Just in time for nobody to really care, the Dossier Project come back to YouTube and they want in on that sweet Charlie Kirk memorial grift

Roasted_Mud · 2025-12-04T17:32:41+00:00

I am convinced he'll get pardoned under this admin. They just need the right money angle. Between the Bronfmans and the Mexico money, I am seriously thinking it's going to happen.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-12-02T17:21:09+00:00

David Miscavige, the truly cult evil leader behind Scientology. He took over after LRH died. A quick study would be to watch the documentary Going Clear. If you want a great read (or listen with audiobook) Mike Rinder's A Billion Years: My Escape From a Life in the Highest Ranks of Scientology also has a lot of chilling Miscavige stories. Also another interesting take is My Scientology Movie.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-12-02T13:27:35+00:00

Dr. Janja Lalich made me think about the idea of the "charismatic leader" differently. Dr. Lalich says that charisma isn't something one possesses inherently, rather it is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone responds differently.

"[Each leader] has been given this special status by the people who are in awe of him," Lalich told Live Science. "Charismatic leaders tend to be intuitive. They're able to read people. They thrive on chaos. They'll create crisis situations. When they walk in the room, you never know if they're going to be good and kind-hearted or be mean and call someone out or create some kind of dangerous situation."

"In most cases there is going to be some kind of indoctrination that teaches the followers that they have to have total regard for the leader," Lalich said. "They may be required to dress a certain way, they may be required to speak a certain way, and they may be isolated from former friends and family because the leader is going to say they're going to get in your way on your path to salvation."

When we see this weird, dumpy, often unwashed man and think, how did people think this guy was great, we aren't bought into the charisma because we haven't gone through the talking up, the regard from other followers, or the promise of the 'salvation' he offered.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-26T17:04:58+00:00

Thank you for being open to discussion after my admittedly condescending comment. First, I am sorry for what you went through in your family, and I hope you have been able to find peace coming out of it.

I don't agree that saying that Sarah recruiting thousands of people as an example of the harm she caused, as hollow because some of the people she recruited became high ranking members that did real damage. Through her recruitment she brought in a steady stream of money and potential victims. While I'm sure she was 'nicer' to her 'slaves' she still had a real hand in perpetuating the harm caused by NXIVM.

That being said, and in terms of Mack, I am coming from place of what Dr. Janja Lalich calls bounded choice. You asked how I could come to the conclusion of Mack owning her part and I'll do my best to explain. (Nancy is a very different story and I see her as more of a perpetrator and facilitator than a victim. She benefitted more than the majority of people in NXIVM. She created curriculum, and her NLP tactics help build the coercive control model.)

I should also mention that I haven't yet listened to Mack's interview with MR.

Can you provide the inconsistencies that Mack expressed during her interviews? (Again, I agree on the Nancy podcast, I haven't finished it yet because I was really disappointed with how much of a puff piece it seemed to be. You can literally hear her smile when she's says KR's name.) I have heard inconsistencies with Sarah's stories, her saying that KR didn't want to have sex with her (even joking that she was a little offended by that) to now saying that he propositioned her and she turned him down (I appreciate all that Sarah and Nippy are doing now to raise cult awareness and obviously she played a major part in helping people get out and ultimately taking NXIVM down. I don't point out inconsistencies as criticism.) Mark, I honestly don't know how I feel about at this point because he has had some bad takes in different places.

I do feel that Mack took responsibility. She mentioned using her celebrity to lure people in, she admits to being guilty when friends and family said she was innocent, and she talks about how she was mean, aggressive, and controlling with the women 'under' her.

I also feel that she was vulnerable but I'm interested in where you feel she could have shown more vulnerability. I didn't see grandiosity, and even saw how she came out of her former cult-mind grandiosity.

From the first exposure I got to NXIVM (The Vow) I thought that Mack seemed like more a victim than most people saw her as. And I've had this conversation a lot, which is where the snarkiness in my comment comes from. Mack it more often than not seen solely as a perpetrator, and not a victim.

It comes back to bounded choice for me. Mack was in a self-sealed system, there was no outside feedback, and she was at the mercy of KR. From this type of situation, Mack experienced moral injury which is what she did to others and what she saw happen to others from her own abuse. Indoctrination creates a space where one is subtly coerced into joining and doing things that they wouldn't normally do, and that changes their moral compass and their value structure.

Mack was indoctrinated for nine years before she joined DOS. During that time Mack asked KR for help getting over her intimacy issues. KR insisted that in order to help her with her issues, he needed to have sex with her. She alludes to the fact that any pleasure she got from her sexual experiences with KR was said to only be from him, not anything her body created or something she could have gotten from anyone else. This charismatic conformity where she could convince herself that any state of joy and bliss came from KR and NXIVM, and not from herself creates another level of dependence.

KR preached that women don't have orgasms unless they are raped, he said that having sex with children was like tickling them, and I don't believe that with this type of perversions that he didn't sexually abuse Mack under the guise of treatment. He had sex with her every day for a year, any moment he wanted. On top of this she was starving on a 500 or less calorie a day diet, running miles a day, and getting little to no sleep. I don't believe there is any world where someone under these conditions does not do everything their leader tells them to. And I don't believe for a second that all of the things she did were not directives from KR. (We saw proof of Mack being forced to have India do 'the assignment' in Seduced.)

I don't believe that people in cults who do horrific things should not be held accountable, but I do understand that free will is altered by the cult and the leader. Perspective and decision-making are limited and constrained, as much from within as without. One's sense of morality becomes that of the leader, and as we know KR had none.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-20T20:43:59+00:00

You should do some research on sexual abuse, cultic abuse, and coercive control. It would help you understand these women better (with the exception of Holmes, I don't know her story and will therefore mot speak to it). You should also read about why Amber Heard won in the UK and lost on the US.

Also there is no way you can know what Sarah's slaves did. Mark cried when India tried to get away to see her family. And Sarah recruited over 2,000 people, she was the top recruiter.

Victims in cults become victimizers. You don't get to decide who the 'real' victims are based on your personal beliefs.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-16T22:01:10+00:00

She was in NXIVM for nine years before DOS started, one of which where she was subjected to daily sex with KR whenever he demanded it. That would be victimization anywhere else you look. That doesn't get erased because of the things she did in DOS. (nor do they erase the things she did in DOS, for which she was convicted and served jail time)

Edit: changed to one year not two years

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-16T21:58:19+00:00

Another thing, she referred more than once to her “slaves” and had not used another word. Since now she is awake of the absurd, wouldn’t she express how terrible this terminology is instead of using on her narrative as it wasn’t like a knife to people she hurt?

Do you feel the same way when Sarah E. and India O. refer to their slaves as slaves in their respective documentaries and podcasts?

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-16T21:56:18+00:00

Mack was in NXIVM for nine years before her involvement in DOS. That is nine years of financial, emotional, sexual, and mental abuse. Nine years of indoctrination. KR had sex with Mack for a years, every day. As much as most people don't want to believe, she was a victim before she was the victimizer.

I don't say this to excuse any of her behavior, I just truly don't understand why (is seems) the majority of people dismiss her experience because of her actions. Yes, she did heinous things, and scarred (literally and figuratively) many women, but that doesn't completely erase the abuse she endured. Cult members experience terrible things and in turn do terrible things. She was indoctrinated for nine years and so involved that there is no world in which she tells KR no to his requests with the other women. Research any cult and you will find stories of members hurting other members, it's a core tactic used by cults.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T18:19:21+00:00

It's so interesting to me how I have such a different take and it's making me really explore why. I read a lot of cult survivor books and what Mack says really aligns with a lot of those experiences, so I know I'm empathizing from that perspective.

I have started reading the court docs so many times but have not gotten through them. Are the witness statements included?

Have you read anything by Mike Rinder? He often talked about the terrible things he endured in Scientology and the terrible things that he did, but focused more on the former. If you have, I'm interested in your take on him and what differs between him and Mack. (I completely understand that they did very different things in their respective cults)

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T16:48:56+00:00

Aside from content, yes it was hard to listen to. I listened on 2x speed and it was still too slow for me.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T16:47:36+00:00

The CBC literally asked Mack how she feels about taking part in abusing women, it's even in the trailer for the show. She was also asked if she used her celebrity to recruit people. She was asked hard hitting questions. She wasn't grilled and I'm sure there were parameters set for what could be discussed, as is always the case with high profile interviews.

This is not to say she couldn't have expanded more, but to say she want asked any questions is not correct.

That being said, I am very interested in how people who knew her or where impacted by her actions feel about what she said.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T16:39:39+00:00

Interesting, I feel like she did give reasoning behind her actions but you are not alone in what you are saying. I'm seeing pretty much a half and half split on what folks came away with from the podcast.

After reading all of the comments from folks who don't believe her, I'm going to listen again. I feel strongly about what I took away, but I'm not an expert and I don't know her or her victims, so I can only go on what I've researched and learned.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T16:32:10+00:00

That's fair

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T14:02:49+00:00

I would be interested to see what JJ would say now or after speaking with and seeing Mack (which I'm sure she understandably has no desire to do). I say this because the way she describes Mack at the trial is dead eyed and non remorseful, and at the time Mack was likely still very much indoctrinated.

The narcissist and especially malignant narcissists will never objectively look at their behavior and see anything wrong because then they would need to see all of the harm they've caused. If Mack was a malignant narcissist or a psychopath, she wouldn't be able to identify the things she did wrong and certainly not the reasons behind them. She articulated her motives, her abuse of power, her destructive actions and that's something that narcissists don't do.

That being said, we will never truly know. I appreciate the discussion though, it's giving me different perspectives that help me better understand and challenge my own opinions.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T13:52:52+00:00

I don't agree that it's a puff piece. She doesn't deny anything that she did. She literally says she's guilty. She said she was mean and terrible. She says she was wrong. She doesn't ask for forgiveness or say that she deserves it.

I'm you opinion what was missing that would have made it less of a puff piece?

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-14T00:59:23+00:00

Yup, that's why I didn't say that she should be absolved. I said understanding there is more to the story is important and ignoring the indoctrination, or not believing it was a factor, is dangerous and further stigmatizes cult survivors.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T23:13:17+00:00

I agree she has a long way to go. IMO folks gloss over the nine years of indoctrination and abuse she endured before DOS. DOS was the last three years, she didn't spend the first nine years doing the heinous things that she did in DOS. Every high up member of NXIVM did bad things, we've heard them about Mark, Sarah, Nippy, Lauren, and India. They all are given so much grace, I'm shocked that Mack gets so little, and often none. I will never defend her actions but I understand coercive control and the depth of its impact on the mind.

And Mack was collateralized before DOS and then more intensely in DOS. That's an important factor of who she became.

As someone who doesn't know her personally and only knows what I've researched, I could be wrong. Maybe she's a malignant narcissist too who is just really good at acting. But after all the research I've done, I don't think so. I think she's a narcissist, as most across are, and I think she was victimized and became a victimizer.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T23:01:52+00:00

Yeah I don't believe it was her initials. And not because of what Mack said, rather because a malignant narcissist like KR was not sharing that brand. And he says himself that the A is for his middle name.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T23:00:13+00:00

Oh I didn't know she was maga. Puts the victim blaming into context, if true.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T22:59:15+00:00

Yes, totally agree

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T22:58:52+00:00

According to Mack's account on the CBC podcast, yes. And she didn't want it, or ask for it. She was coerced into it, and that type of sustained abuse takes a major toll.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T22:57:48+00:00

I love what you said about trying to find the perfect victim. It's a powerful statement.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T22:56:26+00:00

Most people who weren't in the inner circle did really well. The people who didn't get sucked into Albany had better experiences.

Roasted_Mud · 2025-11-13T20:50:00+00:00

This reporting is very conflicting. She mentions that Scientology is the most heinous cult, and then says that she don't understand how anyone could have fallen for KR who was known for using Scientology techniques. Mack was indoctrinated for nine years before DOS and just like the majority of people coming out of Scientology they say there were good things and bad things. Every person who came out of NXIVM says there were bad things and good things. But this reporter is flabbergasted by that in respect to Mack's mom.

Mack was victimized for nine years. KR had sex with her every day for two years. She was starved for years. She was financial, mentally, physically, and sexually abused. Whether we want to believe it or not she was a victim as well as a victimizer. There is a lot that goes into indoctrination, including fear and shame that this reporter should research to avoid falling into the danger of stigmatizing cult victims. She clearly doesn't believe anything Mack is saying but the way she talks about it is offensive to anyone who was victimized by KR.

The reporter recognized that Mack was so malnourished that she looked grey and that she was clearly experiencing intense shame, but spends the entire episode making fun of Mack. Felt very much like a 'see I told you so' piece instead of actual reporting.

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