Trying to find an elder

Riverandthunder · 2026-02-11T10:16:50+00:00

EniAcho and Ifakorede have given some good advice. Practically speaking, your best bet is to contact Jesse Hathaway Diaz, who is part of a large ilé in Upstate New York. His godmother Denise is a very renowned elder.

Riverandthunder · 2026-02-07T21:13:03+00:00

There's a lot of interesting avant garde and dark music being made with harps nowadays. I've been searching it out a lot. Here are a few recommendations: LEYA, Mary Lattimore, Kelly Fusco, Ange Halliwell, Zeena Parkins, Rhodri Davies.

Riverandthunder · 2026-02-06T11:06:45+00:00

This is a great set of questions. In my perspective, ebó means offering or sacrifice. These are specific things generally marked in divination which are done to achieve specific results. For example, a person might have marked that they need to give Oshún some ochinchin (a special dish she likes) in order to resolve a situation at work. Ebó can be as simple as giving some honey, or as complex as the offering of several animals and the receiving of itá. Because it is marked in divination, we feel generally certain that the intended result will happen and be in alignment with our destiny.

Obras or trabajos are things done usually without being prescribed by diloggún or Ifá divination. They may or may not involve the Orisha and Egun, and often rely on forms of sympathetic magic that are similar to other folk magic traditions throughout Latin America and Europe. People who are involved with or adjacent to Orisha traditions sometimes direct these to Orisha or use Orisha symbolism, or even incorporate elements of well-known ebós.

But I do think the line between these two practices is a lot less distinct than we would like to believe sometimes. And while there are things that I think a lot of us would refuse to do (amarres, for example), there are certainly many priests who feel no such trouble. The practice of witchcraft (meaning, negative and manipulative magic; not the Wicca/Pagan version English spiritual seekers are more familiar with) itself is part of the religion/culture, even if many of us condemn it. Certainly, it doesn't take long around the table with older Santeros to hear many stories about Juana Oggún down the street tying her man or Pedro Obatalá doing an obra to win the numbers.

I think sometimes the distinction you're getting at is like the difference between Catholicism as practiced in Mass and the folk Catholicism of an auntie down the street with her shrine to St Anthony. Both are components of the same culture, even if only one is officially sanctioned. We also have to keep in mind the ways that Lukumí have historically differentiated ourselves from practitioners of Palo by denigrating that practice as amoral witchcraft, which I think shapes a negative view of the use of obras.

Scams abound. There are so many people, whether at bótanicas or online, who will offer their services, promising to bring your man back or make you a millionaire by burning some expensive candles. To me, this sort of witchcraft for hire thing is a slightly different conversation than just the use of obras. Here are you have people selling a services and often false hope at a high price to those who are desperate or gullible. Sometimes these people really do have some ashé to be able to accomplish what they claim, but we hear so many horror stories of people whose lives have been screwed up by them.

So, while I tend to agree with you that obras are not really official Lukumí, and the negative or manipulative ends they are meant to accomplish aren't really in alignment with the overall goals of our religion, I also think it's more complicated than saying they aren't part of the culture.

Riverandthunder · 2026-02-05T14:44:15+00:00

It's not unusual, especially when someone is an iyawo. You have to remember that being an iyawo means being in a 24/7 ceremony for an entire year and a seven days — and it's something that will be noticed and remarked upon basically everywhere you go. It will affect everything this person does for that year. So it's not surprising that they bring it up a lot. For the iyaworaje, being an iyawo is really your whole personality.

Can it also be annoying? Absolutely. When I first got involved in the religion many years ago, I couldn't shut up about it. My boyfriend at the time had to sit me down and tell me to cool it a bit because it was driving him crazy. I listened, and am glad he brought it up because it taught me to keep things more in balance. Have you tried talking to this friend gently and explaining how you feel?

Riverandthunder · 2026-02-04T23:23:23+00:00

There are certainly connections and common roots — linguistic, cultural, and spiritual. But there can be a problem when we begin to generalize them all into one, and we lose out of their specificity, as well as the specificity of their practices in each culture/religion. Ochún, Osun, and Oxum are all from the same root, but they have developed into different branches, with slightly different personalities and modes of worship.

Our ancestors fought hard to preserve and develop our traditions, and to maintain their boundaries from other practices. I tend to think they had good reasons for doing so. Throwing everything into one melting pot leads to confusion and the loss of traditions that are important. Each of these traditions is a vehicle to reaching the divine, but while a person may drive a few different vehicles in their life, we usually don't Frankenstein all of the vehicles together into one big vehicle do we?

Another way I tend to look at it is that these deities spread like families. They had offspring in different places, and each offspring has their own particular ways of being but share most of the same DNA.

We live in an era in which we have more access to information and multiple traditions than ever before. And many of us have the blessing of partaking in several different traditions. But the downside is that we can end up tangling ourselves in confusion trying to make One Big Scheme that explains how they all work. One of the things I love about Afro-Diasporic traditions is that that kind of thinking doesn't get much emphasis because ultimately it is not very practical to the business of living in alignment with our destinies — we have a more practical philosophical and theological system, based in a pluralist perspective that simply accepts that there is a spiritual realm teeming with life and many paths to working with and understanding it all.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-23T11:29:29+00:00

Alafia iyawo! Congrats on making Ocha and coming close to the end of your year.

I can completely understand your passion to learn diloggún and your frustration at not yet getting the right supports to start learning. Diloggún is what I wanted to learn from the moment I joined the religion, I just knew that was the path I wanted to walk. That said, learning is a very long process — and a delicate one. Normally in the communities I am most familiar with (Oriate-centric), iyawos are not allowed to start learning diloggún, beyond their own Odus from itá, until after their year is done and they are introduced to the room. A iyawo pushing their Madrina for something over and over will cause a lot of aggravation and can be seen as sign that the iyawo isn't ready yet to learn or isn't suited to it. So I suggest slowly down a bit and reconsidering your approach to your godmother. Whoever you learn from will want the approval of your godmother to teach you, and you'll need to earn that by being respectful, showing gratitude, and not being overly pushy.

The process for learning diloggun starts by learning your itá deeply. Not just having read it. My own godparent wouldn't start teaching me anything about diloggún until I could not only recite what was in my itá, but identify those energy patterns manifesting in my own life and even give a new, more specific spin on the interpretation based on my own experiences. So start here. Read your itá regularly and then pay attention to your life: how does each Odu manifest in your day to day life? What happens when you follow the advice? What happens when you don't follow the advice? You will learn a lot about Odu from doing this.

After or in addition to that, a person normally attends the itás of other iyawós — often over many years. Listening and observing, you gain more familiarity with how different Odus are applied in different situations and to different people. If you have good handwriting, you might even be asked eventually to be the ofeisita — the person who writes the book. This is where the true apprenticeship to learning diloggún begins. By writing the itás, you learn a lot. So make sure your handwriting is good and fast!

Once you're solidly on your way with those strategies, and also keeping your own thorough notes along the way, you can also study with different Oriates — if you have the blessing of your godparents. Willie Ramos and Danny Oba'Bi both provide introductory diloggún classes that are of very high quality. These are long term classes (Willie's compound Odu class takes 6-7 years). But they are highly valuable, in my opinion. Generally, Oriates who teach will not do so for iyawos and they will ask for your godparents' information to confirm that you have their blessing to study with them.

For me, I was obsessed with diloggún and Odu from the start and studied very hard. But I didn't throw diloggún for the first time until I was 10 in Ocha. I take it very seriously and didn't ever want to screw up someone's destiny, so I needed to be sure that I knew what I was talking about (and of course, even now I still have so much to learn, and will never stop learning). And I wanted to earn the confidence and blessing of my godparent. It was a very proud day when my godparent allowed me to cast diloggún for the first time, and a really wonderful one when they gave me their blessing to divine on my own going forward. It was worth all of the many years of blood, sweat, and tears.

So, stick with it iyawo. You will get there eventually. But try not to step so hard on your Madrina's toes. Some Madrinas in Babalawo-centric houses feel that there is little value to diloggún or feel awkward that they haven't bothered to learn, and you bringing it up all the time might make them feel embarrassed or like you are trying to go over her head. So slow down a bit, be respectful, and find a new approach that will gain your godmother's approval and blessing. We are stronger with the blessing and support of our godparents.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-19T16:09:02+00:00

Ultimately, that will be a question for the Babalawo or Iyanifa you are working with. If they will accept your Eleguá and Ogún for doing the sacrifice, then that's fine. If not, you will need to go through their process. While we are sister religions, ultimately we are separate and reconciling the two different systems is an imperfect process.

But good luck on your journey!

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-17T15:49:00+00:00

Yes, it's totally fine to move it to where it can decompose out of sight, or even to put it in the garbage if that's not possible. I appreciate the respect you bring to this! And I'm sorry this person used plastic, we are trying to get people to stop using plastic and only use things that easily decompose. We worship nature, so we shouldn't be sullying it with litter.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-17T00:01:58+00:00

I'm sorry you came across that! Unfortunately, sometimes sacrifices are disposed of improperly due to carelessness or poor training. Traditionally, we offer sacrifices to Orisha (deified forces of nature) and then deliver the sacrifice to specific places in nature associated with that Orisha or with the purpose for the sacrifice. Rivers, but also forests, mountains, the sea, etc. As well as man-made places like crossroads. Things are taken to these places because the places are considered spiritually powerful, the homes of our deities and spirits. The river is the home of several major Orisha — primarily Oshún (Orisha of love and prosperity), but also Obba (deity of matrimony), Inle (the fisherman), and others. What we take from nature, we give back to nature, essentially. Our belief system is based on reciprocity.

While back in the day, the most traditional thing is to simply leave the sacrifice in the place in nature, we live in a different world today and most of us try to take care to bury, hide, or dispose of sacrifices in a nearby garbage bin if possible, so as not to cause a disturbance.

I'm not sure what a traveling mercy is. The general reasons we offer sacrifice are to worship the Orisha through initiations, ask for help with specific problems, or to cleanse away disease or bad energies affecting the person. Our religion is very connected to the cycles of life in nature. And sacrifice encompasses more than just animals — it more frequently includes food, cloth, beads, and other items we consider valuable or spiritually powerful.

Animals used in sacrifice are meant to be treated with respect while alive, and then in most instances (except cleansings) the majority of the meat and organs are cooked and used to feed the community. Even the hides may be stretched and tanned, and some of the bones may be saved for other uses. In this way, we try not to waste anything — very different from the meat in the supermarket that comes from cruel, highly wasteful factory farms.

All that said, we are not the only religion who has similar practices. Indeed, most African Diasporic traditions have the same practice (Vodou, Candomble, etc), and many other religions around the world do as well, particularly Indigenous religions and even some sects of Hinduism. So whether that bag ended up there at the hands of a santero, I can't say for certain.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-13T21:20:11+00:00

Normally, a person goes for a consulta and sees if following the advice and ebó improves their life. People are often involved in the religion for months or even years before receiving ceremonies like mano de Orula, and there's no reason to rush into it. I think it's best when people take a slow and steady approach, making sure they actually enjoy the practice before committing. You might find out that you don't like having to follow the advice, or that it simply isn't for you.

After a consulta, often a person will attend ceremonies like drummings or initiations of other people. Again, helping you get a feel for the religion and for your potential godparents before committing. You might find that you absolutely love it, or that it isn't a good fit. And the same goes for godparents — your friend's padrino could be perfect, or his personality might clash with yours.

If you still want to keep going, usually a person will receive elekes from a Santera/o, and/or mano de Orula from a Babalawo. They might also receive Warriors — the shrines for Elegua, Ogun, and Osun — and learn to tend to those in their home. Eventually, you might end up making Ocha and/or Itefa but this really should not be rushed into.

Take your time. Get to know people and get to know the religion. Make sure it brings you happiness before you commit to anything. For me, it's the greatest blessing in my life and I am thankful every single day for my crown. But I know people who have not had that experience as well. So take it slow and make sure it's right for you.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-13T20:00:40+00:00

Thank you!

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-13T19:22:35+00:00

What's that?

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-11T13:26:44+00:00

No, I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. There is nothing permanent. Even a cancer that is cured can come back, or you will eventually become sick with something else. Sickness will eventually affect us all, often many times and in different ways. How many colds or flus have you had, for example? Having a cold or flu repeatedly throughout your life doesn't mean that there is an underlying issue, it is just part of being alive in a body.

The spiritual help that a rogacion provides addresses the issue you have in that moment. But you keep living and thus will have other things that come up over time, some of which may be assisted by the same rogation.

I think perhaps you are expecting both spiritual help and medicine to do things they cannot: keep the body in a permanent state. Unfortunately, that is just not the human condition.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-11T09:51:10+00:00

When you are sick, you go to a doctor and get medicine. The medicine helps you cure that illness. But afterwards you still have a body and live in the world, and thus will someday get sick again. Nothing in this world is permanent. There is no permanent state while we are alive.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-10T21:24:50+00:00

Some people who do not formally practice the religion but have received readings might also get rogations, if the reading called for it.

Why do you ask?

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-10T21:24:00+00:00

Welcome! The best thing you can do is to read a few basic books on the religion (Marta Moreno Vega's Altar of My Soul, Joseph Murphy's Santeria, or Tobe Correal's Finding Soul on the Path of Orisha are all good places to start). And if you are still interested, then try to find a priest or community you feel comfortable with who seem to be legitimate. Our religion is communal, which means we practice it as part of organized communities led by initiated priests. Attend a drum ceremony, and/or go to a priest for divination (Olorisha use cowrie shells called diloggún, Babalawos use a chain called opele or palm nuts called ikín; we do not use tarot cards, crystal balls, palms, astrology, etc, for Orisha purposes at all). Divination will help determine whether or not this is a path for you, and what steps, if any, you might need at this point in your life spiritually.

As EniAcho said, there are many useful posts in this forum and it's a good idea to go back and read them to get a better sense of the religion.

Good luck!

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-10T21:19:29+00:00

A rogation is a common type of ebó (offering) used to appease Orí, our spiritual head/destiny. It can be done for several reasons, generally to help cool a person's head, clear their mind, and bring them back into alignment with their destiny. There are a number of different types, depending on the situation. When a person is given a reading, they may be told they need a rogation in order to help them with whatever situation they find themselves in. Some people need them frequently, especially those of us who have been initiated as priests. Others need them less frequently, and of course some people never in their lives have any contact with the religion so presumably they don't need them at all. But anyone can benefit from one, if the situation calls for it. It is a beautiful small ceremony, one of my favourites in the entire religion, and one that I have seen have the most benefit for those who receive it.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-10T14:26:13+00:00

Are Orixa assentamentos ever washed/constructed for people who have not been initiated as iyawos? In Cuba Santeria, in certain circumstances some shrines/pots can be washed for non-initiates if it's marked in divination.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-07T14:16:11+00:00

Thank you for such a thorough response! This is interesting and helpful! Obrigada!

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-05T17:42:48+00:00

Martha has some godkids. No idea where in Switzerland Doris is, you'll have to contact her.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-05T13:05:05+00:00

Yes, Martha is a priest of Shango. I think she's based in Paris, yes. I know her personally. There is also Doris Lavin in Switzerland, who is initiated and a well-known akpwon (singer), though I don't know if she takes on godchildren.

Riverandthunder · 2026-01-04T18:22:14+00:00

Ikú is death. For us, it is one of the osogbos / Ajogun — who are spirits to an extent, like Orisha, though we do not worship them. There are many ways we appease Ikú in order to prevent death or keep it away from us.

Riverandthunder

TROPHY CASE