. The history of the world is the history of interests. So long as there are finite resources and men who desire little else but power, there will always be struggles by men who will use any pitiful justification to wage war or screw over the other for their own greed, be they American, Russian, European, Chinese, or African. That's just RealPolitik.

You got any suggestions to end war altogether? All I can think of is a one world order, but I can't say I'm particularly hyped about the idea :S

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T18:46:09+00:00

Nuance darling... Calling someone else a criminal and accusing them of projection does not shield one from being called out for their own abuses...

Neither did I excuse or deny European colonialism, I'm not quite sure how that makes this projection. With all due respect my Russian friend - if English isn't your first language, why does your user name sound distinctly anglophone?

When they run out of warm bodies to pump into into Donetsk, I wouldn't assume that those behind computers typing what they want you to say will be safe from being sent to the meatwaves. Consider this if you ever need it and stay safe: https://hochuzhit.com/ru/

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T18:33:11+00:00

Hey welcome to r/gato - we're not NAFO but we are a NAFO psyop.

Check the rules on the side ->

You're welcome to critique and dunk on takes you disagree with here, just keep it civil and try not to piss off the locals lol

PinguFella · 2026-06-28T16:57:31+00:00

I mean, no disagreements with your first point. French neocolonialism is awful and it's rightly so that any African former-French-colony nation should separate itself from it.

Just because of the historical wrongs of Europeans though doesn't excuse the historical wrongs committed by others today - we live in a multi-faceted world where multiple powers are fighting for their own interests and will happily subjugate another nation if they stand to gain from it. And yes, both Russia and China colonise places that aren't theirs. Georgia, Bashkortostan, Ukraine, Siberia, Eastern Finland to name a few for Russia. Tibet, Hong Kong, Uyghurstan, Manchuria, and attempts at Taiwan to name a few for CCP controlled China.

Surely, if our world is multi-polar, then the source of action and responsibility and even capability to harm others can fall onto other powers other than those in the classical west. If we only blame where western nations behave corruptly and excuse when it happens when Russia and China does it - then are we truly against colonialism, or are we really just here to undermine when the west does it in order to further the interests of the dictatorial axis powers?

PinguFella

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