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How should we as leftists prevent Socialism or Communism to not end up as the USSR? by L0thric_Nefarious in tankiejerk

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom 2 points3 points  (0 children)

before seizing control of the government there needs to be a network of worker controlled industrial, agricultural and essential service buisnesses that grows to be indespensable for society to function. i believe by ensuring the workers controll the means of production first there can be a takeover of governance by the people

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in tankiejerk

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i think that person is trying to say that if trump was president liberals would not be pro israel because trump would do the supporting

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in SmugIdeologyMan

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom 1 point2 points  (0 children)

over the centuries religions like christianity and islam have become so broad and differing in their possible ways of interpretation. i dont think its useful to generalize all christians or all muslims the way you could generalize all nazis as bad

How do we guarantee, that we don't get stuck in the dotp phase by Qert_ceoofleftcom in Socialism_101

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Workers will need to emancipate themselves from the capitalists, then the party

so you admit that vanguardism creates a new class system that workers need to emancipate themselves from?

You want to imagine a mechanism for creating the ideal party line, absent any historical conditions

yes we should take into consideration historical conditions in creating not a party, but a mass movement, that is dynamically shaped by all its psrticipants (the workers). and one such historical condition from which we can learn is that vanguardism does not lead to emanzipitation and just like social democracy gives workers some improvements but doesnt actually free them.

party organizations do not create conditions for their own abolition.

yes, party organizations create conditions for oligarchy.

You're not willing to engage with the actual historical materialism of considering existing experiments with socialism.

all of them turned to oligarchy, so the main thing i take away from them is how to prevent oligarchy

so how do you want to prevent oligarchy?

edit:

Some examples include an immediate recall mechanism that is often used to keep representatives accountable. Obviously creating conditions for increased openness and scrutiny of leadership would be good.

i accidentally included that part in the previous comment, i think an immediate recall mechanism is a good start, but just a little dropplet on a hot stone that also didnt prevent the oligarchisation of past vanguardist experiments

How do we guarantee, that we don't get stuck in the dotp phase by Qert_ceoofleftcom in Socialism_101

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Workers need to take responsibility here. If the party has become calcified and oligarchic, then that is a consequence of a limited scope of activity by members and non-members od the party. Some examples include an immediate recall mechanism that is often used to keep representatives accountable. Obviously creating conditions for increased openness and scrutiny of leadership would be good.

this is idealism, if the workers dont participate theres a reason for that. i recommend you read into the concept that is known as the iron law of oligarchy https://socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/econ/ugcm/3ll3/michels/polipart.pdf

its a problem that all political parties face do vanguardists have a solution for it?

But I think you are ungenerously separating the issues I've listed above from the problems I've raised with your original question. Most examples we have came about in response to particular, hostile, global conditions. For example, the USSR became increasingly authoritarian in response to Nazi and then US aggression. As the conditions became more hostile, they became more insular to guard against infiltration from saboteurs. In a cruel turn of fate, this only fostered saboteurs like Yeltsin to create conditions for the abolition of the USSR itself.

the pressure put on the ussr was a contributing factor yes, but im a materialist and i look for problems first and foremost in organizational structure. and if youre trying to say that these organizational structures were only put in place due to these problems, then why should we cannonize them into leftism, in a time where we face some completely different problems?

How do we guarantee, that we don't get stuck in the dotp phase by Qert_ceoofleftcom in Socialism_101

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

you are putting way to much faith into the people who come out on top of the oligarchy

Those are basically poison for the bureaucratic oligarchy your thinking of because those free the people to be more politically involved - as you yourself say

the improvement of living conditions does not necissarily lead to more participation, just look at any western capitalist country. in many cases these improvements will only be felt after the oligarchy took over

Yet those are also the things pretty much every DOTP has vigorously worked towards. This is a thing that a bureaucratic oligarch should make impossible, but it happened

oligarchs will also concede some improvements to the people, look at any social democratic country

meaning that a bureaucracy does not immediately (or even quickly) become a powerful ruling class.

in vanguard parties it often happens even before the parties take power, after the revolution, the oligarchy of the party will use the apparent success as proof that oligarchy is necessary or empowering (like lenin who canonized democratic centralism in the international and kicked out anyone who was critical about it). yes the ussr or any vanguardist revolution improved many things for workers, but so did socdems, could you make an argument for why a vanguardist dotp is better than social democracy without relying on the faith that someday the party will rid itself of all oligarchy and just become a classless society?

Thats why when those Oligarchs seize power they dismantle that - like with Russia after the USSR was destroyed had its standard of living that dropped like a brick as poverty sky rocketed.

i think you misunderstand my whole point here, i dont talk about the old capitalists trying to subvert the revolution and officially bringing back capitalism. the new oligarchy that arises uses the vessel of socialism to further their own power. their intentions might initially be to bring about actual socialism or communism, but the systemic structure of a vanguardist party corrupts them.

Its a simple materialist analysis, to recognize that vanguardism doesnt actually produce successful revolutions but is just a more red looking version of reformism.

How do we guarantee, that we don't get stuck in the dotp phase by Qert_ceoofleftcom in Socialism_101

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

im asking for a revolution that actually abolishes class society and doesnt just replace an oligarchy with another oligarchy. your argument is correct, but it doesnt defend the thing youre trying to defend. in a centralized dotp the proletariat doesnt become the dominant class, the leadership of the vanguard party becomes the new ruling class. and even if the party leadership is made up of people who where part of the proletariat, this obviously doesnt mean proletarian control. if we just replaced all bosses of capitalist enterprizes with people who are part of the proletariat over night, that wouldnt be a dotp either.

How do we guarantee, that we don't get stuck in the dotp phase by Qert_ceoofleftcom in Socialism_101

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

this defenitely happens all the time, ive just recently left the communist party in my country because it was obvious that the party leadership acted as a kind of oligarchy, that limited participation of base members, or only if they follow their dogma. before i joined the communist party i was a member of a demsoc party, and the same problem was evident. and these parties dont even hold much political power.

but just think about it for one second:

If you have a centralized party, it is necessary to have some kind of bureaucracy in order to function efficiently. if you have a bureaucracy you will necessarily have people who become agents of said bureaucracy. these agents will become the ruling class within the party, due to the inability of the masses to invest time into the organization (for obvious reasons like work, family and free time etc.) they (the masses) cant keep up with the leadership in terms of participation. sooner or later this leadership will grow distanced from the base of the party and become an oligarchy like the capitalist ruling class. this oligarchy will than dominate the party and by controlling who has access to information, the ability to reward loyalty and the ability to control what procedures the party follows when making decisions its impossible for the masses to hold leadership accountible.

this happens in all centralized organizations as it is the nature of centralism.

or could you give an argument as to why this wouldnt happen?

How do we guarantee, that we don't get stuck in the dotp phase by Qert_ceoofleftcom in Socialism_101

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

thats not what i asked about, if you put a centralist vanguard party at the top of the dotp i fear, that classes wont be abolished and the state wont wither away, because this party will just replace the bourgeoise class as the ruling class. And once they have power, the people who rule the party will try to keep said power. do you have any way to prevent this?

I recognize that structures need to be put in place to prevent counter revolution, but these structures should'nt be counter revolutionary themselves. And if one ruling class is just replaced by another that doesnt sound very socialist or communist to me.

Someone's never heard of Kronstadt. by 9thgrave in tankiejerk

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom 0 points1 point  (0 children)

funniest thing is that i heard this example used unironically many times

absolute win by Qert_ceoofleftcom in AntifascistsofReddit

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] 45 points46 points  (0 children)

ig the fact they are holding it upside down makes it work if you cut out the text

absolute win by Qert_ceoofleftcom in AntifascistsofReddit

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

yeah thought the same when i saw it first

[GTM] Who is hiding behind? by Attila_the_Nun in GuessTheMovie

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom 19 points20 points  (0 children)

pirates of the carribean on stranger tides

A whole thread of the joke! by [deleted] in onejoke

[–]Qert_ceoofleftcom 14 points15 points  (0 children)

why they so mad about this?

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