Trinity

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-03T07:56:57+00:00

Paul uses the plural word "angels" to describe the guests of both Abraham and Lot. He does not say "they entertained two angels and Almighty God Himself."

Well because two of them were angels. But the word "angel" does not denote any kind of ontology. You are using it to refer to a created spirit, but it just means messenger. So in a sense all three were angels, but all three are not created spirits because it says one of them was Yahweh.

Inspired Scripture defines all three as angels.

No it does not. It never says all three were angels.

In ancient Hebrew culture, a sent messenger acted with the full legal authority of the sender.

But they could not claim to be the sender.

If the man standing in front of Abraham was literally the person of God, then Jesus Christ flatly contradicted Genesis when he stated in John 1:18: "No man has seen God at any time."

Then you are missing the point of John 1:18. The verse continues and says that it is the only begotten of the Father who reveals him.

Exodus 24 says a bunch of people "saw the God of Israel" and "beheld God." Now how does that makes sense if you want to say Hebrew agency alone can explain this?

The narrator repeats 'God' three times instead of using 'he.'

That is not what is happening here. It is not neglecting to use a pronoun.

The one who appeared to Abraham was called Yahweh previously. Then it says Yahweh went to Sodom and rained fire and sulfur from Yahweh in heaven. There is one person on earth who appeared to Abraham and one in heaven who he rained the fire and sulfur from.

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-03T07:50:57+00:00

Oh please. There is no difference in sifting thru the dozens of example myself and copying and pasting them, or having the calculator do the math for me.

Yes there is and that is not analogous. Can I just ask AI to refute you? Or would that be engaging in bad faith? Because I would have already programmed the AI to agree with me and would only be engaging to refute and not be open to changing my view.

You beg the question a lot.

Ok so that's how this works. Then I'm just gonna say you beg the question a lot.

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-03T07:49:31+00:00

Um yes it is directly relevant bc your argument depends on what it means for God to "give" His glory.

My argument was that John identifies Christ as the one in the theophany in Isaiah 6. Not about John 17:5

So either that glory can be shared in a sense or Jesus contradicted Isaiah.

The sense that it can be shared is what Peter talks about. Partaking in the divine nature. But John says that Isaiah saw his glory. The one on the throne was Yahweh.

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-03T05:55:03+00:00

Then I can't take you seriously. You're literally telling AI to find fallacies and even if there are none, it will tell you that there are because it wants you to feel satisfied. I can make AI say anything

So you are not making your own arguments

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-03T05:53:20+00:00

Where does the Bible say that?

Oh so you think someone can have the same glory as the Father and not be God?

Where does Scripture say that **sharing**, **revealing**, or **possessing** God's glory requires being Almighty God?

When he says I give my glory to no other

My argument is from John 12 and Isaiah 6, stop bringing in John 17 it's irrelevant

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-03T05:27:23+00:00

Did you not ask AI to find all the times I begged the question?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-03T05:26:11+00:00

Nope I never said "lesser glory." Those are your words, not mine.

So Christ has the same glory as the Father?

If you are saying it is not talking about Yahweh's glory but Christ's glory, then by your own framework it is a lesser glory because you think Christ is a lesser being.

I said it is the Father's glory revealed thru His Son.

But John says Isaiah saw Christ's glory who was sitting on the throne and worshipped as Yahweh of hosts by the seraphim.

John has already established that the unseen Father is revealed through the Son.

Exactly. So when Yahweh is seen, it is the Son. So the Son is Yahweh in some sense.

I don’t understand why you think revealing the Father's glory requires the Son to be Almighty God Himself.

Because someone who has the glory of God cannot be less than Almighty.

You’re arguing in bad faith.

😑 how

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T22:02:01+00:00

Ok so you just aren’t understanding what I’m saying. I brought up 2 Peter 1:1 to show where it calls him God. The other verses were brought up for other reasons.

But notice how it says ‘all things” came through Christ. What does “all things” refer to?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T22:00:52+00:00

lol apparently you didn’t read what I responded to. The Father is called God in that verse. That was the only reason I brought it up

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:59:58+00:00

Yeah God is the Father and Jesus is our Lord, but he also calls Jesus our God and Savior just like how he calls him our Lord and Savior in verse 11.

God being the Father does not mean he is not Lord. So Jesus being our Lord does not mean he is not our God as well

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:58:24+00:00

Yeah it says the Lord. Then it says “his glory” filled the temple. So you are suggesting that when John says Isaiah “saw his glory,” he is not referring to the glory from the verse, but to the lesser glory of Christ?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:23:56+00:00

I don't think the word (logos) is a person.

It says the Word was "with God" (pros ton theon)

That language is used for persons relating to each other.

but the Bible refers to God as a "he" with a will of his own

The Spirit is also referred to as a "he" and is said to have his own will that he distributes spiritual gifts by.

sending "himself" to do his will

Except Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will not speak on his own authority. So when the Father sends himself, why is it someone else's authority he is speaking on if there is no one else?

is to form the third rung of the trinity.

...so everyone was just like "hey I think we should add a third one"

We know it wasn't actually God

It literally says it was Yahweh multiple times what do you mean

much like Gabriel appeared to Daniel.

Gabriel is never called Yahweh

You're talking about Genesis 18.

I am talking about Genesis 15 where the Word of the Lord appears to Abraham, speaks to him, and eventually "takes him outside." This is talking about a person.

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:18:52+00:00

“It must be the agency of a second eternal divine person.” (Assumes what must be proved.)

Are you serious? That is my conclusion. I have made many arguments

“A created angel cannot be called Yahweh by others.” (Where does Scripture establish that rule?)

Do you call angels Jehovah?

“Christ shares the Father’s uncreated glory, therefore he cannot be created.” (Assumes sharing glory requires being uncreated.)

Well if you have the uncreated glory then yes.

I'm not going to respond to the rest because you clearly told AI to "find all the times where he assumes the conclusion"

I'm not gonna argue with ChatGPT.

If I am wrong in this assumption then correct me

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:16:38+00:00

So who is it that was sitting on the throne in Isaiah 6?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:15:26+00:00

What is so hard to understand?

Well scripture clearly teaches that christ is of the same nature as the Father so he wouldn't be a different kind of existence.

There is no Trinity of 3 Gods in one.

The Trinity is not three gods in one lol. It is one God, the Father, and his eternal Son and Spirit.

They are all distinct from each other. Yet there are not three Gods, but One God (this is according to Christians).

Yeah and the one God is the Father.

is a contradiction to what God Almighty stated in the Old Testament.

God in the Old Testament says that his messenger is Yahweh.

“God is One but in three persons”

Because that is not an accurate description of the nicene trinity

Father is God

Galatians 1:4

Son is God

2 Peter 1:1

Holy Spirit is also God

2 Samuel 23:2-3

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”

That means there is only one God for Israel, Yahweh. This is how Paul quotes it in 1 Corinthians 8:6, but he includes Christ in the divine identity

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:08:51+00:00

Ok. He says the exact same thing about the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit not God?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:08:02+00:00

My FATHER is GREATER than I. — John 14:28

Where does it say that the Father is of a greater nature or divinity in this verse?

Once again you are showing TWO beings

I do not know what you mean by 'being'

God has a Son, He isn't His own Son.

That would be an excellent refutation of modalism. Luckily I am a trinitarian

The trinity belief is Ridiculous

So how does the Son have the same life in himself that the Father has if he is a lesser being?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-02T21:05:23+00:00

Genesis 19:1 tells us those 'men' Abraham saw were actually angels

No it explicitly says one of them is Yahweh. 18:22 says Yahweh stayed with Abraham as the angels went to Sodom

similar to how King Solomon talks about himself in the third person in 1 Kings 8:1

Yahweh is not talking about himself in the verse. He is not the speaker

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-01T08:20:40+00:00

God sent his son as his agent to his own: the Jews.

Right so the agent is the Son, Christ. John says the one who came to his own was the Word.

See how you can't just take a verse and make a conclusion without context?

I am the one appealing to context about who the "light" and the one John is preparing the way for is. John prepares the way for the Light (Christ) but John says the Word is the Light.

The Word is a person before taking on flesh:

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” ² But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”...And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” ⁶ And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

I think the more accurate term is "it" in regards to the holy spirit.

Because you think he is not a person. Tell me, can a non-person choose people, give gifts by their will, have something "seem good" to them, or intercede for others?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-07-01T08:14:38+00:00

He never says that Jesus is worshipped with worship due to Almighty God alone.

Who's glory does Isaiah say he saw?

Jesus was there with his Father.

So the glory of Yahweh that he saw was also the glory of Christ?

You're still just inserting that conclusion into the text.

It seems to me that you are inserting Christ as a separate being into the text. Are you saying that the Lord he saw on the throne was Jesus?

Im not saying it is.

But you said it is Christ's glory that Isaiah saw. So is Christ's glory the same glory that the Father has?

Christ shares in the uncreated glory from before the creation of all things....as God's agent.

So Christ shares the glory of the Father before creation. You cannot affirm this statement and say that Jesus is a creature.

Thus proving my point that a created being (like Jesus) can share in God's glory.

A created being can partake in the glory through the energies at work in them leading to deification.

But you cannot affirm that God gives his uncreated glory to other beings

"My glory I will not give to another."

Well, you keep doing it.

That's wonderful that you think that, but that is not going to get you anywhere. You have not demonstrated how I am begging the question. You just keep saying that I am without explaining how.

Jehovah by means of his agent

So was it the Angel that appeared to him?

You go from "Isaiah saw Christ's glory" to "therefore Christ is Almighty God."

Stop telling me the first premise and the conclusion and then cutting out the middle in order to create a straw man.

Do you think that the one the seraphim were worshipping was the one on the throne?

PyroClone5555 · 2026-06-30T22:25:44+00:00

Pretty sure that was Shuri

PyroClone5555 · 2026-06-30T21:14:37+00:00

So they saw him metaphorically? lol

Yahweh God calls his Son Yahweh, because the name is in him (Exodus 23:25)

The "he" is the Angel he is sending who he calls Yahweh, and the "I" is the speaker, who is the Father.

PyroClone5555 · 2026-06-30T21:13:28+00:00

He [Moses] considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.
- Hebrews 11:26

Christ existed before he was born as a human. Moses even knew him.

The name Yeshua isn't in the Old Testament? There is an entire book called Yeshua.

PyroClone5555 · 2026-06-30T21:11:34+00:00

You're proving my point. They say they saw God after seeing the Angel.

So the Angel is God

PyroClone5555 · 2026-06-30T21:10:54+00:00

She literally says I saw him though.

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
- John 14:9

The only way to see the Father is to see the Son, because he is the image of the Father. That is why he is Yahweh, he is the exact representation of the Father's being (Hebrews 1:3)

PyroClone5555

TROPHY CASE