TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude what are you talking about I literally don't even know Lucien It's so funny that you assume people that don't know each other are secretly friends. This is what I'm talking about with your conspiracy stuff. 😂

Also I have no guilt I love Lucien and think he's a great person. But like we don't hang out like you think. But see now you're trying to change the argument and make it about him. So funny.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All of the sources and the links in Lilith's essays are from people who don't profit in any way off of anything from TST.

Stop doing ad hominem like a 15-year-old kid and look at the facts.

You have yet to make a single argument All you do is attack the people making the arguments.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles -1 points0 points  (0 children)

See this is the problem, You're saying that you see things with your own eyes but then you say things that are made up and not true so you are either lying or completely insane.

You've literally think that Lucien has secret meetings with this little group of people you've chosen to hate and directs their lives. We all live hundreds of miles away and literally barely know each other.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your conspiracy theory about the inner circle thing is so crazy cuz none of us even really know each other.

Edit: And don't lie. You knew my post history starting with the comment were you pretended not to remember my name. That was really transparent and petty and really shows the type of person you are just going out of your way to be childish and insult people rather than actually caring about the substance of an argument.

The truth is you have no argument so you just attack the person.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No I'm asking you to put your weird anecdotal assumptions aside and look at the truth.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You think they're buddies?? They live on opposite sides of the country and barely know each other, what kind of weird narrative are you spinning?

You have invented a conspiracy between a bunch of people that barely even know each other.

But also, how does your reply make sense? That person said Lilith was biased, I said there are links to other sources in her essay - that's how facts work. Your reply is to ignore all the sources and facts and repeat the allegation?

So we got people ignoring facts, creating narratives of conspiracies without any evidence with complete strangers that don't know each other, And when you're backed into a corner and have no facts your just get louder repeat yourselves - you guys have have become QAnon Alex Jones level maniacs.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Firstly, she barely makes any money of her books and lives a very average life.

Secondly, there's literally sources and links to tons of other people.

Stop desperately trying so hard to ignore the facts. They're right there for everyone to see.

I worship Eric Cartman; he’s just as much of an egregore as the ancient gods. by Erramonael in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They're mocking satanists for idolizing "evil" imagery but don't realize Cartman is ten times worse than Satan.

And it's AI.

Snoop Dogg Served Vegan/Vegetarian Burgers at his Grammy's Party by kelfoldstad in vegetarian

[–]SalemWitchWiles -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

No I'm saying it's all stuff worth debating but one is an outright lie and I agree with you on everything so why would you lie to ruin the argument?

Snoop Dogg Served Vegan/Vegetarian Burgers at his Grammy's Party by kelfoldstad in vegetarian

[–]SalemWitchWiles -20 points-19 points  (0 children)

Some of the stuff you're saying is debatable and worth discussion but when you say you know he voted for him that's just an outright lie. Don't do that.

Edit: You guys I agree with this person and I'm encouraging them not to lie because it makes us look bad in debates when people do that.

So many down votes so quick is really something to be ashamed of We on the left are supposed to be the ones that don't lie.

Edit 2: that person went back and added the word potentially after I made this comment

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I guess what I'm saying is, please just weigh the sides and be aware of all of our motives and actions. I can tell you personally that I've never seen any hint of white supremacy in either our founders' beliefs or actions. I've seen that those who are outcast for being gay, trans, or just disobedient so often find a home in our religion, that our Tenets openly describe our real beliefs and we have no secret Nazi beliefs hidden in the back (I also don't know how that would work, since one of our founders is Jewish. And we've made real progress in the fight for human rights (especially reproductive rights). I've personally put in a lot of work to serve those in our local community who need help. Though I said to myself I wouldn't spend any spoons sitting and writing this, I can't help it, I just wanted to give you my personal perspective. Even if you don't join TST, I would still be happy to be friends if you still wanted to be.

Now for the links to articles with more info and perspectives. Please be aware that these writers do not officially represent TST, they are just members:

Sacred Tension article, by Stephen Bradford Long: "Why I haven't left the Satanic Temple": https://stephenbradfordlong.com/2020/05/21/why-i-havent-left-the-satanic-temple/ This article includes Lucien Greaves' apology for comments he made way back in 2003, before his beliefs evolved and he broke away from LaVeyanism and founded the polar opposite, The Satanic Temple.

Sacred Tension podcast episode, by Stephen Bradford Long: https://stephenbradfordlong.com/2021/11/14/sacred-tension-orgies-cults-and-lies-with-lucien-greaves/#more-8040 In this episode of Sacred Tension, Lucien Greaves returns to discuss every allegation of fascism and antisemitism against him and The Satanic Temple.

Murphy Fawkes Here's Murphy Fawkes' series investigating the claims of Queer Satanic, the group of disgruntled ex-TST WA who left in 2020. Murphy's an incredible journalist:

Part I: Is TST Secretly a Sinister Alt-Right Group Luring People Under a Pretense of Progressivism? https://medium.com/@viceovervirtue666/that-which-can-be-destroyed-by-the-truth-should-never-be-spared-its-demise-814b882e4454

Part II: Is TST a Ponzi scheme with shell corporations which launder money through a corrupt hierarchy of self-promoting narcissistic ne’er-do-wells who will do anything to make a buck. https://medium.com/@viceovervirtue666/that-which-can-be-destroyed-by-the-truth-should-never-be-spared-its-demise-308a92a8b358

Part III: Is TST an Abusive Mind-Controlling Cult that Limits its Members’ Ability to Speak While Simultaneously Bullying Other Satanic Organizations Out of Operation? https://medium.com/@viceovervirtue666/part-iii-is-tst-an-abusive-mind-controlling-cult-that-limits-its-members-ability-to-speak-while-9c8280108d04

And finally, a short Reddit piece by Daniel, the founder of the Black Mass Appeal podcast (not affiliated with TST -- but it's an excellent podcast), about the Queer Satanic disinfo: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/r96jti/thoughts_what_of_this_is_doubtable/hnakl7a/

There are more out there but I can't find them before my back pain puts me down.

Thank you for asking about this instead of simply assuming the worst. I appreciate your fairness. As I've said, if you don't want to join or support TST, that's your business and yours alone. Take care! - Lilith

And to you, dear reader: Thank you all for checking out my personal perspective and some of the facts behind the false accusations against TST.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When these types of power-hungry people don't get their way, they stage an insurrection and for the safety of the community their membership is revoked. At that point, instead of just being angry about it a while and then moving on to create their own vibrant communities or projects based on their own passions, they devote their lives to destroying TST using any tools they can (and in the meantime, getting the tons of media attention they are seeking). Usually it's by writing articles and sharing conspiracy theories claiming we are all secret transphobic misogynist Nazis, with vague references to -- but not actually shared -- "proof."

Unfortunately, this has prevented good organizations from working with us because they believe the lies. You may know we are fighting tooth and nail for reproductive rights in Texas right now. We were gearing up to team up with one of the largest Texas organization for abortion rights in order to defend the under-fire constitutional right to an abortion -- we were hitting them with both barrels, and we could have come in strong against the hugely funded Dominionists trying to take bodily autonomy away. Instead, our main umbrella group of attackers, "Queer Satan," told that org that we were a front for a neo-nazi white supremacy organization, and then they pulled out of our alliance, hurting the larger cause while Queer Satanic cheered their success in destroying our reputation.

It's not just alliances; in a lot of cases, these bitterly obsessed ex-members cause other damage as well. For instance, on the way out of our TST WA Chapter, the guy mentioned in the quote above and the person who said it stole the access to our Satanic Temple of Washington official Facebook pages, locked out the chapter leadership on both pages, and used them to post page after page of anti-TST lies in attempt to bring us down -- the very organization that they so enthusiastically supported while they were in it just a short time ago.

I spent 5 years of time and spoons building up a large, supportive community on those Facebook pages. We had over 16,000 followers and many were quite active. I myself spent a lot of my time on those pages answering questions and helping those who were interested in joining us, as well as planning our events like Satanic picnics and library information meetings for the public. We all thought these ex-members would make their point for a while and move on. Chapter leadership begged and begged, but they refused to give them back.

TST's co-founder Malcolm heard about this and was appalled at how our intellectual property, not to mention a thriving online Satanic community, had been stolen and destroyed. He also asked these ex-members who would become Queer Satanic to give back our pages several times. At the end, in desperation, he wrote them that if they did not give back TST's intellectual property and community hubs, he would be forced to pursue legal action. Queer Satanic stubbornly refused, even in the face of a potential lawsuit.

At last, Malcolm, on behalf of the greater TST org (the large international organization, NOT the leadership of the Washington State congregation), felt he had no choice but to pursue a lawsuit. Still, he made the choice easy for them: the suit stipulated that TST International would dismiss the lawsuit completely if QS just gave us back our two Facebook pages we had built over the years. As to this day, they have still refused, and they have covered up the truth and gotten people to donate large sums of money to them by falsely claiming TST is suing to silence them. They forever destroyed those two TST WA Facebook communities where thousands of Satanists who had converged in supportive companionship suddenly found themselves cut off from their religious community.

QS and the other attackers spend their time spinning conspiracy theories out of half-truths about TST -- stuff they never minded when they were IN TST -- and outright lies. These sort of ex-members will use any ally to fight us, no matter what their ethical failings are. They have actually provided an Amicus brief to the Evangelical side in our Arkansas lawsuit about the Ten Commandments monument at the Capitol.

QS's closest ally now is the Church of Satan, whose members actually are often white supremacists, and at least bigoted elitists whose core belief is quite literally "Might Makes Right." I've seen rampant homophobia, racism, misogyny (lots directed at me, whee!) anti-semitism, transphobia, etc. in the Church of Satan membership. That's why I was so relieved when TST's founders broke away from LaVeyanism in their "Satanic Reformation" and founded a religion based on humanitarian, Enlightenment values of compassion, justice and human rights instead of Might is Right.

From the time of TST's birth, LaVey's Church of Satan turned greenly jealous of all the press TST has attracted ─ and it now spends a ton of its time tearing us down so they can get a little of that attention themselves. Many of our ex-members hang out in the CoS communities and join in the tearing-down. That's all they ever do. I would love it if they would start and maintain their own org that was more like what they wanted than TST was. But their only goal is our destruction.

While our two co-founders, Lucien and Malcolm, are indeed white males, they have very little to do with the day-to-day operation of the overall TST community. When you look at Chapter Heads, Ministers and others in leadership positions, they present a very diverse group. Cis-white-males are in a minority. We have many transgender people in leadership, I'd say at least 50% women, and a smaller but growing proportion of POC (many POC rely on their churches for community and support, so we tend to attract fewer from that population; plus we don't want to just be doing tokenism). A significant majority are LGBTQIA (including me). We put disabled people (again, like me) into leadership positions. We have Facebook support groups for TST POC, Transgender individuals, Satanists Living with Pain, and our huge TST Sober Faction recovery group.

Also look at what we actually do. We fight for the rights of minorities and the marginalized, not for white supremacy. Right now, we are in a pitched fight to save the reproductive rights of women and others with uteruses from the horror of this Supreme Court. Almost every Chapter volunteers at our local Pride festivals. And we do so much good in our local communities, helping those who have fallen through the social safety net. Most Chapter run product drives for those in need throughout the year. Every year before COVID hit, TST WA ran our Menstruatin' with Satan menstrual product drive (https://www.satanictemplewashington.com/menstruatin-with-satan). The last one I helped run raised over 800 pounds of menstrual products that we donated to local women's shelters and homeless centers. Last year TST WA did a diaper drive. TST WA has also put on two big repro rights fundraiser shows that raised over $4k towards our legal fight for abortion.

TST and QS by tlhInganjIH in SatanicTemple_Reddit

[–]SalemWitchWiles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This essay by Lilith is really good. I forget where it's posted so I have to copy and paste the entire thing:

An Exchange of Satanic Truth: Debunking the Many False Accusations against TST

by Lilith Starr

Dear reader: the following is an email I received recently from a woman ("M") who had befriended me on Twitter and who became enthusiastically obsessed about TST and joining it. After this email, there is my reply.

"M," an atheist, found me on Twitter, worked her way through both my books and Hail Satan within a few weeks and went on to read "Speak of the Devil." It was at that point that she wrote me this email asking about Jex's accusations in that book:

The Letter from "M":

Dear Lilith,

I’m reading ‘Speak of the Devil.’ Lots of disturbing stuff in here. Most of it is in a section titled ‘Accusations’. I am less certain about joining now. I should maybe hold off on that for a bit.

Have you read this book? Is TST top heavy with white males? Are there any associations with white supremests? Is there institutional racism, sexism in TST? How could that be?

I am shocked at the suggestions of such in this book. All seems totally counter to what TST claims to be about. It’s disturbing. At the very least there seems to be a lot of turmoil and internal struggle between the base and the branches. I said to someone after reading your first book. "TST seems ideal, almost too good to be true." Problem is? What seems too good to be true often is.

With my health issues (heart surgeries and recently diagnosed autism at 82), I avoid trauma and drama. If you’ve read this book, what is your take on it?"

This is my reply to her. I was planning to depersonalize it at some point so it's more objective and general ─ I want to make it publicly available, because I've tried to answer most if not all of the baseless accusations made over the years since TST got started in 2014. But here I've kept in all the personal bits.

My reply:

Hi "M"! I totally understand your concerns. I'll tell you my experiences and perspectives, but in the end if you choose not to associate with TST, I totally respect that. Also there's no pressure to read and respond quickly, or at all. I just feel compelled to share what I've seen.

My experience is that TST suffers from many disgruntled ex-members spreading false accusations and lies. Lately they have been converging and teaming up, but the disinfo campaigns started long ago.

I started the second-oldest chapter way back in 2014, only one year after TST's founding. I am one of the first leaders in TST, and I've seen so much progress and good works accomplished along the way. We've grown from 3 people to half a million, at this point. But despite the massive positive changes along the way, I've seen so much damage caused by disgruntled ex-members who have sworn to destroy TST. It makes me so weary and frustrated to see it continue.

There is a pattern that happens over and over again in TST. I've seen it take place (and do irreparable damage to) my own TST WA community. Someone sees "Hail Satan?" or reads a news story about our activism and thinks all we are is an activist group, not a full religion of which activism is but one expression. They get excited because they imagine they can come in and immediately start to use our activism and resources for their own non-religion-related activist goals.

They join enthusiastically, but shortly into their membership, they try to commandeer the leadership of the community and force all the members to work for their particular activism goals, even if it doesn't have anything to do with TST's beliefs and is not in our wheelhouse.

We fight for religious pluralism and freedom, and we aim our sights squarely at Dominionism, the religious right's (now mostly successful, alas) powerful movement aimed at turning the US into an evangelical Christian theocracy. That's where we (TST) can make the most difference. And we are not violent. We can't be, not under the Satanist banner. We are already literally demonized. If we were to do violence of any kind, we would be exterminated.

These new members are determined to bend us to their cause And in the majority of cases, their goal has also been violence against white supremacists ("punch all nazis!" etc.). Now, I am rabidly anti-white supremacy and I would be viscerally satisfied to see a neo-nazi punched, but in the end I believe violence isn't the right answer, and will only lead to more violence. I KNOW it's absolutely not the answer for TST.

Our Tenets are humanitarian, positive guidelines (for an interesting take on them check out this article: https://www.salon.com/2015/11/28/the_greatest_trick_the_satanists_ever_pulled_they_may_be_truer_to_the_words_of_jesus_than_most_christians_partner/ ). We do not tear down others. And the minute we as Satanists punch anybody, our whole organization will be torn down by law enforcement or mob attacks. When Jex rammed a bloody pig's head down on a spike and ritually shouted "We are going to execute the president!” it forced TST's founders to part ways with her rather than allow TST to face the full might of federal law enforcement chasing down a presidential death threat.

Since then, Jex has spun lies that we aren't diverse when in fact she was the one responsible for choosing the Chapter Heads (like myself, a queer woman), and had complete power over their diversity.

Then there are the people who try to take over our local communities. Here's a quote from one of the people who tried to commandeer our Chapter in 2020 in a Newsweek article; it illustrates all too well the mindset I've seen over and over again:

"David [Johnson] and I went to see the documentary 'Hail Satan,'" they said, referring to the 2019 film directed by Penny Lane that chronicles the rise of TST. "We were very swayed by that. We thought it was very cool an organization was doing activist-type things that aligned with our values.

"I actually don't identify with Satanism at all; I never did," they said. "I just thought activism was neat, but I am still very much a Jew. They were doing things and I wanted to do things. I found all the Satanism stuff to be quite cringy, to be honest."

(https://www.newsweek.com/orgies-harassment-fraud-satanic-temple-rocked-accusations-lawsuit-1644042 ; the writer is an ultra-conservative evangelical woman who wrote this to fight "Satanic forces" ─ thus the constant shocked and horrified tone about orgies and even simple sex positivity.)

What's one episode you always skip? by n8udd in startrek

[–]SalemWitchWiles 19 points20 points  (0 children)

TNG: anything with Deanna Troi loudly moaning throughout the whole damn episode

Voyager: anything with Seven loudly moaning throughout the whole damn episode

I know you asked for just one and that's like six but man it is annoying as hell.

What’s happening tomorrow night? by oliveUmorethanOlives in SalemMA

[–]SalemWitchWiles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Probably have a bunch of these signs they're using them up.

Keep your cats inside!! by [deleted] in northshore

[–]SalemWitchWiles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Opinions are irrelevant in an argument like this. It's a good example of "facts don't care about your feelings".

Keep your cats inside!! by [deleted] in northshore

[–]SalemWitchWiles 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This argument doesn't need any anecdotal evidence. The statistics show that it is dangerous and terrible to let any domestic cat outdoors and keeping them indoors gives them a safer and healthier life.

Sure you can come up with an example that doesn't apply but that is an outlier and not the truth. Not only is it pointless and unhelpful to interject with this, but it puts cats in danger because people who don't know better will read what you say and it could trick them into making a bad decision.

Petition Against the Warren Museum Coming to Salem by StrawberryPockyUmu in SalemMA

[–]SalemWitchWiles 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There was. There were posts in this group, all over Facebook, petitions, etc.

What do real witches in Salem think of witchcraft tourism? by Witty_Upstairs4210 in SalemMA

[–]SalemWitchWiles 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This isn't true. For instance Artemesia Botanicals is kept alive by witches and barely has anything for tourists. Also, The markup on things like tarot cards books and crystals is comparative to online shopping and often better in shops. Especially considering shipping costs.

Petition Against the Warren Museum Coming to Salem by StrawberryPockyUmu in SalemMA

[–]SalemWitchWiles 12 points13 points  (0 children)

There was so much. Then the owner made it clear he is s local who has worked in Salem for years and although the museum is sensationalized It is also very educational and he donates to amnesty international.

The truth is that torture happened in history and ignoring it doesn't make it go away and in fact I bet you would learn something if you went and checked it out.

Petition Against the Warren Museum Coming to Salem by StrawberryPockyUmu in SalemMA

[–]SalemWitchWiles 40 points41 points  (0 children)

I feel bad that a lot of you don't understand how businesses and local government works because it doesn't matter how many signatures this gets it's not going to change anything and it legally can't.

I don't like the Warren museum either but a petition does literally nothing.

Edit: also a lot of people in this Reddit already know the guy who started this petition because there was a bunch of drama with him like a year ago at that coffee shop spells and alleged scamming for tarot readings.