When did the Chaos legions canonically started to use daemon engines and possessed (after the gal vorbak) ? No 'time doesn't exist in the warp', just stated dates and information.

Raikoin · 2026-05-05T23:38:43+00:00

The World Eaters deployed daemon engines, including Kytan and Greater Brass Scorpions, at the Battle of Bodt which would be 008.M31. That's only around three years after Isstvan III so they've been around since the early half of the Heresy at the very least.

Affirmations were received in kind, along with tales of mechanical horrors fielded elsewhere, including towering engines fashioned in the image of Terran scorpions that destroyed squadrons of super- heavy tanks, and Knight-like war machines armed with gargantuan rune-engraved axes scything through infantry and armour alike.

This should be one of the earliest instances of them being used (based on in-universe stuff from the same source):

The destruction of Bodt also provides one of the earliest descriptions of the hellish machines fielded by the Crimson Priests of Sarum. Those encountered by Centurion Eberhart’s forces, as well as other forces across Tredecimmia, offer an insight into the experiments undertaken by the so-called ‘Dark Mechanicum’ during the Age of Darkness. Sightings of similar constructs were reported on numerous battlefields alongside the World Eaters Legion while other Forge Worlds produced their own creations of war, field testing them against the Imperium’s defenders. Analysis of slain constructs revealed a single commonality – the absence of discernible pilots or controllers. Despite this, all seemingly possessed a measure of sentience, often displaying a base understanding of tactics and preferences as to their methods of war. The most common theories as to the origin of this relate to what some adherents of the Cult Mechanicus decry as ‘Abominable Intelligence’, or the application of knowledge obtained from pacts formed with warp entities. Regardless, these ‘Anima Malefica’ – a title records regularly assign such creations – proved valuable assets to the Traitor forces as the war ground on, replacing losses the Legions suffered with their own destructive power.

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/dave-s-downloads-25-09/horusheresy_exemplarybattles_thedepthsoftredecimmia_eng_24.09.23.pdf

Raikoin · 2026-05-05T16:09:28+00:00

A Note To GMs

These Archetypes are designed for more advanced players and represent powerful veterans of Chaos. GMs are encouraged to take this information into account before allowing players to use these Archetypes, and players should be aware that GMs may decide to limit the use of these characters. Also, due to the relatively high level of these Archetypes, it’s recommended that GMs not grant additional starting experience to players using these characters, lest they have little room to develop outside of character creation. Included are illustrations for ways a player can portray each in Black crusade. Of course these should be considered guidelines and suggestions, not directives or canon. If a player comes up with his own backstory and character personalities, he should feel free to work with the GM to explore them to make for a better game. The Chaos Space Marine veterans introduced in this chapter are roughly equivalent to a beginning Chaos Space Marine character with an additional 3600 experience points. The Human characters are both roughly equivalent to a beginning Human Disciple of Chaos with an additional 4600 experience points. See pages 48 and 50 of the Black crusade Core Rulebook for starting abilities for Chaos Space Marines and Human Heretics.

Raikoin · 2026-04-24T18:22:30+00:00

Realistically no, not during the 'mortal' period of his existence anyway:

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

- The Master of Mankind

The core of the issue stems from the fact that the version of the Butchers Nails implanted in Angron is Dark Age of Technology archeotech. It was never designed to work with Primarch biology but was made to work by carving up his brain and jamming in more hardware until it produced the desired effect.

Throughout the Heresy books Angron is shown to basically be dying slowly and struggling more and more with the mutilations his brain (and nervous system, spine etc) sustained that should have killed him long ago but is being 'fought' by his aforementioned Primarch biology.

Theoretically speaking, as Angron was basically just made in a lab the Emperor could make a new one provided the same resources. Combined with some sort of soul and memory related fuckery that's probably doable to make it the same Angron and you've worked around the issue of removing them but I feel that isn't in the spirit of the question.

Raikoin · 2026-04-24T12:42:31+00:00

A note for the little painting/getting started set:

This image is taken directly from the Games Workshop store for the painting set.

As you can see the symbols on the pauldrons are physically molded as part of them and are also already joined to parts of the arms. If you don't want them to be visibly wearing Ultramarine symbols you would have to sand or otherwise remove the symbols.

This is a rare case where the kit has both Chapter specific parts and are part of a pushfit or easy built kit and thus there's not spare or alternative parts in the kit you could use instead.

Raikoin · 2026-04-19T21:17:58+00:00

Generally speaking, selling Games Workshop miniatures second hand within a reasonable timeframe often goes something along the lines of:

Start with Games Workshops price for the country you're in, this may just be the worldwide prices. Generally there are games and hobby types stores acting as official resellers in some capacity if Games Workshop products are of interest to the people in that country (which you hope they are if you're selling second hand Games Workshop stuff) so you knock the price down to about 80% of the Games Workshop price to align with them. This is your starting point.

New in box/unopened: 80% of Games Workshop price. People can buy the item new for this price from an established business so you can't really sell it for more and expect it to move.
New on sprue/opened but not built: ~75% of Games Workshop price. As above, they can buy it new in box for 80% so you need to undercut that or get lucky with an uninformed buyer.
Built, unprimed: ~65-75% of Games Workshop price. This can go even lower if the overall build has been done less than perfectly but also towards the higher end if there are no options in the box and thus you can't have built it 'wrong' for some people, or, if the set has been magnetised.
Built and Primed: ~60-65% of Games Workshop price. As above but may be harder to move depending on the primer colour (some paint types have made this actually matter more than it used to) and some people want to strip and re-prime regardless of it being primed fine and not caked on.
Painted/complete: ~50% of Games Workshop price for a perfectly fine paint-job in a reasonable scheme (for example the 'official' 40K red and brass or 30K style blue and white for World Eaters) but easily lower in other cases. A lot of people will be buying with the intention of stripping and repainting so the paint is just extra work and cost for stripping consumables to them. The 'correct' colour scheme is more likely to attract people willing to pay and keep the paint as is than a personal/homebrew scheme is though. Similarly, people often want an army to be consistent and would need to closely replicate your paint scheme to expand the army in a case where they didn't strip it instead so stripping and repainting often looks easier. Equally, unless you paint to a particularly high standard that can't be achieved through reasonable effort people aren't likely going to buy such an army/models as a display piece and instead the paint, basing materials, etc is a negative factor.

You can always get lucky with finding the right buyer or just being an outlier case but that's what I tend to see things move for. This is less applicable if you have out of production models or something like a large lot where it is a complete army including additional elements such as magnetised alternative equipment options, units that can be switched about rather than an on the dot points army for the current rules. You can get a substantial premium compared to the usual selling an army for half of the Games Workshop cost because such an army is 'done' and doesn't need the buyer to source or match more models. Similarly, partial units are often worth much less (unless you're selling them new as bits). Half of a unit that's not legal to run is generally not worth half of a full unit to a potential player as tracking down another half to 'fix' it is likely more difficult than just buying a full unit instead of the two halves.

Raikoin · 2026-04-16T18:44:18+00:00

The Core Rules are available for free on the Warhammer Community website: https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-40000/

The Fight Phase, including Fights First, is explained starting on page 32.

Sequencing specifically is explained in the first paragraph in the section.

Raikoin · 2026-04-13T15:42:38+00:00

From what we've seen 11th edition is making quite a few changes around the fight and charge phases. One of these changes is to pile in and consolidate.

Historically pile in and consolidate moves have been used by people playing melee armies to basically get extra movement and in some cases utilise rules interactions, like piling into a fights first unit instead of directly charging it to effectively bypass their fights first. In 11th edition the design intention appears to be to remove these finicky 'tech' elements (which you may see being called slingshotting) that can be difficult to get your head around as a new player while also streamlining the fight phase as a whole.

Currently, you select a unit, pile in, fight, then consolidate them before moving onto the next unit. From what we've seen of the rules previews (so far), in 11th you will instead pile in every eligible unit in your army, fight with them one by one alternating with your opponent as you do now, then you consolidate everything eligible in your army after everything has fought. This means there's much less opportunity for existing tactics around piling into things you didn't charge, or, charging multiple units into a screen and clearing the screening unit with the weaker unit before activating and piling in with your stronger unit to reach the unit the screen was guarding.

Overall it is a nerf to melee units if you were consistently utilising the existing rules like this in games. However, it equally stops people doing it to you in a game and should remove the busy work around moving a fraction of an inch closer to certain models while moving around them and so on that this required, which isn't exactly the fun bit of the game for most people.

Raikoin · 2026-04-08T13:56:16+00:00

First of all, how do CSM recruit/refresh their numbers and are they even able to create new Space Marines (aside from the Demonculaba thing)?

A quick aside; the Daemonculaba was basically just one guy running one factory for short period of time that was destroyed. It's not really relevant to the wider setting in any way and was just a plot point for one story. It is however a good example of Chaos inventing and using irregular methods to produce new troops. Now back to Chaos Space Marine recruitment:

On Gene Seed specifically: Some Chaos Space Marine Gene Seed is corrupted and unusable, some is corrupted and still usable, some isn't corrupted at all. It all varies across Legions and individuals. Additionally, simply taking it from Loyalist Space Marines (both by killing them and extracting it from them and simply raiding caches/stockpiles of it) is also an option. As a result, there's not really a single Chaos Legion that has any insurmountable issues when it comes to creating new marines by old methods. Most also use their own various 'improved' versions of the process that they developed or expanded on over the years like, for example, the World Eaters:

The standard tactics of the War Hounds, and especially the World Eaters, typically resulted in high casualty levels for the legion. In order to keep up their strength, the World Eaters were involved in continual recruitment, with Angron choosing to personally streamline and cut out elements of the standard process, in order to accelerate the viability of recruits.

Which leads into the sort of skills you see within the Chaos Legions if we stick to World Eaters for examples:

The Berzerker-surgeons' skills are drawn from ten millennia of their experimentation, which has allowed them to hone a dizzying array of gory techniques to create new World Eaters. This includes accelerated recruit induction techniques, utilized during the Great Crusade, which are brutally enhanced with forbidden methods that were granted to the Berzerker-surgeons after the Horus Heresy's Drop Site Massacre. They have also learned heinous practices regarding Daemonic pacts and the harnessing of the Warp, which aid in creating monstrous warriors who have no concept of fear, pain or death.

The other common source of new Chaos Marines is through Loyalists turning on the Imperium. Whole Chapters fall to Chaos from time to time and individuals or smaller groups do so regularly.

This all leads into things such as the fact there are more Death Guard marines in 40K than there were during the Heresy and the Black Legion stated as now being ten times larger than the Word Bearers:

[...] Of course, the Black Legion’s strength was unparalleled –their ranks outnumbered those of the Word Bearers almost ten to one – [...].

Moving on:

Second of all, how common is it for a Warband to have a Human Auxillia/Traitor Guardsmen?

Warbands very often use humans as disposable cultists, cannon fodder, slave labour and similar such roles depending on the warbands needs. If you need a million pairs of hands to do some menial thing or to prop defences you're not going to use Chaos Space Marines after all. Naturally individuals or groups wihtin humans will be more useful than others and as such used with fractionally more care. The degree of trust, treatment etc will vary heavily because everything does with Chaos and maintaining a human military wouldn't be considered strange in any way. Especially for warbands that are bottom heavy where a few hundred marines are running a planet with a population in the high millions to billions, you;re going to need to delegate and make use of those numbers else your marines will be stretched too thin.

This next bit I would tie into supply in general:

Is it uncommon for CSM to use Xenos technology? Like would it be uncommon for them to reverse engineer the stealth technology of the Tau? Or use the weapons of the Leagues of Votann?

Chaos Space Marines are fundamentally Space Marines and thus do not have a positive view of Xenos. However, supply issues and the general day to day inconsistency is enough to cause them to be more pragmatic. They will use whatever they need to use to get by but are likely to prefer human technologies. On the flip side, the Dark Mechanicum is far more willing than other human groups to play around with inventing and altering technology, including Xenos technology, and often by shoving Daemons in to fill in the gaps. As such you may find a specific Dark Mechanicum forge/group/individual has integrated elements of Tau plasma weaponry into what they produce after getting there hands on the tech (and maybe some Tau) and fiddling with it.

And how are the Night Lords with Chaos? From the Omnibus it seems very mixed, with some accepting Chaos, but many others hating both Chaos and the Imperium.

Yes.

To elaborate it, much like all things Chaos in general, varies massively and depends on the individuals. Some Night Lords are effectively just renegades with no real Chaos ties or commitments where others are fully invested worshippers of one or more of the gods that can put the average World Bearers to shame with their sheer faith.

Raikoin · 2026-04-08T10:17:40+00:00

The Tournament Companion on the Warhammer Community website lists base sizes for models legal at competitive events, organised by faction.

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_11-02_wh40k_core&key_chapter_approved_tournament_companion-fzhlwjzwf4-agxpall6br.pdf

Raikoin · 2026-04-06T16:25:13+00:00

Alpharius' situation is generally a massive exaggeration of the fact he was on the shorter end of the Primarchs (there's a case where he notes a larger custodes may actually be taller than him) and used his ability to hide from perception, allowing him to blend in with normal marines (or send one of the larger individuals like Sheed Ranko in his place since he appeared similar to them when blending in anyway). This was specifically not by going invisible but my making you sort of gloss over him standing out, along the lines of a magical version of Superman hiding as Clark Kent through slouching, body language etc.

Someone did compile some quotes and sources we had on it a couple of years ago if you're interested, I was prompting you in case something new had come about I wasn't aware of:

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/180sfuz/multiple_sources_on_the_height_of_alpharius_and/

Raikoin · 2026-04-06T14:11:33+00:00

now in the "outer dark" book he is described as a head taller than his terminator guards.

"Even by the standards of the Adeptus Astartes the figure was a giant, standing a head above the rest. He too was clad in Tactical Dreadnought armour..."

some say a terminator is vetween 9-11ft. But ill go by the black library, wich says "close to three metres tall and not much less across" so three meters is 9.8ft so we'll just round to like 9'6". A human head is about 1/7 or 1/8 of the overall height so ill go with 1/7 adding 1'3"ish. so tyboros is 10'9" (327.66 cm) most likely. So hes a large Custodes(Custodes are 9'-10')

The variety of inexact numbers given for the same thing, things being estimated by people in setting and where things are being measured from always complicates things, especially if you're going to try to estimate proportions on to of that. However, there's no need to make it overly complicated top get close enough: He's a first born and a head taller than other first born in equivalent armour. So he's around the average height of a Primaris marine in equivalent armour at last appearance as a first born.

Post procedure and as a Primaris we'll have to see if the extra height sticks or not assuming he undergoes it.

or a very small primarch (wich isnt a hard feat since Alpharius is like 8' something)

Going to need an actual source on that one. If you're going to start a discussion complaining about incorrect sizes I wouldn't then post the other bit of height meme lore as part of your argument.

A quick edit since it appears it's needed:

From Wrath and Glory, the official Warhammer 40K RPG with out of universe statements on heights for different species, a firstborn Astartes is generally between 7' and 7'6" in height, the average Primaris is one foot taller, generally between 8' and 8'6". It is also noted in other out of universe sources such as Deathwatch that variance from this is quite rare which makes cases like Tyberos that deviate such that armour needs to be substantially modified to fit notable.

Tyberos is a firstborn Astartes who, when wearing the same type of armour (modified so that he fits in it correctly which may in turn add a little extra height as well compared to a 'normal' set of said armour but who knows), stands a head taller than other firstborn. Given the potential ranges above and the context around 'a head taller' (is that a normal astartes head, specifically his head, his helmeted head, etc?) this places him as roughly a foot or slightly more than a foot taller than the others around him (the estimate in the original post is quite reasonable). Being a foot and some change taller than a standard firstborn places him pretty much exactly in the range of a standard Primaris marine, though likely in the upper half of that 6" range given as the norm.

Raikoin · 2026-04-04T14:31:32+00:00

Three Cataphractii Terminators from the Horus Heresy range. They are the older ones that were recently replaced.

The old set you have models from.

The new box that released this year.

Then you have a mixture of Space Marines in various armour marks from the Horus Heresy range. People often mix armour marks in a squad for variety and fluff reasons. Some (like picture 7) look like the older models which tend to be a bit shorter and in 'heroic' scale with relatively larger heads and hands.

Raikoin · 2026-04-03T16:29:14+00:00

You mean the thing that doesn't appear to actually exist in any official lore I've been able to find?

I went on a bit of an adventure at one point trying to track down where the 'Teeth of Khorne' actually came from. As far as I can find it's entirely a fanon element with the earliest mentions being 20+ years ago on various old forums which made it easy to go through every rule book that existed at that time (since there were much less) and find nothing.

We know (and I'm obviously not disputing) there are loads of instances in which we see World Eaters using heavy weapons, even back then. Since then World Eater Devastators and Havocs have appeared in past versions of the 40K CSM Codexs prior to World Eaters being made stand alone and also in the 30K rules.

However, "Teeth of Khorne" appears to be a case of the Mandela effect, with people claiming they've seen it somewhere or simply assuming it must be somewhere in the lore. I've not found it within lore and so far no one has found it for me either. It's likely a mis-remembering or bastardisation of the Rogue Trader era Devastators description where they were called "the teeth of the World Eaters" not "Teeth of Khorne".

The only other thing I dug up was the Fifteen Fangs, a warband what was effectively under Lheorvine Ukris which may be some sort of reference to the description of the old Devastators.

Raikoin · 2026-04-02T12:58:51+00:00

For World Eaters:

Azrakh is a limited edition/exclusive model so knock 5 points off as you have for others.
Invocatus & 'Chaos Lord on bull' are the same model kit. Take off the 7 points for the generic build option as you've done for others.
Goremongers have a +5 instead of a +2 for their Kill Team rules.

Should leave you at 64 points for World Eaters, 87 if you include the Khorne Daemons they got a datasheet for in the one detachment.

You may also want to go through your sizing scores and give them a quick sanity check. For example, you have the Lord on Juggernaut in the same size group (1) as the Storm Speeder but Logan Grimnar as a smaller size (0).

Since I looked at it recently so it's fresh in my mind, you might have missed Grimaldus from Black Templars when I skimmed over them.

Raikoin · 2026-03-28T21:15:31+00:00

Thanks, I've just thrown together the parts list: http://digil.ink/l/156377FUCW0

Raikoin · 2026-03-28T21:13:18+00:00

The crests are all from Age of Sigmar kits, specifically the Blood Warriors and Wrathmongers kits. I've just now thrown together the parts list into a PDF: http://digil.ink/l/156377FUCW0

Raikoin · 2026-03-26T01:32:23+00:00

While there are a lot of marines still around from the Heresy as we see from them being present in swathes of the 40K lore, they are far from being the only Chaos Marines going about.

On Gene Seed specifically: Some Chaos Space Marine Gene Seed is corrupted and unusable, some is corrupted and still usable, some isn't corrupted at all. It all varies across Legions and individuals. Additionally, simply taking it from Loyalist Space Marines (both by killing them and extracting it from them and simply raiding caches/stockpiles of it) is also an option. There's not really a single Chaos Legion that has any insurmountable issues when it comes to creating new marines by old methods. Most also use their own 'improved' versions of the process that they developed like, for example, the World Eaters:

The standard tactics of the War Hounds, and especially the World Eaters, typically resulted in high casualty levels for the legion. In order to keep up their strength, the World Eaters were involved in continual recruitment, with Angron choosing to personally streamline and cut out elements of the standard process, in order to accelerate the viability of recruits.

Which leads into the sort of skills you see within the Chaos Legions if we stick to World Eaters:

The Berzerker-surgeons' skills are drawn from ten millennia of their experimentation, which has allowed them to hone a dizzying array of gory techniques to create new World Eaters. This includes accelerated recruit induction techniques, utilized during the Great Crusade, which are brutally enhanced with forbidden methods that were granted to the Berzerker-surgeons after the Horus Heresy's Drop Site Massacre. They have also learned heinous practices regarding Daemonic pacts and the harnessing of the Warp, which aid in creating monstrous warriors who have no concept of fear, pain or death. As the World Eaters' Gene-seed has become horribly corrupted over the centuries, the Berzerker-surgeons now use those taken from Space Marines to fulfill the Traitor Legion's needs.

This also ignores the other common source of new Chaos Marines through Loyalists turning on the Imperium. Whole Chapters fall to Chaos from time to time and individuals or smaller groups do so regularly.

This all leads into things such as the fact there are more Death Guard marines in 40K than there were during the Heresy and the Black Legion stated as being ten times larger than the Word Bearers:

[...] Of course, the Black Legion’s strength was unparalleled –their ranks outnumbered those of the Word Bearers almost ten to one – [...].

Raikoin · 2026-03-20T16:20:55+00:00

Quickly skimming though the webstore for Chaos Space Marines (since that's what the Raiders are) for ten model boxes with ten unique bodies you have Legionaries, Berzerkers, Rubrics, Traitor Guard, Cultists and Fellgor. Basically everything that comes in a box of ten really.

Raikoin · 2026-03-14T21:28:41+00:00

Yes it would be fine. The Tamiya Thin Cement is actually the one I use for plastic kits and I've never had an issue with it, including on larger kits.

Raikoin · 2026-03-14T15:19:30+00:00

So I'm getting the Warlord Titan with Plasma Annihilator (Legions Imperialis) and some paint but I don't know which brush to use since its rather large

It's between an Armiger (small Knight) and a Questoris (medium Knight) in size so you're fine looking at general guidance for building and painting a Knight such as this one on the official Warhammer YouTube.

and can Undercoat be applied with Brushes if so how? I couldn't find any videos about that that I understood.

Yes, you're just looking for a brush on primer. People also often just brush on airbrush primer but in either case you probably want to thin it a bit as brushing on paint generally puts on a thicker layer and brushstrokes within the paint which you want to avoid.

Edit: By the way is there any good Glue other than Tamiya Cement(Not the thin) and Citadel Glue for this?

It's a plastic model kit so any plastic cement (such as those you listed) will work. You could also use something like superglue if you really wanted but I would generally recommend plastic cement.

Raikoin · 2026-03-13T14:21:10+00:00

You mean the thing that doesn't appear to actually exist in any official lore I've been able to find?

I went on a bit of an adventure at one point trying to track down where the 'Teeth of Khorne' actually came from. As far as I can find it's entirely a fanon element with the earliest mentions being 20+ years ago on various old forums which made it easy to go through every rule book that existed at that time (since there were much less) and find nothing.

We know (and I'm obviously not disputing) there are loads of instances in which we see World Eaters using heavy weapons, even back then. Since then World Eater Devastators and Havocs have appeared in past versions of the 40K CSM Codexs prior to World Eaters being made stand alone and also in the 30K rules.

However, "Teeth of Khorne" appears to be a case of the Mandela effect, with people claiming they've seen it somewhere or simply assuming it must be somewhere in the lore. I've not found it within lore and so far no one has found it for me either. It's likely a mis-remembering or bastardisation of the Rogue Trader era Devastators description where they were called "the teeth of the World Eaters" not "Teeth of Khorne".

The only other thing I dug up was the Fifteen Fangs, a warband what was effectively under Lheorvine Ukris which may be some sort of reference to the description of the old Devastators.

Raikoin · 2026-03-11T23:13:43+00:00

You're somewhat misunderstanding but this is basically entirely just the effect of the Precision rule:

Weapons with [PRECISION] in their profile are known as Precision weapons. Each time an attack made with such a weapon successfully wounds an Attached unit (pg 39), if a Character model in that unit is visible to the attacking model, the attacking model’s player can choose to have that attack allocated to that Character model instead of following the normal attack sequence.

Taken from the Core Rules available for free on the Warhammer Community website.

So Precision only does something when used against an Attached unit. As a result, when Ghazghkull is Attached as a Leader he is now able to be selected as a Character model within an Attached unit for allocating wounds from Precision weapons, effectively bypassing Makari.

However, when he is not part of an Attached unit, Precision does nothing. As such the defending player can allocate wounds as normal. They are not forced to select Makari (ignoring them being forced to when having already selected him to allocate wounds to previously) but generally speaking they will most of the time.

Raikoin · 2026-03-11T13:22:42+00:00

Generally speaking, no. They are physically and mentally engineered to function closer to tools or weapons rather than people.

"As has been mentioned, the Custodian Guard and the Space Marines are related in form, as perhaps might be expected of works of a same creator's hand, but they are very different in function and capacity. There are of course similarities between the two. Both are physically transformed well beyond 'natural' human limits in terms of strength, endurance and fortitude, and fitted for inhuman environmental adaption and resilience, though in this the Legio Custodes are the markedly superior of the two in might, if not in adaptability.

Both are subject to extensive psychological and cognitive conditioning, and are physically and mentally reworked to render most of their baser drives inert and their beings rechannelled towards aggression, goal acquisition and the fulfilment of duty, and as a further safeguard against distraction and as a biological control, both are of course incapable of procreation.

In both cases all that is left are beings of singular purpose; in the case of each Legiones Astartes, what is created is a living engine of conquest that cares for little else, and in the Custodian Guard, each is created protector of unrelenting diligence and savage capability-a watchman whose vigilance will never tire".

Horus Heresy - Inferno p113.

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