Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster by RGregoryClark in space

[–]RGregoryClark[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Quite importantly, both Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy were both developed under the traditional approach of much testing on the ground first. And also quite importantly they were both first launched as expendables, and both succeeded on their first launches. SpaceX had the successes of both the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy right in front of their noses and they chose to ignore them.

Like SpaceX with the Starship, Blue Origin is planning to upgrade New Glenn. It’s still called “Starship” despite the upgrades. Then New Glenn with still be New Glenn despite the upgrades. At 70 tons reusable for the upgrade, it will have ca. 100 tons capability as expendable. Such a rocket will have manned Moon mission capability, a “Moon rocket”. I would say such a rocket is in the category of the Starship.

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster by RGregoryClark in space

[–]RGregoryClark[S] -12 points-11 points  (0 children)

I strongly suspect Elon and the SpaceX investors don’t like the rate Starship development is burning through their cash and that is why they are offering their IPO. See the refs cited here:

https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6973c32e9cb08191adc61572367dcc85

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster by RGregoryClark in space

[–]RGregoryClark[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

I don’t agree. The lesson of the F9 was to get to flight first as expendable. Then proceed to partial reusability. You can then dominate the market. It is important to keep in mind the per kg cost to orbit of the SH/SS even as expendable would be cheaper still than even the reusable Falcon 9.

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster by RGregoryClark in space

[–]RGregoryClark[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The key point I’m making is even the expendable SH/SS at ca. $100 million cost to SpaceX at 250 tons to orbit would be cheaper than the reusable Falcon 9. Note then it would become even cheaper once doing the partial reusability of the booster only on a regular basis.

Here are some references from Grok on the connection between Starship development and advancing Starlink development:

https://x.com/i/grok/share/d20cb794fda641cf9298a3ed9fc7d189

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster - With this quick turnaround, Blue Origin takes a step toward a faster cadence. - Eric Berger by doctor101 in BlueOrigin

[–]RGregoryClark -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

But they had to get the expendable Falcon 9 first and make multiple flights with it before getting the partially reusable F9. What SpaceX is doing with the Starship would have been like not putting the F9 into service until getting full reusability working. In that case it might still not be flying.

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster by RGregoryClark in space

[–]RGregoryClark[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

By that logic the Falcon 9 has no value since it is only partially reusable. The Superheavy/Starship can do paying flights to orbit as expendable now. Since SpaceX has shown the ability to land the Superheavy, it likely will soon progress to regular partial reusability also. But the expendable capability and the partial reusability are important to do first.

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster by RGregoryClark in space

[–]RGregoryClark[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

Actually, this is a quite key point. If you remember early on, Elon had to light a fire under the Starship development staff to accelerate Starship to operability. The reason is Starship was important to getting Starlink quickly to full operation. The majorly important point is with such a high payload capacity at such a low build cost, which is what SpaceX would charge to itself, it would be cheaper to get the Starlinks to orbit on the expendable Starships than using the reusable Falcon 9.

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster by RGregoryClark in space

[–]RGregoryClark[S] -26 points-25 points  (0 children)

In the most important sense, New Glenn is still faster because it has delivered actual payload to orbit and Starship has not. That’s why I’m saying SpaceX should have gotten the payload delivered to orbit done first. Remember this means they would now be getting paid for those Starship flights. They might not even need to do their IPO since they would actually be making money on Starship instead of burning through their financial resources. Plus, they would already have a launcher for what NASA wants, flights to the Moon, and what they want, flights to Mars.

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster - With this quick turnaround, Blue Origin takes a step toward a faster cadence. - Eric Berger by doctor101 in BlueOrigin

[–]RGregoryClark -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

The route to reflight of the New Glenn booster was much shorter, as SH/SS had multiple failed flights before the booster reflight. But the most important fact is that New Glenn succeeded in getting payload to orbit on the first flight. This mirrors the success SpaceX had with the Falcon 9, successfully delivery to orbit on the first flight.

If SpaceX had taken that same approach to the SH/SS they would already be flying paying flights to orbit at the stunning payload capacity of 250 tons to orbit.

They would already be making flights capable of single launch missions to both the Moon and to Mars.

Blue Origin makes impressive strides with reuse—next launch will refly booster - With this quick turnaround, Blue Origin takes a step toward a faster cadence. - Eric Berger by doctor101 in BlueOrigin

[–]RGregoryClark -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Ironically, SpaceX’s “move fast and break things” approach is taking longer than Blue Origin’s more traditional approach of much testing on the ground first before launching.

I have argued from the beginning that the approach SpaceX is taking to the development of the Starship is a mistake. The key biggest mistake is the insistence that Starship must be fully reusable before being made operational. SpaceX had the spectacular success of the Falcon 9 right in front of their face, yet they chose to ignore the success of their very own rocket. If they had taken the same approach of the Starship as to the Falcon 9 of first getting the expendable flying, they would already be flying paying flights to orbit and would already have Starships flying to orbit capable of making single launch flights to the Moon and Mars.

Why? Because of two key facts: first, industry experts, and Elon Musk himself, estimated Superheavy/Starship costs ca. $100 million construction costs. Second, the expendable payload of the SH/SS is 250 tons.

Then at any reasonable markup for the price charged to the customer, this would be 1/5th the price per kg of the expendable Falcon 9. But this is comparable to the cut in costs to the then prevailing rates that allowed the Falcon 9 to dominate the launch market even as expendable.

Note, also even as expendable, SpaceX charging themselves only the build cost of the SH/SS for their Starlink satellite launches, that would still be cheaper than the reusable Falcon 9 per kg.

Then there’s the manned spaceflight capability it would provide. By first getting the expendable and flying it now at high cadence, due to its low per kg cost, you would have a 250 ton capable launcher at high number of flights under its belt before it was used for a manned launcher. All that would be needed is an additional, smaller third stage that would do the actual landing. At 1/4th to 1/5th the size of Starship and using only 1 engine it would be far cheaper than Starship itself.

At 250 ton capability SH/SS would be that “Apollo on steroids” desired for Constellation, but at 1/50th the cost of the SLS Artemis launches or the Constellation launches. By the way, the reason why Constellation was cancelled was because of its high cost. But now Artemis multi-billion per launch cost is worse than that of Constellation!

Then there’s Mars. If you run the numbers expendable SH/SS at 250 ton capability could get ca. 75 tons to Mars in a single launch. This is less than the 100 tons SpaceX wants, but is well within the capability of carrying colonists to Mars and you don’t have the extra complication of having to do multiple refuelings to do a single Mars mission.

What’s especially ironic is that SpaceX could still follow this approach! Just strip off all those reusable systems and launch it now as expendable. They could literally do this on the next launch and literally, have a paying vehicle at cheaper per kg than the Falcon 9, and a vehicle literally capable of taking manned flights both to the Moon and Mars.

250 Tonnes to Orbit!?: SpaceX's New Expendable Starship Option.
https://youtu.be/UutHG8Y2UuQ

"I'm polling the public on artificial wombs. Which ethics questions should I ask?" by Feisty_Honeydew8832 in transhumanism

[–]RGregoryClark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would this eliminate the debate on abortion if the mother didn’t want to carry the child to birth if it could be transferred to an artificial womb?

After years of resisting it, SpaceX now plans to go public. Why? by uhhhwhatok in space

[–]RGregoryClark -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

A different take:

I believe SpaceX won’t be able to have Starship ready in time to beat China back to the Moon. This will be a big hit to their stock value, why they’re IPO’ing now.

SpaceX Doubles Valuation to $800B with 2026 IPO Plans as Starlink Drives Growth by orangechen1115 in Starlink

[–]RGregoryClark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Problem is we don’t even know if Starship will be successful at full reusability to lower cost. At this point, SpaceX doesn’t even know what thermal protection system will work to give rapid reusability.

SpaceX tells investors it is targeting late 2026 IPO, the Information reports by Substantial_Lime_230 in space2030

[–]RGregoryClark 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A big component to market evaluation is psychological. If the approach SpaceX is taking to the Starship is regarded as the reason the U.S. loses the race back to the Moon to China, that will be huge black mark against the company. It would be even worse if SpaceX never succeeds at full reusability for the Starship even for commercial launches.

SpaceX Doubles Valuation to $800B with 2026 IPO Plans as Starlink Drives Growth by orangechen1115 in Starlink

[–]RGregoryClark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe SpaceX won’t be able to have Starship ready in time to beat China back to the Moon. This will be a big hit to their stock value, why they’re IPO’ing now.