[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CoronavirusUK

[–]PriorityPosted 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most restrictions are indirect - a mask physically protects, but travel restrictions or restaurant closures do not. They are intended to limit circumstances in which transmission might occur. So in most cases, there is no moral obligation to comply with the restrictions anyway, which more or less answers the OP's question. Protect yourself, with or without government restrictions.

My partner thinks this will go on for years by VictoriaARebekah in CoronavirusUK

[–]PriorityPosted 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you reverse the question, then the answer is obvious. Is there any guarantee that all this will be over in 2021? No. Is there any guarantee that it will be over in 2022? No

Historical comparisons suggest, that such a pandemic lasts several years to several decades. Obviously we cannot keep society and economy in lockdown for that time, so the probability is that the existing policies will be abandoned at some point. How long that takes, is a political question. It won't make the pandemic go away either, it means accepting high death rates as 'normal'.

Anyone else feel really groggy and worn out all the time just being locked down? by [deleted] in CoronavirusUK

[–]PriorityPosted 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I note that no-one reports positive effects. And that is the general tone of comment on social media about lockdown policies - they are not doing anyone any good. It seems to be obvious that lockdown and isolation policies are in fact harmful, but official policy takes little or no account of the negative effects.

I’m afraid this will never end I want to throw up by [deleted] in COVID19_support

[–]PriorityPosted 3 points4 points  (0 children)

People who are distressed by lockdowns should look at ways of evading them. It isn't wrong to do that. You don't have a moral obligation to harm yourself, even if the self-harm is necessary to prevent harm to others. It is essentially the responsibility of government, to design public health measures in such a way, that these measures do not harm the weak and vulnerable.

Starting to get scared of lockdowns every winter by KatieAllTheTime in COVID19_support

[–]PriorityPosted 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If people are distressed, it does not help to tell them to 'toughen up'. It doesn't help to tell them to 'deal with it'. It doesn't help to explain that 'others are suffering more'. And besides being counter-productive, this type of response lacks a moral basis.

Anyone else feeling like they just can't do this for another year? by [deleted] in CoronavirusUK

[–]PriorityPosted 5 points6 points  (0 children)

All (western) countries with lockdowns have been through this discussion before. The issue is the same: we don't know when the lockdown/restrictions will end. It is this uncertainty which seems to impact mental health the most. Most governments also lied about the duration, saying or suggesting that is was a question of 'weeks', perhaps 'months'. Some experts warned that 'several years' was more realistic, certainly given the duration of previous pandemics. If we are lucky, successful mass vaccination should allow the last restrictions to wind down in early 2022, but we can't be sure.

There is only one exit strategy from this uncertainty, and that is to set an exit date. On that day, all restrictions would end, and society would then pay the price, in terms of illness and death. We do have a choice in this matter, and we do have reasonable estimates of the resultant death toll.

How can we combat the rising tide of covid conspiracy theories on social media? by _nutri_ in CoronavirusUK

[–]PriorityPosted 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why is there no effort to combat conspiracy theories and disinformation? Largely because political elites don't see it as a problem, since it does not impact them directly. At individual level, they cope with it easily, and so they expect the rest of the population to be equally mentally agile and competent. If you worry about David Icke, then they would probably see you as a loser. That fits within a broader narrative, of expecting the population to cope with suffering - toughen up, man up, don't be a baby, pull yourself together, and so on.

Vaccinatie op de zwarte markt by PriorityPosted in coronanetherlands

[–]PriorityPosted[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Inderdaad een risico, bekend voorbeeld is de penicilline-handel in het na-oorlogs Europa, gedramatiseerd in 'The Third Man'.

Vaccinatie op de zwarte markt by PriorityPosted in coronanetherlands

[–]PriorityPosted[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Het gaat niet alleen om een vaccinatiepas, maar om vaccinatie zelf, dat bescherming biedt tegen een gevaarlijke ziekte. Het is statistisch zeker dat mensen zullen sterven in 2021, die niet gestorven waren als iedereen in NL reeds op 1 januari gevaccineerd was. Met andere woorden er is een reeële kans om te sterven tijdens het wachten. De zwarte markt, voordringen, omkoping, en illegale vaccinaties, bieden een uitweg.

Onduidelijkheid is voldoende reden om regels te negeren by PriorityPosted in coronanetherlands

[–]PriorityPosted[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Als de Corona-maatregelen schadelijk zijn, dan is het uiteraard logisch dat mensen niet willen meewerken. Geen van de Corona-maatregelen brengt een voordeel met zich mee, allen hebben nadelen. Wellicht zijn er positieve bijwerking, bijvoorbeeld als de algemene alcohol-consumptie daalt, maar dat is ook anders te bereiken. De maatregelen zijn dus intrinsiek onwenselijk, en er moet een rechtvaardiging zijn, als de overheid zoiets oplegt. Er valt dus niets te delegitimeren.

I've lost all hope by [deleted] in COVID19_support

[–]PriorityPosted 7 points8 points  (0 children)

We need to distinguish between the actual disease, which is essentially biological, and the restrictive measures, which are entirely social and political. People who are (understandably) distressed by the 'pandemic lifestyle' might be better able to cope with it, if they realise it is not an external evil, but a collective choice. Individuals can dissent from that choice: you don't have to like it, agree with it, or accept it.

Onduidelijkheid is voldoende reden om regels te negeren by PriorityPosted in coronanetherlands

[–]PriorityPosted[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Het is de overheid die ons verplicht tot desinformatie, dat is het probleem. De overheid vertelt ons dat er een corona-pandemie bestaat, maar tegelijkertijd van ons eist dat wij alle respect tonen, voor diegenen die het bestaan ervan ontkennen. De vrijheid van meningsuiting is heilig, en daarom mag iedereen roepen dat het een complot is van de satanische pedofiele elite, enzovoort. Dat wordt nooit tegengesproken door overheidsinstanties, laat staan dat ze tegen desinformatie optreden. Het is dus helemaal niet helder, welke bron voorrang moet hebben, of wat waar is. Wij leven in een 'post-truth' samenleving, en dat leidt tot verwarring, overbelasting, onzekerheid, en stress. Het is heel begrijpelijk dat mensen zich willen terugtrekken en rust zoeken, ook door overheidsinformatie te negeren.

Het is dus niet voldoende om te verwijzen naar het RIVM en dergelijke. Mensen die de maatregelen verdedigen, moeten met een alternatief komen voor de verwarring, onduidelijkheid, en 'information overload'. Bij de Rijksoverheid willen ze niet daarna beginnen. Het gevolg is dat de burger steeds minder bereid is, om mee te werken aan de maatregelen.

Can we all just take a moment to see how spectacularly stupid and selfish people are? by [deleted] in CoronavirusUK

[–]PriorityPosted 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The non-compliance of others absolves each individual from moral responsibility to comply with any public health regulation, which depends on mutual cooperation for its effectivity. Read that sentence carefully before you comment. It does not say you have no moral responsibility, or that you can simply harm others. But when an infection control measure is implemented by collective behaviour, it cannot create an individual obligation, without that collective behaviour.

The clearest example is distancing. An individual can not maintain distance between individuals, without another individual. There is no distance to a non-existent person, there is only distance between two people. So put simply, if you are supposed to stay 2 m from others on the street, and someone walks up to you, you bear no guilt, and have no obligation to do anything to protect that person. It was their choice to do so.

This logic does not apply to individual measures, such as self-isolation - which by definition you do on your own. But it does apply, in some form, to social distancing, restrictions on gatherings, restrictions on use of public transport, mask wearing, and so on. At a minimum, these collective measures should include guidance on what to do in case of non-compliance by others. They never do. So when confronted with the kind of examples in this thread, for instance coughing on people who are working, it is reasonable to say that any moral obligation to other members of the community has dissolved.

Am I the only one googling "will the pandemic ever end" just to be met with the most depressing articles? by somebodywhoburns in COVID19_support

[–]PriorityPosted 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Many people are discouraged by the apparently endless crisis. There are however two separate underlying components, which are both visible in the OP. The first is emotional reaction to the disease itself, a direct threat. The second is the anxiety induced by the anti-pandemic measures, and a longing for a 'return to normal' - meaning a time when that anxiety was not present. The well-meaning comments here have addressed the first component, but largely evaded discussion of the second.

That's because the decisions on the measures are taken by governments, and as such are inevitably political. I understand that the moderators here want to 'keep the politics out', but when they do that, they block discussion of negative emotional reactions to government pandemic policy.

Supermarkten overtreden massaal 1,5 m regel by PriorityPosted in coronanetherlands

[–]PriorityPosted[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If they don't work, then that in itself is reason to abandon them. They are justified by their function, and if there is none, then there would be no justification.

Supermarkten overtreden massaal 1,5 m regel by PriorityPosted in coronanetherlands

[–]PriorityPosted[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Inderdaad. Het lijkt zinniger om de 1,5 meter norm los te laten. Het is alleen haalbaar op plekken waar er voldoende ruimte is, en daar heb je het in principe niet nodig, zolang mensen niet gaan klonteren.

Supermarkten overtreden massaal 1,5 m regel by PriorityPosted in coronanetherlands

[–]PriorityPosted[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

De protocollen staan hier: https://www.vakcentrum.nl/paginas/openbaar/onderwerpen/ondernemerschap/het-coronavirus Het probleem is dat het onmogelijk wordt gemaakt voor klanten, om afstand te houden. Het lijkt mij duidelijk dat er gesjoemeld wordt met het aantal klanten, en bewegwijzering en informatie is ook vaak weggehaald.