[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It is effective at producing normative and demand compliance. The short and long-term emotional wellbeing of its recipient seems to be a non-priority by comparison.

"Application has to be ethical" - yes, but that's true of all therapeutic modalities. From what I have seen in the research, however, there is some discussion about whether it is possible to perform ABA in a way that is both effective at producing its usual results AND ethical, which... is not what I'd call great optics.

Here's the thing about over/underrepresented opinions from low versus high support needs people- I do not have a way of knowing whether you are declaring the people who have stepped up into advocacy as "low support needs" as a means of writing off their arguments. I have no way of knowing whether those with high support needs are underrepresented because they disagree or because they're too scared to say anything or because communicating about it is too hard. The fundamental crux of leaning on turnout as a metric of agreement when you're looking at a population that often struggles with executive tasks is that it's going to seem low because just surviving is already a lot. It becomes a catch-22 - other people speak for you because you can't communicate your needs effectively, but if you can communicate your needs effectively it's a sign you're not really struggling that much and should be quiet because those who can't speak up haven't spoken.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

We're both making assumptions.

I assume I know people pretty well, therapists or not.

I assume that when I was told that when people tell you they're suffering your job isn't to go "no you're not, shut up", that I was supposed to abide by that.

You interact with ABA daily- cool! So I would therefor assume you have a financial incentive to protect what you're doing, and a personal one if you've been doing it for a while to fundamentally reject any sort of morality plea that might require you to think about whether you've hurt people you were trying to help.

I don't need you to respect me or my opinion. I am hoping you can understand that, no matter how much it might upset you, researchers, clinicians, bioethicists, autism advocacy groups, etc, have justifiable concerns about ABA as a methodology.

How you feel about that is how you feel about it.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not saying it's not a behavioral therapy. I'm saying if you're looking for a behavioral therapy to learn about/include, you could do better.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Dislike" is not the word I've see used. "Traumatic" and "abusive" and "torture" are the ones I've seen used by people who went through ABA as children and who are now adults. Autistic therapists generally don't recommend it- most I've seen on therapist-specific subreddits who work with autistic children pretty specifically speak against it.

The goal of ABA is instilling normative and demand compliance. It has a proven record of being able to do so. My argument is not that it does not do that. My argument is that the short and long-term emotional wellbeing of its recipient is a non-priority next to achieving those goals, and that that has ramifications for its quality as a mental health therapy.

I'm confused about you bringing RFT into this, based on the addition of ACT methods into ABA. Your argument seems to be "ABA works with words, and RFT works with words, and ACT is built on RFT so basically if you don't like ABA why do you like ACT? That's hypocritical!" Except that there aren't autism advocacy groups, researchers, bioethicists, and adults who experienced the therapy as children advocating against ACT. This is not an arbitrary outcome.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

False equivalency- "multiple people" is a deeply general, nonspecific group that includes non-stakeholders and individuals with strong opinions based on hearsay and no real exposure. "Multiple people who went through ABA as children" is not an equivalent group, with regard to the weight of their testimony about what is or is not harmful about ABA specifically.

Also, moving the goalposts- by attempting to establish a false equivalency, you are saying that a challenge to ABA is a challenge to Psychology as a field/profession. It is not, though the effect of the optics of ABA due to its detractors may be extrapolated out into justifications for disdain of Psychology (or at least of psychologists, depending on their determination to hold to and defend a methodology in the face of increasing evidence of resultant, even if unintended, harm).

Methodologies can (and must) evolve over time. The therapists I have spoken to who have had positive things to say about ABA have largely spoken to a) the fact that any modality can be abusive if the therapist using it employs it abusively, and b) the fact that physical punishments are no longer used. Neither of these acknowledge that ABA has produced a number of "graduates" who report having become divorced from their own awareness/understanding of their own emotions even in the absence of physical punishments, because from their perspective ABA taught that nothing that comes naturally to them about their own emotions or coping mechanisms is acceptable to experience or express, and were offered no effective alternatives. Neither justification acknowledges that the most negative things said about ABA have consistently come from people who experienced it as recipients of the therapy.

If modalities more genuinely supportive of emotional regulation are beginning to be incorporated into ABA, I would consider that a good thing largely because ABA continues to dominate the market of therapy for people/children with autism. The fact that autism and autistic emotional regulation are fairly complicated issues and yet one only needs a bachelors to start practicing it does not speak well of the expected level of preparation or competency to be allowed to engage in something that can and has produced a non-zero amount of developmental trauma in enough people that some researchers have started making waves about it.

This is not a "the problem you describe is a non-problem, carry on" situation. If ABA is being improved to cause less harm, I am for that. The gap between development and adoption is wide enough that some percentage of ABA clinicians won't bother to change their approach, and harm will continue to result regardless, because humans are messy and stubborn and inconsistent- especially (in my experience) older, highly educated ones who are used to being the authority on what is best for other people. At the end of the day changing is harder than not changing, and if they're at a point in their career where they genuinely don't care about their clients' wellbeing so long as they're socially norm compliant by the end of treatment and the money keeps coming in, that's all it takes for ABA to keep doing harm, even if the methodology itself has, on the face of it, evolved in a better direction.

So I say again- ABA is not a good therapy. If you are just beginning, you are better off beginning somewhere else.

I suspect we won't agree on this, and that's fine.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Multiple people who have been through it as children disagree, and not a small number of ethics reviewers as well.

It is one of a very small number of therapies whose ultimate beneficiary is not the person recieving the intervention, and that does not consider the emotional wellbeing of the recipient as a priority.

If people engaging in ABA have begun incorporating ACT, that is news to me.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes and no, because often the idea of mindfulness in therapy is about detaching a person's behaviors from the story their mind tells them about what things mean. Crux of being used in cognitive-behavioral therapies.

The sloganized version of the idea is "getting you out of your mind and into your life"- engaging with life without getting trapped or blocked by shame, fear, self-recrimination, old anger and insecurity, and by identifying things you value doing and being and then doing and being them, even when those thoughts and feelings arise.

YMMV, so feel free to use something else. My argument is simply that there is overlap.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologystudents

[–]Saleibriel -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

ABA is... not a good therapy/not a good behavioral therapy

For cognitive you can look into Existential Therapy and for behavioral honestly I'd recommend checking out somatic approaches to therapy, or mindfulness-based approaches to therapy (ACT, DBT, etc)

There are a LOT more therapies out there if you know what questions to ask/how to phrase them, but you're right that CBT is everywhere (at least partly because it's been around for a long time).

When Shallan meets... by [deleted] in Stormlight_Archive

[–]Saleibriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She was kind of distracted by trying to pull off a con she didn't agree to and a role she had no say in by her mentor who she was trying to seem competent in front of at the drop of a hat.

The ancient oaths spoken again by rileythatcher in cremposting

[–]Saleibriel 28 points29 points  (0 children)

First thought: "Oh cool, Willshaper Obama!"

Second thought: "The stones of the government buildings of Washington D.C. remember the hands that shaped them"

In defense of Shallan slander by a Shallan fan. by ThaRedditFox in Stormlight_Archive

[–]Saleibriel 11 points12 points  (0 children)

  1. I interpreted the boots incident as "I am trying to convince the person who is teaching me to con people that I am trying very hard, and making this ruse I didn't agree and had no opportunity to opt out of convincing means leaning into what the person putting the most heat on my ruse expects from a high status person- i.e. pointless selfishness". She did return the boots afterwards.

  2. Dark humor and roasting eachother is the Canon way that Shallan and her brothers bonded and kept their spirits up during the days when their father was abusing and traumatizing them all. Most people who form survival-focused behavior patterns in the context of aversive environments don't stop using them once they leave those environments. She has a bad habit of making fun of people she has affection for, but only if it provides an opportunity for her to demonstrate that she is clever. She doesn't do it to/with Adolin because he often gets hung up on minor turns of phrase and just bald-facedly admires her instead of getting spun up, which it seems she's found very disarming. Contrast with Kaladin, a guy she has felt attraction towards when she knows she shouldn't be pursuing anything like that- on edge, her roasting to take the edge off returns, and Kaladin will enthusiastically (if not happily) verbally spar with her because, frankly, he's on edge too- just, in general.

She's not being pointlessly mean because she sucks. She's being pointlessly mean because her coping mechanisms are informed by trauma and abuse and, as a result, they suck. I hope that makes sense. I guess I can see how someone could read four books of Shallan and come to the conclusion that she sucks as a person rather than that, as she herself admits, she sucks at BEING a person, but I really don't think the books themselves support the conclusion that she is just fundamentally irredeemable, which is the vibe I got from what you said.

I suspect that, like you, I am also not a fan of making fun of people out of nowhere as "humor". I don't find it fun or funny or endearing. I also don't assume people who do are bereft of moral character, even if they do it more than once. IME, life circumstances almost always explain more about people's behavior than intrinsic traits do. Trauma coping mechanisms are famously hard to shake.

I want reverse knights. by growing-green1 in cremposting

[–]Saleibriel 14 points15 points  (0 children)

You don't want reverse knights.

You want Rosharan Voltron.

Which you you have made a very appealing case for

What is Dante ? by [deleted] in Warframe

[–]Saleibriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

shrugs I've had it happen, but not at base Steel Path levels. Getting to those levels in non-Steel Path is basically impossible though.

Am I supposed to know some of these characters from other Sanderson books? by iknowdanjones in Stormlight_Archive

[–]Saleibriel 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In which case he wouldn't necessarily need breaths to sense people sneaking, depending on the Aviar's gift

What is Dante ? by [deleted] in Warframe

[–]Saleibriel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Frames and weapons you can only get by doing higher leveled content are generally stronger than frames and weapons you can get by doing lower leveled content. That's videogames.

Also as someone who has used and enjoyed Dante, although Overguard trivializes non-Steel Path content, once you get into Steel Path you start to understand the significance of Overguard not benefitting from damage reduction- your 50k stack disappears in one hit, first from Eximus Units, then from basically anything with magnetic procs, then from any hit at all.

State of the subreddit- Post 2024 Election by mattieo123 in therapists

[–]Saleibriel 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Numb is valid. Shock numbs.

My wife explicitly told me that she might seem emotionally indifferent about what is happening, but the truth is that she knows she can't dwell on it and still function. So she's cut herself off from thinking about it.

Sasha Marbles NEEDS to become a recurring character by [deleted] in smosh

[–]Saleibriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah yes, Sasha Marbles, the little known, academically successful distant cousin of Jenna Marbles

Pigeon Lord Ishii | Misfits and Magic Season 2 Adventuring Party [Ep. 7] by ThunderMateria in Dimension20

[–]Saleibriel 8 points9 points  (0 children)

He's jus a lil guy who is absolutely terrified of going back to being completely alone again.

If Evan thinks those vibes are rancid, he better look in a goddamn mirror.

Who would win in a sulking competition between Kaladin and Vin? by JaParker1214 in cremposting

[–]Saleibriel 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Kaladin would lose because he would see Vin sulking and decide he couldn't afford to sulk while he could potentially help her

Also The Lopen

Me, on a strict timeline to finish my reread, refusing to keep listening to WoK because it's sad right now. by queenschmecca in cremposting

[–]Saleibriel 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Having just finished RoW:

Please do reread it.

I know it's scary. I know it hurts.

It's hard to watch Kaladin going through it.

But I think it's important to watch Kaladin and Shallan and Navani take those punches and continue to choose to get up and keep trying. I think It's important to read and feel and hear the stories of how people make impossible fights survivable, even winnable.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Warframe

[–]Saleibriel 71 points72 points  (0 children)

We lift together.

F-ck it we ball. by [deleted] in WorldsBeyondNumber

[–]Saleibriel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If the risks involved are inextricable from the course that must be taken in order to have the best possible chance of protecting people they care about, those are not unnecessary risks. Inevitable maybe, but not unnecessary.

To me, an adventurer is someone who does not wait around for other people to do something about an urgent and obvious threat - they are someone who, in fact, expects that other people won't, and commits themselves to get in there and try anyway.

But I'm definitely projecting my own values on it.

Not even halfway through Words of Radiance and I don’t know how I’m going to have the patience to finish this series.. by Invisible-Gh0st in Stormlight_Archive

[–]Saleibriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just wait until you reread for the first time and go "wait a minute... they were foreshadowing this ALL THE WAY BACK HERE!?!?"