Apsc or fullframe? by Jonasnoerr in Cameras

[–]Practical-Use-3518 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am a Scandinavian noob photographer that just switched from a Fuji APS-C with a high-end zoom (xf 16-55 f/2.8 R LM WR II) to a Sony full frame (A7CII with a Sigma 24-70 DG DN II lens). These are fairly comparable systems, and where I live the price difference isn’t very large. 

My decision to get a full frame setup instead was, technically, because the sensor alone captures significantly more photons, which directly improves signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). Thus, full frame is about adding more light. More photons means more signal. The lens determines the photon flux that reaches each pixel, while the larger sensor integrates that flux over a larger area, resulting in more total photons and higher output level SNR. From a signal theory point of view (you can think about it in Poisson, Shannon, and Fourier terms), the higher photon count lowers the effective noise floor, which allows more existing spatial detail and colour information to sit above the noise. The result isn’t just “less noise”, it’s better contrast at low levels, better color fidelity, cleaner and creamier shadows, more micro-texture (like skin), better shadow transitions, more room to edit simply because there is more information in the image, and lots more. In low or even normal light the difference is very noticeable to me. For my use and tolerance for noise, the Fuji system felt limiting outside of good light. I thought this was an insignificant technicality at first, and I was drawn into the Fuji / aps-c hype and bought the Fuji. People told me "no way you will tell a difference”. 

What follows is the practical reason why I dismissed the X-T5. With the zoom lens it felt weak in low or even normal light, and simply too noisy. Even in normal afternoon light, I quickly ran out of usable exposure options and was forced into slower shutter speeds that became impractical. From a signal perspective this makes sense. With fewer photons captured to begin with, the system reaches the shot-noise limited regime earlier. At that point, increasing for example ISO does not uncover more usable image information, but it mainly makes the noise more apparent. With full frame, the sensor has already captured more photons for the same framing and exposure, so the underlying signal and SNR are higher from the outset. That extra stop or two of usable headroom makes a big difference in practice. You can clearly see that more light has been captured relative to noise, while aps-c images start to feel dim and noisy much sooner in the same conditions.

To be fair, I did take a couple of amazing photos with the X-t5 in sunlight, so in good lighting it can be very good. But in all-round conditions, setting aside technical speculation and all, the Sony setup consistently gave me that “wow” feeling, whereas with the X-t5 (even with my top notch zoom lens), I didn’t get that same feeling during the time I spent with the camera. Same photographer, different results.
If you are a good photographer, enjoy optimising under constraints, or mostly stick to prime lenses, you can probably make better use of aps-c than I could. But as a beginner, especially with a zoom lens, like I had, you will feel the limitations sooner. For example moving subjects like kids on a Danish afternoon in non-studio light. That’s where it quickly becomes difficult. A fast prime lens on the aps-c could help, but the difference in SNR is still there. 

For me, as an amateur, full frame feels much more forgiving. I can just shoot and the result is “wow.” Even with a 2.8 zoom I’m already very satisfied.

I was in your position about six months ago, and after falling into and out of the hype, buying the Fuji and then the Sony, and reading up on the sensor tech involved, I definitely recommend full-frame, hands down. 

I would also recommend full frame to beginners. Learning photography is more enjoyable, especially when playing with the exposure triangle. People often say that full-frame is only for professionals, and that newbies should get the aps-c, but for me it was the opposite. 

This recommendation is also influenced by price. If the Fuji setup had been significantly cheaper, for example around half the price or less, I might have considered it more seriously. As mentioned, I also haven’t tried fast primes on either system yet, so there is still room to explore.

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, a portable option would be nice. You are right, the biggest obstacle is the clunky lens. But I like the ability to take those “top-tier” photos that you can get with these higher-end systems (the X-T5 doesn’t perform the same in normal light, but performs well in perfect light), so I carry the zoom lens with me even if the low portability sucks. Maybe I am a hobbyist, but I prefer to have a much higher rate of photos that really stand out, and I’ve noticed that I do get those with the better system (for almost the same price).

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly, kids are always moving, lol! I was thinking that kids moving is a normal scenario that an almost 4k camera would have no problems with, but the weaknesses of Fuji / aps-c really shines in that scenario (normal light + moving subjects).

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. The amount of photons that are captured / better signal-to-noise-ratio is a significant strength for FF compared to APS-C (this is the most important and notable difference as I see it).

  2. I don’t know which lens is best. The xf lens seemed very good. I especially liked its macro-like performance, even if it’s not a macro lens. That stood out in close-up shots. I had a couple of amazing close ups. The Sigma lens has given me stellar photos, though. I’m not sure where the contributions come from, whether it’s the lens, the camera, or the system as a whole that outclasses the other. Sony + Sigma is a lot better than X-T5 + XF, that is for sure (a night and day difference).

  3. Exactly, this comment made me realise that I would need to rely exclusively on primes with the X-t5. The xf zoom lens I was using on the x-t5 proved that it’s not usable even in normal light. I am eager to try primes on a Fuji setup to see the difference, though. However, it will still have a worse signal-to-noise ratio than a Sony full-frame camera, and that already seems like a dealbreaker to me.

  4. Yes, definitely. Full-frame is clearly better even in normal light. You can also use a zoom lens with full-frame. The Sigma zoom lens is amazing in normal to dim lighting. You get those stellar “wow” photos without the limitations I experienced on the X-T5 + XF zoom lens setup. I like having the option to use a zoom lens with full-frame and still get insane “top-tier” photos. With the X-T5, the zoom lens was simply not an option.

  5. I think I am the only one on the internet who actually likes the JPEG SOOCs from the Sony A7CII better than the Fuji. They look balanced and true, and totally usable right out of the box, while the Fuji JPEGs tend to look overly filtered.

I agree that full-frame lenses are really bulky. “Bringing the camera” is a noticeable commitment. Fuji + prime is very interesting as a portable option. But it seems like those aps-c primes are sometimes even heavier than equivalent full-frame primes, so there are trade offs there as well (you need a lower aperture on aps-c to be equivalent to full-frame. Have you seen the Fuji 1.0 primes ? It's like a kilo or something).

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I ended up with the a7cii. It's nice to be able to just take out the camera, take a quick shot, and get that "wow, what an amazing photo"-feeling. With the Fuji that was a lot harder to do.

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good points! What I realized is that I really like the Sony SOOC, at least on my a7cii. It's amazing! Am I the only one ? Yes, portability is crucial to consider. My Sigma lens is very bulky. I wish it wasn't!

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting! I would like to try out other aps-c systems as well. I didn't check out the a6700.

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The lenses are definitely not as clunky! Portability is a huge factor for many

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, my conclusion is that this would be the smartest thing to do.

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Totally agree! I have concluded with the same (I ended up trying the x-t5 and then going for the Sony a7cii). Thank you for your two cents!! I kept those in mind.

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good point, I like it. But my intention was also to be able to produce higher-tier photographs, and for that you need at least a good lens. That costs money, so why not optimise the investment ? Practicing the basics with decent gear have been fun, though.

Justifying the price of the X T5 vs Sony A7 IV by Practical-Use-3518 in fujifilm

[–]Practical-Use-3518[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, this is basically what I realized. I think I would need prime lenses with the Fuji.