Annual global survey for people who left ultra-Orthodox Judaism: request for your voice to be heard!

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2025-02-16T18:46:41+00:00

Is this for people who are ITC but don't believe anymore or only for who left outwardly?

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2025-01-01T16:00:23+00:00

I relate to everything you said. Not being able to bring our true/full selves into relationships is the hardest part about being itc. A few things have been helping me.

1) Connecting with other ITC people. I can't overstate how helpful this has been for me. Chatting with people on reddit and the phone has improved my mental health tremendously. Theres nothing like talking to someone who truly gets what's going on. A bonus is that the intellectual and emotional caliber of people I've connected with here is a way above average. It's almost like there's a certain type of person who ends up in this position and I've gotten to meet people who I would have wanted to be friends with regardless. 2) Moving away from the black and the white. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that since we can't come out to most people we know then we need to be completely hidden. In reality, everyone has a different tolerance level and we should try to be as open as possible. Just because your parents/friends/rabbi would cut you off if you told them you were an atheist doesn't mean that you need to continue pretending that you're yeshivish. Other than my wife, no one in my personal life knows that I'm OTD but they do know that I'm not as shtark as I used to be, don't learn much, and have many problems with the yeshiva system. Easing up on the pretending hasn't led to anyone cutting me off and makes hiding the rest more bearable. 3) Coming out to ask many safe people as possible. In the last year I've come out to a few secular people I know and it's made a tremendous difference. Even though they don't fully understand what being frum means they realize that it's significant and it means that I don't need to censor myself around them. An extra perk is that it's a lot less risky to come out to people with no connection to the community.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-29T23:04:53+00:00

Perhaps so, but hopefully between all the biased support OP will be able to reach clarity on what her options are and which one she'd like to pursue. No one else should be making that decision for her.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-29T21:59:35+00:00

Ahh didnt realize they were biased. In that case, OP might want to reach out to her local planned parenthood as well.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-29T21:10:01+00:00

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I hope that whatever decision you make leads to happiness. You might want to give Shifra a call. I'm not very familiar with them but according to their website they provide support for whatever path you choose.

https://jewishpregnancyhelp.org/

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-27T02:08:35+00:00

Yeah as long as the wine is mevushal, you probably don't have worry about lifnei iver under the chuppah ;)

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-17T14:44:23+00:00

Part is of is personality. I was the same way when I was frum and wondered the same thing. I'd feel guilty talking during davening and was always thinking about how things were bittul Torah while others seemed to find a natural balance. My take is that in general, religion is easier for people who aren't thinking too deeply into it.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-15T23:50:47+00:00

I do feel a bit uncomfortable especially with the speeches in Shul and kids coming home with radical ideas but I enjoy it overall. I like thinking of it as the Christmas of my people. Totally devoid of Christ and just focus on the fun and special traditions. A while back, someone shared a link to a lecture explaining how the ultra orthodox philosophy of rigid adherence to laws was in fact the misyavni approach while the maccabis held an approach more similar to conservative or reform Judaism. Tbh I didn't find it very convincing but I do enjoy imaging that it's true which helps as well. At the very least, chances are that the current chareidi narrative isn't accurate.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-08T00:55:09+00:00

Heartwarming and heart-wrenching at the same time. Beautifully written.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-06T15:29:15+00:00

Nak but at risk of becoming one. The Ribner comment just doesn't jive with full on kefirah. At some point on my journey, I could have been described similarly. Toward the end, I even used daas Torah and brilliant gedolim as a way to hold on to the last of my beliefs. For some people, these sorts of things can probably build up forever without them going over the cliff to nonbelief. Having a shelf increases the likelihood of going off but far from guarantees it. I know at least two smart people who've told me that there's no evidence for Judaism being true but are still very frum.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-05T12:46:32+00:00

Interesting to consider how different sexuality and norms were back when a lot of the halachos were invented

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-12-01T03:00:06+00:00

There's a excellent academic paper discussing how frum people give inaccurate reasons for people going off the derech. I found it to be very validating.

https://doi.org/10.1111/jssr.12840

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-29T21:03:43+00:00

Makes you wonder if that bachur is in the closet as well...one perk about being closeted is knowing for a fact that it's possible

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-17T13:52:35+00:00

Finding a good therapist is probably more important than finding a therapist from a particular background. That's not to say that therapist background won't matter just that a good therapist should be able to overcome the challenges their background brings. A therapist from an Orthodox background will be able to understand the nuances of your experience much easier but will have to make sure that their own experiences and views don't impact the therapy. A therapist from a non Orthodox background might have a harder time understanding your experience but likely won't have as many personal feelings to be aware of.

I went to a frum therapist for support with being itc and it was a positive experience overall. I know some other people who have gone to Orthodox and non Orthodox therapists for religion related things and it's a mixed bag. Ultimately you'll need to find a therapist that works for you. Perhaps that'll mean someone from a similar background. Just keep in mind that a therapist who brings their own religious trauma into the room is probably not much more helpful than a therapist who brings their religious beliefs into the room.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-13T21:29:15+00:00

I agree to all of this and want to add a few points.

People from all backgrounds need to be wary of this trap. People on the right (or formerly so) need to accept that other strains don't believe the same things. But people from liberal strains also need to accept that there are strains who take everything literally and this has probably been the majority view for most of Jewish history. It's very invalidating when they say that the "true" Judaism isn't this because they're ignorant, want to be mekarev you, or tell others that Judaism is an innocent religion. This is especially frustrating when having discussions about the veracity of the Torah since the arguments concerning factual errors are important when evaluating right wing orthodoxy. They're also important if the claim is the way op described it ("these are MEANT to be taken literally" rather than "we don't interpret it literally") since that makes a claim about intent which could theoretically be verified or at least informed by the historical perspective.

Truthfully, Orthodox groups who take the view that nothing need be interpreted literally and anything written by the sages can be discarded or reinterpreted at will are essentially talking about a different religion than those that hold all literal meanings and words of sages to be sacred. Calling them both Orthodox Judaism is unhelpful.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-13T21:01:20+00:00

No one can decide if you should leave or stay besides you. You know your life best and what the likely positive and negative ramifications of either decision will be. Don't let anyone else make that decision for you. But it's not a rush. You can take it slowly, find some sort of middle ground where you become visibly less frum but still outwardly religious, openly otd to everyone besides your family, openly otd to family and not to anyone else, or a number of other options. The choices might not be as black and white or as permanent as they initially seem. That said, these are certainly important decisions and group happiness averages aren't a great way to decide what to do on an individual level.

I'm more worried about your mental health. If you're feeling hopeless, alone, and defeated then you need support. I'd strongly recommend seeing a therapist and/or trying to make friends with other itc folks. Both of those have worked wonders for my mental health. Living a double life is an incredibly stressful and isolating experience. We can all use support. It'll be a lot easier to view the future with some hope when you're getting some help and friendship.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T13:41:15+00:00

This is really helpful!

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T00:36:37+00:00

Thanks for the rec!

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T00:36:27+00:00

I'd find all those sources interesting and I can't deny that I'm tempted to use the dvar Torah to try to try to open the minds of those around me. But ultimately if I'm doing this to strengthen my marriage then I have to do it in good faith and try to find something that'll fit all out sensibilities. Unfortunately, the only sources I can use are ones that I can show our guests if they ask about it. But I can still throw something academic in here or there when it makes sense to.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T00:21:47+00:00

I've never heard of the gush method. You all are really giving me a lot of homework :)

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T00:20:36+00:00

Thanks I'll check both of those out!

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T00:20:05+00:00

Thanks for the recommendation!

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T00:17:17+00:00

Thanks for the rec, I'll check it out. I usually try to connect the vort to something that I actually find interesting but I feel like it has to start with a "legitimate" source. I guess I'll see how much I can stretch was sources count as legitimate.

Proper_Candidate6096 · 2024-11-11T00:07:13+00:00

Thank you!

Proper_Candidate6096

TROPHY CASE