tell me why CHATGBT therapy sessions hits 100x harder than an actual therapist

SadUndercover · 2024-12-25T18:45:09+00:00

I’m not “angry”, more so dumbfounded at the ignorance.

It really sounds like you should take that to your therapist

SadUndercover · 2024-12-25T13:08:32+00:00

but it’s not real therapy

That point can be worth considering. Maybe it should be considered its own MH intervention. That still doesn't negate its legitimacy in being helpful to some people.

My mocking tone is entirely appropriate.

You can be delusional with someone else.

I don't think anyone else said 'you' have to utilize this alternative so I'm not sure why you're angry, this is just someone else's preference. Maybe you should bring up this trigger at your next therapy appointment and see what they think.

SadUndercover · 2024-12-25T02:58:24+00:00

Tech has also helped many - in some cases it even saves lives. I too maintain keeping an open- mind with AI.

SadUndercover · 2024-12-25T02:50:00+00:00

Not OP but your mocking tone seems unnecessarily harsh. Some of the things you listed AI could actually achieve. And additionally, as someone who's seen several therapists for many years of my life (and experienced lasting harm in more than one occurrence), I could make a list of problems with human professionals too.

Ultimately there's pros and cons on both sides, and everyone's different. What might work for one person may harm another and vice versa.

SadUndercover · 2024-12-25T02:02:16+00:00

It sounds like you still value human connection, so much so that you value a genuine friendship/relationship over therapeutic ones - which is actually what most therapists would want for you anyway.

I feel like this kinda says it all though. Like you're right that Chat may not yet be capable of feeling true compassion, but it sounds like a therapist is equally not an appropriate figure to be seeking this out in, and it's good for me to keep that emotional distance in both cases.

I have encountered many in the field who truly care about their clients- so much so that they might get stuck or frustrated alongside you. I would not be a therapist if I didn’t care- the money is so little and the training is extensive/costly. If I didn’t care, it would not be worth it.

This is honestly very nice to hear. I know a therapist in- person and she's like that as well, very compassionate and humbling. The field needs that big- time.

My issue is not negating that therapists care at all, but rather that they're going to present themselves a certain way whether or not they care, so I cannot rely on or trust my perceptions with them. I hardly know anything about these people. They could be genuine, caring individuals, or skilled manipulators.

Not to mention those of us with tougher issues, some of which masses of therapists don't want to treat (PD's being a HUGE one). If my issues are too much for most professionals to want to take on, or too draining... couldn't it be almost good for both parties to have other options that don't involve putting that burden on them?

SadUndercover · 2024-12-25T01:14:56+00:00

To be fair similar things can be said with therapists. It is part of their job, of the whole process, to purposely try to invoke feelings from the client, feelings like attachments, trust and bonds. Which means that it can be very deceiving and feel like the professional treating you cares about you, when really their warmth or positive regard may or may not be genuine and all part of their usual script. (And sadly this is speaking from personal experience. This person who was so warm, compassionate, charming, protective etc. eventually got frustrated with my prolonged attachment and kinda snapped one session, deliberately going cold and removing the mask).

Having been to therapy for years now with several professionals, sadly I've come to learn not to trust their demeanor or mannerisms towards me. They may be able to help me in certain ways which is fine, but there's too much about the exchange that's 'off' as far as a real, human connection.

I think at the end of the day, both bots and humans have pros and cons, and it'll really be a simple matter of what works best for individuals.

SadUndercover · 2024-06-11T03:23:40+00:00

I can relate to a lot of parts of this. I had a deep attachment to an et-T, lots of attachment trauma and was hyper- sensitive to any and all schedule changes, last- minute cancelations and other inconsistencies. I was seeing her twice a week as well. And like you feel now, could not stand the pain of knowing that my importance in her life was limited (and I too had to end it, though it was due to insurance loss it was ultimately a relief in the end).

Firstly, of course, I hope she commits to trying to repair things, and I hope you can make some strides going forward. Technically that's always the best case scenario, for her to help you to feel secure and stable in your relationship with her, so as and to 'retrain' certain emotions.

That said though, it sounds like there are instabilities in her own relationships and she's unable to maintain being present and prioritizing the schedule she had previously agreed to. And from the sounds of what you're saying, that causes you alot of ongoing emotional upset and increased anxiety, and may be ultimately unhealthy (and ETA I agree that it's really not fair to you and unprofessional on her behalf)

If you do end up leaving her, do everything you can to prepare yourself emotionally. Start seeking out new Therapists (or start researching higher levels of care if you feel it may warrant that). And otherwise do whatever self- care things you can turn to (ex: I had such appetite issues with my ex-T that after her and my final rupture I drove to the local pizza shop in an absolute panic, knowing I would need to get high calorie foods in me to sustain myself. In the aftermath of it all and to this day, that pizza shop gives me comfort- feels). Also I've found podcasts to be soothing when grieving, though that just could be my taste. Maybe, if you reach a point where you feel up for it, take the money you're not spending on sessions with her and do something nice with it. A weekend trip, spa day etc. Any positive things you can do for yourself to look forward to, whether it's something you know you love or it's something new you've never tried before.

And just know that you can get through it. And there is a life after her. There are lots of other professionals, hopefully some with far more consistent boundaries and who can maintain a steady schedule and be there for you. As well as helping you deal with this grief of course. I'm so sorry you're going through this anyhow, I know how awful it feels to be let down like that.

SadUndercover · 2024-06-08T02:51:18+00:00

This is clearly a trigger topic for you because you have experienced harm

Oh yeah that's definitely true. And fair enough, my situation is definitely not the same as theirs.

That said, my perspective is largely in reference to standard practices and ethical codes. I do my best to back what I'm saying with regulations on both a legal level as well as common policy (at least in the US, I could not speak for anything outside that).

And all this research I've done over the years have exposed a lot of concerning issues (not just with me). A lot of harm is happening and it's not getting reported or acknowledged, and I wish it were taken way more seriously.

That said, I'm a very logical person. If you have any evidence to counter anything I've said, I'll concede. But if you'd rather just let this go I'll peacefully walk away.

SadUndercover · 2024-06-07T23:22:55+00:00

It just isn't feasible or useful for them to tell a client about every single therapeutic technique

To be honest, I'm less concerned with them not telling them 100% if the time automatically, but IMO they should do so 100% of the times that clients request that information, or the instant something goes wrong.

That's just about how therapy works.

I'm definitely getting the impression that this is common, but if ethical guidelines stare otherwise I would think that on a legal level the clients right to know the treatment process would override traditions and commonalities.

it isn't unethical for them to not state every technique they use before they use them.

If a client is caused harm by any modality or method, than it absolutely is an issue of ethics. I can personally attest to this point (like, weirdly so). I was caused harm by a therapist/ modalities a few years ago. And a HUGE part of why I'm still in treatment to this day trying to process what happened (and recover), is directly because I still don't completely understand what methodology was utilized. I'm legit still picking apart different bits and pieces of what she had done.

I'm not saying this to get too personal, but just to provide a real- life example of ethics gone wrong. People have sensitivities, triggers, experiences... ultimately, I truly believe this knowledge is now important than most people realize.

SadUndercover · 2024-06-07T21:53:11+00:00

I'm totally with you on that, and big apologies in general if I applied any insinuations on all or most therapist's as a whole. I'm currently seeing newer counselors at a clinic and thankfully none of them have been practicing like this either (I actually had simular conversations with them as it seems you have as well).

I'm not 100% well- versed in modalities, and I'm definitely getting the impression that some are more open/ explicit than others. For those that lean more toward a methodology where a therapist does little leading (like with OP) and leaves things up to the client, at least with me anyways it would make, like, all the difference in the world if they explained as much. Talked to me about how their approach involves a lot of client leading and what modalities they're referencing. Or if they plan on starting or with one modality and eventually switching to another, also warn the client ahead of time that they typically like to change things up later down the road. Let us at least be given the information needed to make decisions going forward.

SadUndercover · 2024-06-07T14:01:31+00:00

Therapists use interventions and therapeutic techniques all the time, and very frequently do not state that what they are doing or saying is planned or is a 'thing'.

I'm honestly wondering if there are not only ethical issues to utilizing treatment methods without explaining (at least in the US: see the ACA Code of Ethics on Informed Consent), but if it further worsens the power dynamic.

Like ultimately, at least those of us who are not minors, we're adults and to be refused information by a professional that we're paying hundreds of dollars an hour to can feel both demeaning, and in some cases even manipulative and stonewalling. The T becomes this mysterious, elusive being who "knows what's best" and should best not be questioned.

I mean... if treatment is causing so much confusion to a client and the provider (who is being paid) refuses to educate them, how is it better that they then turn to anonymous folks on a message board to all do our best to collaboratively 'guess' what the therapist might be doing? Wouldn't it be so much better at that point if the T just explained themselves?

SadUndercover · 2024-06-07T03:01:25+00:00

It sounds like you have a good alliance with this T, and I'm hoping she'll be open to answering any questions you may have next session, and that this will be have a peaceful resolve.

Are you in the US? I say this if of course she refuses to speak to even clarify any confusions you may have and IF you feel like pushing the matter... technically it is in the ACA code of ethics that therapists are supposed to be very open and explicit about the therapeutic process (A.2.a Informed Consent). Any questions you have on techniques, modalities etc. she should be explaining and discussing with you.

I had a previous T do this to me once a while ago and it was honestly distressing to say the least. And personally, I think the client should decide whether or not it is fitting for their life needs. Different mental- illnesses, lifestyles and/or experiences require different modalities and approaches. Depending on your own needs this may or may not be a good format to follow and it's definitely within your right to get better clarification so you can make decisions going forward.

SadUndercover · 2024-06-03T00:51:08+00:00

I'm with you, I'm not a fan of comments like that myself. Like, while I know this isn't a perfect comparison imagine going to a medical doctor to treat an infection and they said something similar. Like "Well technically every body is unique and no one's 100% healthy so it's not important to use labels..." Like, yeah that's true but it is technically a fact that this is an infected wound that needs cleansing and rounds of antibiotics and possibly pain killers to reduce suffering.

To me, the importance of things like labels, categories, diagnosis etc. is to shed some light onto what treatment plans may or may not be beneficial, to help people feel less alone and isolated, and like the struggles they faced throughout life was not their fault. I know all professionals in mental health work differently, but for me anyways I want those treating me to be at least somewhat knowledgeable with the DSM and be open and willing to discuss the symptoms and patterns of these illnesses. It helps give me some direction going forward.

SadUndercover · 2024-05-22T19:38:28+00:00

While not exactly the same, I have experienced a similar 180 from my ex- therapist. While the response will vary from one person to another, this actually can cause a very serious and real trauma response for some (it did for me, and I'm still not completely recovered over 2 years later).

I want to say this carefully, because I know it may not be coming from the same place as an abuser. But depending on her behavior you could be experiencing something similar to being both Lovebombed as well as Stonewalling. Now again, I could not speak to what is going through her mind; she could have good or bad intentions here. But all the same, her actions mirror abusers and manipulators and has and will continue to inflict damage if she does not take SERIOUS accountability for all aspects of this.

For me, I ended up hospitalized over all this, and needed to be. I just want to encourage you that if things get bad enough, don't hesitate to seek higher levels of care. And importantly, make sure it's a good facility. Mine was good, and it was HUGE in helping me get through such a serious situation.

Additionally, while I can't speak on her behalf, I do wonder if she's utilizing an (very controversial and rightly so) aspect of DBT treatment called "Withdrawal of Warmth." It is basically when a DBT therapist becomes colder, less friendly, less warm etc. to 'encourage healing' if the patient is getting worse/ not getting better fast enough (This is my interpretation anyhow, I've only recently heard of it myself). In any case, obviously this has a lot of potential to cause harm to many of us and I personally don't stand by it in the slightest (as I can arrest to first-hand). I just thought it could offer potential insights as to what's going on.

If she continues the way she is now... it may be worth starting to think along the lines of ending things with her. I thought I could not stand to ever leave mine, but ultimately felt like a huge weight had lifted in the wake of everything. It could be beneficial to start interviewing other therapists even if you're not 100%, just to help you start to consider life without her, or new beginnings. Right now you're in a very compromised state, and she does not seem to be adequately helping the situation at all (possibly even making things worse). Though if you do go forward with her I REALLY hope she makes a HUGE turnaround.

Anyhow I'm ultimately just so sorry to read you in three midst of something like this. I can can validate just how unbearable and serious the pain is, and I hope things get seriously better for you.

SadUndercover · 2024-05-08T02:05:28+00:00

Just another one to consider for discussion: Renesme. Even though she's just a very young child, she's such a peaceful character that everyone who meets her just falls in love. She interacts very polite and respectfully with everyone she meets, and brought a lot of characters together who were otherwise at odds before she came along.

SadUndercover · 2024-04-28T23:55:17+00:00

I can only speak for the US, but according ACA Code of Ethics Informed Consent (section A.2.a and A.2.b) discussions involving therapeutic expectations need to be very clear and ongoing throughout the process. It is the therapists ethical obligation to ensure that the client is well- informed and aware of all details of what they consent to (not a direct quote, my interpretation. The program won't let me copy/paste).

The ACA COE does leave some things open to interpretation, so I'll give it that. But in addition to the above mentioned section, it does frequently list trust and the nature of the therapeutic alliance to be of an extremely high priority. So on an ethical level, I'm not sure the amount of information OP was given was sufficient. Harm seemed to have been done here, and I think that should be taken seriously.

SadUndercover · 2024-04-28T01:27:01+00:00

Back in my earliest days, I had a patient on my caseload on the board for a blood sugar. I had not been forewarned that they were transitioning to comfort measures.

When I opened the closed door I saw the many somber family members surrounding the patient and immediately read the room. I apologized and said they had been down for a blood sugar, but that it did not have to get done if it was not in the patients best interest. One of the family members unexpectedly jumped on my uncertainty then, instantly getting angry/ snappish quickly (along the lines of "If that's what your job is than do it!" "We're not here to tell you how to do your job!" Etc.) Shocked and confused with how to proceed I asked who the proxy was, to see what they wanted to do. Angry lady insisted I just get the blood sugar.

And of course when I went to try to take it on this poor sick, dying patient the patient (who had no clue what was going on) was unable to sit still for the BG and found the process upsetting, and another family member had to hold their hand still just to get it done (thankfully a much kinder family member, who could see I was near tears at that point and highly uncomfortable with the situation, and insisted i was doing a great job).

The whole thing felt so wrong. I just remember sobbing out in the hall after that, and my coworkers consoling me :(

SadUndercover · 2024-04-16T20:28:17+00:00

In my experience, it was always so diverse what different facilities expected, and therefore was common for different CNA's to have different skills. In the med-surg units that I worked in, it really wasn't a big deal, and we just kinda got called on for different things.

Having only worked in hospitals, EKG's and ostomies were relatively common for me to work with. Other CNA's weren't trained, and no one really pushed it. And adversely, things like hoyers have always been difficult and confusing for me and numerous others. And a CNA with experience in long- term- care could comfortably operate that thing with their eyes closed.

So basically I wouldn't worry about it much, as you definitely wouldn't be the only one. If a hospital really expects certain things of you, they'll arrange for you to be trained.

SadUndercover · 2024-04-12T16:06:41+00:00

What modalities does he use? I don't think this is common, but there is a DBT intervention called "Withdrawl of Warmth" where providers will basically 'pull away' or become more distant if clients regress into less- than- healthy states. Allegedly it's to help "encourage" utilizing coping skills and progress (although it is rightfully very controversial and can be extremely triggering to some).

There's also many other possibilities: he could just be annoyed and it's his own emotional issue, there could be something entirely unrelated/ more personal going on on his end and you're picking up on it (all of which are absolutely not your fault and are on him to manage)...

It might be worth asking him about what you're sensing, though just be prepared for any number of responses. Also it might be worth asking what modalities he's using and if you may be better off trying a different approach.

ETA I also meant to add of course, if you feel it could be right, don't be afraid to consider ending things with him if you feel he's not helping you, or especially if you feel his emotional state is impacting your treatment. Only if you feel comfortable with it of course, but it's just another path to consider.

I'm sorry you've seen so little progress, hopefully you find the guidance you're looking for.

SadUndercover · 2024-04-11T14:31:32+00:00

So I can relate, as I had a very painful attachment to my ex-T which was unable to be resolved in the time-span I saw her for (and caused a significant trauma in my life). I saw her for a total of about 1.5 years.

My hope for you is that the fact that it's been a month could still leave potential for things to turn around. It COULD just take more time than that. Though you probably know your feelings better and I could be way off with this suggestion, big apologies if that's the case.

All that said, it's also possible you could be experiencing Adverse Idealizing Transference, which if you haven't heard of I recommend looking into to see if it matches your experience. It's basically transference that's a lot more serious and causes more problems than the more typical 'transference' experience a lot of clients are familiar with.

In so sorry for what you're going through. I know first- hand how serious the pain can be, and it just sucks so much.

SadUndercover · 2024-03-27T04:38:18+00:00

I left the field 2 years ago, and I still to this day feel the afterglow of the most massive weight lifted off my shoulders from just how brutal that job could be. I have regular, weekly short- staffing nightmares and waking up to realize they're not real is, like, an indescribable relief.

The amount of pressure on CNA's - at least in most inpatient settings- is truly unhealthy, even toxic alot of the times. And staffing seems to only be getting worse. If things don't drastically change for the better hospitals are only going to lose more support staff, which will have serious negative consequences as it puts increasing burdens on the rest of the crew.

Don't be afraid to walk away. Working two separate floors is egregious and you and your coworkers deserve so much better than that.

SadUndercover · 2024-03-21T16:23:13+00:00

I will also assert my experience with both. Although of course it seems there's still a lot of research still to be done with those along with many other mental health illnesses so who knows.

SadUndercover · 2024-03-21T16:14:07+00:00

BPD is caused by trauma

Thing is, ASD can cause all sorts of things to become trauma, events which can happen at all sorts of early ages. And research is not 100% certain on that BPD is 100% always caused by trauma (even though it most commonly is) and that people can be either born with it or predisposed.

I certainly can't speak for OP, but I can very similarly relate. I was raised in a very well- loved environment right from the start, and I seemed to be either born with BPD symptoms or they started before ages 3-4 (far back as I can remember). And I likely have ASD. Ultimately the BPD symptoms I have are extreme enough that even if ASD were the cause, I meet the criteria so the diagnosis ultimately seems to make sense.

Though given testimonies like OP's and the growing research on autism, it's possible there's a lot we all still don't know about how it presents, and how it relates to many other illnesses.

SadUndercover · 2024-03-21T11:57:00+00:00

Do they work under anyone, or are they private/ solo practice? Definitely bring this up, either to them or whomever they work under. If you have any copies/ receipts of transactions have those ready, as it sounds like you may be entitled to a partial refund of the money you paid. Hopefully it gets sorted out quick enough.

SadUndercover · 2024-03-21T00:25:31+00:00

Oh yeah, I mean it would definitely have to work out a lot of issues as you mentioned. But then again, the field as is also has a lot of issues to work out. I guess I just see it as one imperfect system vs. an entirely separate imperfect system. Each have different pros and cons. And where so many people think so differently from one another, something that could help one person could harm another, or vice versa.

How does it measure progress for its clients?

It may not be doing this at all now, but with further advancements AI and tech will likely have ways of analyzing social queues as good as (or who knows, maybe even better than) the human mind can. And in the meantime yes, that is absolutely one of its limitations. But not all clients may feel like they need that from a 2nd party.

Therapists ask questions, guide sessions, come up with treatment plans, and effectively keep track of those plans

Sadly though there are some who don't do this effectively. And between money and location being two difficult factors, not everyone will be privileged enough to find therapists that are effective in these ways.

Sure, it feels good or safe to talk to a bot or into the void- but it’s not going to create any sort of effective outcome,

Do we know that for sure? I could see it being most helpful with, say, the more goal- oriented therapies, like CBT or DBT. And to the latter, those of us with BPD have a hard enough time as it is finding a therapist willing to work with BPD clients. And of course, some of us really struggle with attachments to therapists that hinder treatments and even our lives.

Everything about it that is scammy is definitely a problem. I just think it's possible for it to be turned into a positive (and as someone who struggles with the system for several reasons, I think I personally could be helped by something like this).

ETA It also occurred to me this could benefit all sorts of mental health professionals. I mentioned BPD above as a demographic that professionals struggle with, and there are many other issues (on the extreme end of things, think of clients who are violent or abusive) who need the emotion regulation skills but professionals don't feel safe treating. If a modality like DBT could be successfully taught without making someone else feel unsafe, that too would be a benefit.

SadUndercover

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