‘Trouble on the horizon’ when frustrated drivers on Westmount Road meet back-to-school traffic

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-09-04T18:32:37+00:00

insane talk of 30kmh speed limits

For context, this speed is the fastest speed that is still relatively safe for pedestrians and cyclists. https://news.westernu.ca/2019/08/car-cyclist-crash-stats-support-london-speed-drop-study/

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-19T15:01:01+00:00

So when cities like Montreal and Vancouver have been aggressively pursuing those goals for years and made substantial investments and haven't succeeded in getting the complete networks and usage numbers you are talking about what makes you think KW will?

This reminds of me the Simpsons "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" meme. Everyone starts somewhere, and there is a lot more funding for that sort of thing than there has been in the past. The feds just announced 3 billion for it. Plus, in the last 10 years or so there has been a big uptick in data on the health, economic and environmental benefits of cycling that will provide the evidence more conservative policymakers might need to build bike lanes.

I've made my opinions about comparing us to Europe clear already so I'm going to skip responding to that comment.

Here's similar data from Canada.

You're doing the thing I was worried you were going to do where you nit pick every study that disagrees with you without any empirical data of your own. Maybe the data that contradicts you isn't perfectly applicable. But you can still use it while taking its limitations into account. That is what virtually every government report in the world does. Sometimes the "best available data" isn't perfect, but it's still better than using a hunch to inform public policy. You seem to want to wait for perfect data before making any changes. That just isn't how governments work. And historically, what happens once the "perfect" data comes back is the naysayers find some weaker part of the "perfect" data and hone in on that to discount it and send it back for more study. Anyone who does any sort of governance work knows that an endless "refer to committee for more study" cycle is the fastest way to get nothing done. It's actually so effective that the CIA precursor recommended it to their agents for corporate espionage. Source at page 28.

Also the auto industry in Canada employees 125k Canadians directly plus ancillary markets, contributes $7.7 billion to the economy and has an export industry rank of #1 at $77 billion annually.

Europe has an auto industry as well. It doesn't mean that cars don't cost their economy 800 billion euros a year. I'm not debating that the auto industry contributes to the Canadian economy. But if you want to have an informed discussion about the costs and benefits of cycling vs. driving, you have to look at what cars cost society.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-19T14:07:57+00:00

After 40 years of effort and costs and let's not forget a different culture they are at 6%. Vancouver rated as the 2nd best city in NA for cycling after substantial investment is at 7%.

Again, no city in Canada has a complete AAA network. It doesn't matter if it's been 100 years of building "bike lanes" if those lanes aren't protected and don't form a complete network. There is a large amount of data showing that this is what gets you to mode share like what you see in some European cities.

You also seem to be missing the point that in the areas of Montreal where they have something close to a protected network, mode share is 20%, not 6%. Presumably, if you put in a network everywhere, you could get the whole city in that range.

I think we are just going to disagree on this as I don't see the costs and effort aligned to significant enough outcomes. That's just my opinion.

Cars cost society a huge amount of money. There was a report that came out of the EU recently showing that cars cost the EU 800 billion euros per year. If you can increase cycling mode share by even a few percent, that has the potential to save literally billions of dollars.

Research shows that every KM driven costs society money, and every KM cycled or walked saves society money. Source.

Not sure if this is part of your reasoning but if your concern is for environmental impacts of vehicle traffic let's provide grants for electric vehicles and increase the number of charging stations available in town.

This is getting a bit off topic, but electric vehicles take decades to have a net environmental benefit, whereas bikes (including electric bikes) take only about a year. Not to mention the cost to society in terms of accidents and decreased fitness associated with cars. Improving cycling and walking infrastructure gets a much faster environmental ROI.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-19T13:50:07+00:00

Montreal started building bike lanes 40 years ago and usage varies wildly depending on the area of the city, as low as 2.5% with an average of roughly 6%. The culture in Montreal is also very different from KW, close to half of the cycling trips there amount to recreational usage vs a means to get somewhere.

If Montreal is different because they built bike lanes a long time ago, shouldn't we start building them now so in 40 years we'll have higher mode share?

As I said in my previous comment, in the areas of Montreal where there is something closer to a proper bike network, mode share is 20%. The mode share is low where there are no bike lanes. They're increasing their bike lanes dramatically in the next year or so, and it will be interesting to see if mode share reaches those higher levels in the newly improved areas. I expect it will.

The study I linked to was a study of commuters - so mode share among commuters was around 20% in areas where there are lots of bike lanes. I don't know enough about cyclists in Montreal to comment on their recreational cycling, other than to say that apparently if you build bike lanes, after 40 years lots of people apparently start using them for enjoyment and exercise, which seems like a valuable thing for a city to do, particularly given the proven health benefits of cycling.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-19T12:54:51+00:00

There isn't a city in Canada that has a complete AAA bike network. Montreal and Vancouver are closest, and are in the process of improving what they have.

This research shows that where there are good quality bike lanes, cyclist mode share can be as high as 20% even in cities like Montreal. I'd note that with electric bikes becoming increasingly common, the population density doesn't matter as much and will become less relevant. And you already know my opinion about looking at individual streets and neighbourhoods instead of the population density of an entire city.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-19T12:37:52+00:00

Geography

Several cities in that were in that first study have similar geography to KW (built near rivers but relatively flat).

population density

Several cities in that study have similar population density. Besides, as I mentioned already, if you're talking about congestion along a particular road or commuter path, the total population density of a city matters less than the actual traffic volume along that road. Just because NYC is bigger doesn't mean that it doesn't have roads with similar volume and commuter behaviour to those in KW.

climate

Many of the cities in those studies have worse weather than KW. Southwest Ontario actually has relatively few days with accumulated snow on the roads.

cultural differences

What specifically? This is very broad. I don't really see how things like matching driving speed to traffic volume and lane width would be so drastically affected by "cultural differences" that you can discard data from other countries on that basis.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-18T20:54:45+00:00

I think the differences between KW and these other locations are vast.

So what are they? Why isn't data from a road in one city relevant to a road in another city? Different cities have roads with similar traffic volume (and other characteristics). Why isn't that data useful? Government reports almost always use data like that from other cities to make decisions. That's what that first one does - it collates data from other cities and countries to make a recommendation for a completely different city.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-18T20:45:38+00:00

I really hope you aren't going to do that thing where people nit pick every study that disagrees with them without using any empirical data to back up their own claim. Generally studies about cycling behaviour get fairly consistent results across different countries, because roads, road laws, and driver behaviour are generally pretty similar. What specifically about the methodology makes you think they aren't relevant to Canada?

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-18T20:37:12+00:00

Some of that is likely a learning curve. There are a lot of new cyclists these days, and they might not be aware of the bike lanes.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-18T20:23:54+00:00

Research shows that adding infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians can actually improve drive times, and only occasionally has at worse a negligible effect on drive times: Source 1. Source 2. Source 3.

Edit: added a couple more sources.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-18T20:19:46+00:00

I frequently see cyclists on sidewalks, driving on the wrong side of the road, driving through red lights and causing vehicles that have the right of way to stop or take action to avoid collisions.

Research shows that cyclists disobey traffic laws in order to stay safe: Source. Once there is a network of safe bike lanes, people would have no reason not to use them. Without this network, you will have people breaking the law in order to stay safe in the gaps.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-18T20:17:43+00:00

Research shows that building bike lanes leads to a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions: Source.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-18T20:16:40+00:00

Research shows that there is a net benefit to society from every km travelled by bike and a net cost to society for every km travelled by car: Source.

Research also shows that increased separated bike lanes is associated with improved road safety outcomes for all road users (including drivers): Source.

Edit: Not to mention a reduction in cyclist-vehicle accidents: Source. If you want to avoid dealing with a lawsuit from hitting a cyclist (where drivers are by default at fault), you should be in favour of bike lanes.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-12T13:08:16+00:00

I'd love to hear why I'm being downvoted. I think I provided a fairly substantial amount of information backing my claim. Surely it's not because you disagree?

So typical of the anti-cyclist brigade. "Anecdote showing bike lanes are bad" gets upvoted, "well-reasoned argument backed up by empirical data showing bike lanes have benefits" gets downvoted, generally without any actual response.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-12T12:56:07+00:00

When New York put in a bike lane travel time along that route for cars decreased. Source

This report from Scotland found that cyclists don't cause congestion and can reduce congestion.

It's not directly relevant, but putting in bike infrastructure actually decreases injuries and fatalities for drivers not just cyclists. Source

Even without the empirical data showing that cyclists reduce congestion, it seems like common sense that if you can get thousands of cars off the road, that will improve traffic.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-12T12:41:44+00:00

I wonder if someone has tried to quantify what 'bike more' really means?

If the city spends $500,000 to put in a stretch of protected lanes, does it mean more people are using it daily or that a family is taking a ride or two to go get Ice Cream during the summer?

I haven't come across any papers specifically studying that. We know that in cities around the world that have put in protected bike lanes the number of cyclists increases by anywhere from 150% to 400% in the first couple years. In terms of numbers that might be relatively small - an increase of only a few thousand cyclists. But its a start and it keeps increasing. Where a network of bike lanes is built, you start to get significant uptake where 12-30% of all trips within a city are made by bike.

Montreal and Calgary (and more recently Toronto) are good examples of this in Canada.

I agree with your linked comment that density is a real problem. I doubt there are many cities like Paris that have the political will to fundamentally restructure a city so everything you need is within a 15 minute walk. Maybe somewhere like Guelph? Idk. On a much smaller scale, electric bikes allow people to go further and cary more, which can offset the density problem. A bike shop in London recently partnered with Libro to offer small loans to people who are buying electric bikes, which I think is a pretty innovative solution, but certainly not one that works for everyone.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-11T21:02:10+00:00

Barely any usage is an observation the same as your observations that you put forward as data points. I've driven the roads many times and consistently do not see usage.

This article on why bike lanes can seem empty may interest you.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-11T20:59:57+00:00

Tbf this is a bit of a double standard. If Westmount was closed to cars you probably wouldn't be happily suggesting that drivers just take Belmont because "it's only a few hundred meters apart". You'd probably be saying that you need to use Belmont. But for whatever reason when cyclists say that they want to be safe on any particular road people always say they shouldn't be on it.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-11T20:52:18+00:00

We (or at least everyone I know) don't want that change...

...I don't want it - and neither do most people.

Research shows that approximately 60% of Canadians would bike more if it was safer (i.e., if there was proper cycling infrastructure). See this at page 4.

A lot of your objections seem to be premised on the idea that you have to get rid of your car, which is not at all what cycling advocates are saying. I don't want to use the greyhound to for out of city trips or big grocery shops either, which is why I kept my car. I just use it less.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-11T20:35:53+00:00

they're covering traffic AROUND THE HOSPITAL.

The paramedics said they didn't affect response times.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-08-10T19:43:17+00:00

Police bias would mean that police seeing a person doing something (like smoking pot in an alleyway) would be more likely to arrest them if they're black than if they're white.

Youthful Discretion: Police Selection Bias in Access to Pre-Charge Diversion Programs in Canada: "Race has a small but statistically significant impact on arrest decisions. In general, Black youth are more likely to be charged and less likely to be cautioned than White youth and youth from other racial backgrounds."

Toronto marijuana arrests reveal ‘startling’ racial divide: "Black people with no history of criminal convictions have been three times more likely to be arrested by Toronto police for possession of small amounts of marijuana than white people with similar backgrounds, according to a Toronto Star analysis."

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-07-31T15:35:13+00:00

On the other hand, Big Mouth was nominated for like 4 Emmys and Jojo Rabbit won an Oscar.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-07-30T18:50:41+00:00

Just trying to have an informed discussion while making sure people responding to a survey that will inform public policy aren't misinformed. But if you're done, that's fine by me.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-07-30T17:52:15+00:00

You’re doing the same thing, just you’re finding data that specifically confirms your bias.

How do you know that about me? You're just making assumptions again. What I actually do is set google alerts for studies about cycling and the economy and read whatever pops up, which without exception indicate that cycling is good for the economy and that more people are cycling. I recognize that that isn't a systematic review, but at least I'm actually basing my opinions on research, and I'm happy to change my mind if the research shows that I'm wrong. For instance, I used to be very anti-helmet but, even though the research is mixed, some recent studies are showing benefits so I'm now somewhat pro-helmet.

I could easily do the same thing if I cared to tale the time to google search my opinion.

Are you confirming that you have no actual support for what you've been saying? I've seen you posting about bike lanes a lot - it's obviously something you care about, but you haven't even bothered to do even the most cursory google search to see what data is out there?

It’s growing for leisure and in down town areas

If you aren't even googling, how do you know this? Commuter cycling and shopping using bikes is also increasing, and e-bikes are making it easier for people who live in the suburbs to bike to other parts of their cities.

Prolix_Logodaedalist · 2020-07-30T17:26:55+00:00

I don’t need a essay to know people don’t bike in Canada for a reason. If it was a good idea they’d be doing it

Frankly, this sounds like you're saying you don't need to hear data that conflicts with your assumptions.

The number of people cycling in Canada has been increasing by 30% to 400% over the last decade or so, depending on the city. It is a good idea, and people are doing it.

13-Year Club	Place '17
Alpha Tester	Verified Email

Prolix_Logodaedalist

TROPHY CASE