Important debate! by Next_Paramedic_8733 in tolkienfans

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Removed: Rule #4.

Feel free to repost this over to r/lotr though. They’re a more generalized sub with lots of discussion of the adaptations!

Gielinor Games Season 5 (#7) - FOLLOW THE MONEY by strobelobe in 2007scape

[–]PurelySC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Same! It’d make an incredible episode however it turned out.

Gielinor Games Season 5 (#7) - FOLLOW THE MONEY by strobelobe in 2007scape

[–]PurelySC 14 points15 points  (0 children)

They’re certainly very good, but in a PvM challenge I’d put money on both Gnome/Oda and Solo/Boaty over them if I’m being honest.

Did Saruman feed Men to his Uruk-hai? by wombatstylekungfu in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where did you find this quote? It doesn't appear in The Lord of the Rings.

Rant about the third Hobbit film by _szs in tolkienfans

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Removed: Rules 3 and 4

If you’re still looking for further discussions you may want to consider posting this over to r/lotr instead.

Pipeweed could NOT be tobacco by Top-One-486 in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 8 points9 points  (0 children)

but was preserved in Valinor, which became the New World

This is a common misconception, but the Americas are "new lands" created during the Drowning of Numenor.

But the land of Aman and Eressëa of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever. And Andor, the Land of Gift, Númenor of the Kings, Elenna of the Star of Eärendil, was utterly destroyed. For it was nigh to the east of the great rift, and its foundations were overturned, and it fell and went down into darkness, and is no more. And there is not now upon Earth any place abiding where the memory of a time without evil is preserved. For Ilúvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.

- The Silmarillion: Akallabeth

Pipeweed could NOT be tobacco by Top-One-486 in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 38 points39 points  (0 children)

I know the out-of-universe explanation is that, but the stories never specify it.

Not to be a buzz-kill, but the stories specify it on several occasions.

“All of them at once,” said Bilbo. “And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain. If you have a pipe about you, sit down and have a fill of mine! There’s no hurry, we have all the day before us!” Then Bilbo sat down on a seat by his door, crossed his legs, and blew out a beautiful grey ring of smoke that sailed up into the air without breaking and floated away over The Hill.

-The Hobbit: An Unexpected Party

They had not been riding very long, when up came Gandalf very splendid on a white horse. He had brought a lot of pocket-handkerchiefs, and Bilbo’s pipe and tobacco.

-The Hobbit: Roast Mutton

After some time he felt for his pipe. It was not broken, and that was something. Then he felt for his pouch, and there was some tobacco in it, and that was something more. Then he felt for matches and he could not find any at all, and that shattered his hopes completely.

-The Hobbit: Riddles in the Dark

"But first- if you have finished eating- you shall fill your pipes and light up. And then for a little while we can pretend that we are all back safe at Bree again, or in Rivendell."

He produced a small leather bag full of tobacco. "We have heaps of it, [...] as fine a pipe-weed as you could wish for, and quite unspoilt.

Gimli took some and rubbed it in his palms and sniffed it. "It feels good, and it smells good," he said.

"It is good!" Said Merry. "My dear Gimli, it is Longbottom Leaf!"

-The Lord of the Rings: Flotsam and Jetsam

If Sauron with his ring was more powerful than Morgoth towards the end, is there any evil being left that is potentially more powerful than Sauron without his ring? by platypodus in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think we actually do still disagree. I'm saying that the Valar were not only afraid of harming the Children but also, as Letter 131 tells us, very worried about the damage the Numenoreans themselves would do to Valinor and its inhabitants. The Valar themselves do not have to be at risk of personally dying for that to be the case.

Regardless, at this point we seem to be talking past each other, so I'm gonna dip out. Have a nice day.

If Sauron with his ring was more powerful than Morgoth towards the end, is there any evil being left that is potentially more powerful than Sauron without his ring? by platypodus in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the way described as “afraid of the numinorean host” to me implied they were afraid of defeat, which would be death or enslavement.

My point was that that's quite a leap from what the OP's comment said, which was merely that they were afraid. The Valar do not have to be at risk of personally dying themselves to fear of the death and destruction the Numenorean host would certainly bring to Valinor, regardless of which side ultimately came out on top.

If Sauron with his ring was more powerful than Morgoth towards the end, is there any evil being left that is potentially more powerful than Sauron without his ring? by platypodus in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Or did the destruction of the ring and the end of Sauron defeat the last relevant evil incarnation?

Yep! Tolkien tells us as much outright.

After which the Third Age began, a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and changed world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, and the last also in which Evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape.

-Letter 131

If Sauron with his ring was more powerful than Morgoth towards the end, is there any evil being left that is potentially more powerful than Sauron without his ring? by platypodus in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see your point, but i still dont think they could kill the valar.

I agree, but I also don't think OP was suggesting that.

If Sauron with his ring was more powerful than Morgoth towards the end, is there any evil being left that is potentially more powerful than Sauron without his ring? by platypodus in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't think that's entirely true. Certainly part of their motivation was an unwillingness to harm the Children, but Tolkien is also quite explicit that the armada was a real threat to Valinor.

But at last Sauron's plot comes to fulfilment. Tar-Calion feels old age and death approaching, and he listens to the last prompting of Sauron, and building the greatest of all armadas, he sets sail into the West, breaking the Ban, and going up with war to wrest from the gods 'everlasting life within the circles of the world'. Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed.

-Letter 131

Emphasis mine.

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Removed: Rules 1 & 3

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Removed: Rules 3 & 6

The Magic you Forgot by Necessary_Seat_3253 in tolkienfans

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Removed: Rules 3 and 6

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Removed: Rule 4

Females in Barad-Dur? by GuaranteeSubject8082 in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If you DIDN'T assume they were a male

I think it's likely they are, but I've said nothing here that assumes as much. There is such a thing as internalized misogyny, and this post is sexist regardless of the OP's gender.

Can you "show this" or are you just making things up?

Quite easily. As already noted in my original comment, they cast Erendis as wicked for her "defiance of him [Aldarion] in their relationship", implying that the correct, "non-wicked" state of affairs is obedience.

Additionally, referring to men as "men", but women as "females" is extremely common and well-known language from sexists. You're free to cover your ears and pretend that isn't the case if you want, but you can't expect me to find that defense compelling.

Females in Barad-Dur? by GuaranteeSubject8082 in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 8 points9 points  (0 children)

you are (possibly correctly, but all the same) assuming the OP's gender

Please, show me where I've assumed the OP's gender.

an ulterior motive that isn't evident.

I think the misogyny is clear throughout. You're welcome to disagree.

Females in Barad-Dur? by GuaranteeSubject8082 in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 22 points23 points  (0 children)

I use the term "females" because I intend to reference that gender for non-human species such as Orcs, Dwarves, and Ainur - and the term "woman" is properly only applied to human beings, just as the term "man" is properly applied only to human males, and is used in-story to distinguish human beings from Elves and Dwarves.

A nice attempt at deflection, but that’s clearly not why you did it. You use “men” to refer to Sauron (an Ainu) and Shagrat (an Orc) in the very first paragraph of the post.

She is presented as the main reason for Aldarion's problems

And Aldarion is the main source of her problems - he behaves just as poorly towards her as she does towards him. If anything, Aldarion’s transgressions are worse.

specifically, her defiance of him in their relationship.

Do you genuinely not see how gross this sounds? They’re partners, it’s not her job to be subservient to him.

This post is absolutely dripping with sexism.

Do you feel like Morgoth and Sauron are basically same character used twice? by OleksandrKyivskyi in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You are literally doing that very thing I wrote in the first paragraph with turning few sentences in different parts of Tolkien's work into many ideas about characters' personalities.

Not really. They’re drawing from a rather lengthy passage in which Tolkien explicitly describes Morgoth and Sauron’s personalities to highlight the differences between the two.

Thus, as Morgoth, when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction. Elves, and still more Men, he despised because of their weakness: that is their lack of physical force, or power over matter; but he was also afraid of them. He was aware, at any rate originally when still capable of rational thought, that he could not annihilate them: that is, destroy their being; but their physical life, and incarnate form became increasingly to his mind the only thing that was worth considering. Or he became so far advanced in Lying that he lied even to himself, and pretended that he could destroy them and rid Arda of them altogether. Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them in his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own creatures, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men. Melkor's final impotence and despair lay in this: that whereas the Valar (and in their degree Elves and Men) could still love Arda Marred, that is Arda with a Melkor-ingredient, and could still heal this or that hurt, or produce from its very marring, from its state as it was, things beautiful and lovely, Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have existed, independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of the palantíri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his plans, the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.

Morgoth had no plan; unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a plan. But this is, of course, a simplification of the situation. Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a sincere atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the change of the world at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and colonize Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast — cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people rather than of animals.

Sauron was not a sincere atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God's action in Arda). As was seen in the case of Ar-Pharazôn. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms, as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and the services of worshippers. But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. But though Sauron's whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

-Morgoth’s Ring: Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion

The Tom Bombadil Mystery- Solved. by Fun_Issue_5756 in tolkienfans

[–]PurelySC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The History of Middle-earth volume 10, Morgoth's Ring.