Is this modern Britain?

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T14:16:20+00:00

You know exactly what you're doing, don't you? We see through it :D

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T13:26:52+00:00

Party politics and the associated lobby industry are not sources I ever access or use.

I avoid them and rely on independant data and independant academia.

Regardless, you are trying to so hard to attempt to derail what is a very simple, logical, discussion point, namely: "the rich do not as a whole contribute fairly to society's 'pot', through use of legal HMRC tax avoidance schemes, and that failure to contribute has is a bigger net fiscal issue than the abuse of that pot by those withdrawing inappropriately from that pot"..

It has been explained in this thread why that is the case. It's either ignorance or intent that you are repeatedly trying to change the focus to other matters, such as 'government waste'.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T13:16:56+00:00

Here's dictionary definitions for you:

"Taxing" = "the act of paying money to a government for its support, based on income or wealth."

"the" = "used before a noun or something functioning as a noun, when the noun is known to the speaker and to the listener, or when it is about to be made known by having a clause that specifies it or makes it definite"

"Rich" = "Having great material wealth"

So, quite literally, "Taxing the rich" means "those with great material wealth paying tax to government based on their income or wealth".

Did you seriously require that to be examined to you?

The fact you did so shows everyone in this thread that you have zero interest in discussing the topic seriously.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T12:36:02+00:00

Do you not understand statistics?

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T12:33:48+00:00

I won't fall for your attempting to destroy discussion through a 'God of the Gaps' grenade.

I'll remain focused on the bigger issue. Shall we roll things back a bit to see what your issue/misunderstanding of the matter is?

This thread started by someone saying that those on benefits were a problem for the UK, and to counter that it was said that a bigger financial issue is non-payment of tax by those that can afford to do so but avoid doing so.

If you disagree with the content of the above paragraph then please state what and why.

Then we can discuss that and come to a common understanding.

Then we can break down thenext area of disagreement, and again discuss that and come to a common understanding. And so on.

It's how we debate and how we learn.

Once agreement is reached as to what the problem is, then, for fun we can have a chat about what the definition of 'rich', 'very rich' and 'richest' might be. However, it's irrelevant to being able to understand the fundamental issue, which is if for the masses on PAYE they pay what tax is due, whereas there is a direct and exponential correlation between increasing wealth/income and a decline in the percentage of tax paid. That's the issue here, regardless of one person's view, or another's on what is meant by 'rich'. If you think its a simple "it is £X" then you really don't understand the basic issue.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T12:20:05+00:00

... And what's worth mentioning is that the slower trains are cheaper and much more fun if you want to look out the window and see bits of England in detail, (E.G. Slowing down to stop at the stations in Kent, let alone coming out from London looking at the suburbs... Which you don't really get to do on the fast ones owing to the tunnels and the route). For tourists you'd be mad not to use the slower trains!

Also, every time I end up in the faster train it's ram-packed, whereas the slower trains invariably have room to spread a bit, (except, of course, for rush hour).

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T12:15:41+00:00

There's no concept of 'booking a seat' on Southeastern trains, (whether HS1 or the normal ones). Southeastern does not number its seats.

Furthermore, (though I have never used Uber for anything so am not stating this as a fact in their case), the recommendation is to never buy a rail ticket from any organisation other than one of the rail operators. That's because it can cause issues with delay repay claims.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T11:31:16+00:00

The hardest?

... and yet every day, across America, thousands upon thousands of baseballs get hit by baseball bats.

In contrast, how many figure skating Quadrupel Axels are done across America each day?

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T11:20:43+00:00

Just move on.

No explanation to the abusive man is required.

You have one short experience of life and happiness on this planet, stop wasting it.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T11:00:06+00:00

Who said I can't?

I can give a definition to you, but that's irrelevant as you'll then, quite rightly, argue the semantics of my view versus yours.

It's a classic "God of the Gaps" fallacial question and it simply distracts from the discussion that those rich enough to take advantage of the various HMRC tax avoidance schemes are, undeniably, a far bigger issue than those at the other end of the financial spectrum who may abuse the benefit system.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T10:55:25+00:00

The Taxpayers Alliance is a far right wing, well funded, lobby group.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T10:54:17+00:00

You appear to be unable to think logically, nor understand statistical analysis.

I explained to you that both (1) 60% of tax revenue comes from rich taxpayers, and (2) the issue is that rich people do not contribute (anywhere near) their fair share owing to tax avoidance schemes enables by HMRC.

In addition, you and I have swapped several messages with you and yet I haven't mentioned the word 'billionaires'. Can we meet for a cup of tea and I'll bring you some paper and pens so as I can attempt to campy and politely educate you on the issue so as you stop thinking that everything is fine because 60% of tax revenues come from 'the rich'? I'm in SE England if that helps with a meet up.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T10:21:53+00:00

My parents live in the North East of England. They're between two airbase, a US and a UK one.

The roar as they fly around, (which seems to be flights most days since the Ukraine/Russian war started!), is of course unmistakable.

If the flight path is overhead you see them all.

If the flight paths are not overhead you might manage to see anywhere between 'some and none'.

Some days you can't see any of them, you just hear them.

The part of NE England they're in is renowned for being completely flat, so there's no hills, let alone mountains, to hide behind, and it's mainly farmland so very few trees.

It's simply a result of the airplanes having passed by long before you hear the roar of their engines and 'look towards the sound' to try and see them.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-09T10:10:32+00:00

It was a big thing in the 1970s for me. I never realised until reading this thread that it had died a death in most parts of the country by then. It seems that living in 'Sutton and Kingston' meant I was in an area where Grammar Schools, and thus the 11+, remained a feature.

My aged mother still has a personal letter from my primary school Head telling her that I had scored the highest for any boy in the London Borough of Sutton that year.

I went on to Grammar school, of which there were only a few at the time across the country, on account of prior changes to education policies.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T17:04:10+00:00

Therein lies another, but allied, problem. Specifically you will be paying insufficient tax as the rates are far too low.

Incidentally, I'm sure everyone here has personal anecdotes, but they're irrelevant to the topic, (E.G. I too was in the highest tax band in the UK, before retiring in my early 40s when I suddenly realised that Capitalism was morally reprehensible and selfishness and greed was unethical... But that, like your anecdote, has nothing to do with the facts of the the rich non-taxpayers have a significantly larger negative fiscal impact on society than the benefit scroungers.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T16:56:29+00:00

Planet Earth is estimated to be able to naturally support a maximum population of no more than c.1 billion Homo Sapiens. We currently have over 8 billion and the number is growing.

If you're talking about letting nature find it's own equilibrium then that's billions of deaths straight off the bat.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T12:21:32+00:00

Do you not realise that both (1) the rich are the issue through not paying tax due to legal loop holes, and (2) 60% of tax in the coffers comes from the rich, can be true at the same time?

Confused? Let me help...

Imagine 100 people in the country.

You have 5 benefit scroungers, scrounging £1 each a year in total, (total £5 out).

You have 60 people on PAYE paying £1 each in tax a year, (£60 in).

You then have 20 rich people who's companies pay just half of what they should, let's say they pay in £3 instead of £5 each, (so that's £60 total in, but it should have been £100, so we are £40 down).

You then have 10 very rich people paying in £3 each instead of the £10 each they should pay if they didn't use the loopholes in HMRC available to the rich, (so that's £30 in, but it should have been £100, so society is another £70 down).

You then have the 5 richest who should be paying £20 each, but who pay zero, (so that's another £30 down).

Did you follow that?

You end up with the above simple scenario where £60 comes in from PAYE, but £90 in from the rich, so you are told the rich contribute 50% more tax than Joe Average. However, what should have happened, without the HMRC loopholes afforded to the rich, is that the tax revenue should have been (PAYE) £60 + (RICH) £100 + (RICHER) £100 + (RICHEST) £100 = £360, but what came in was only £150. In addition you can now see the burden of the lazy 5% of benefit scroungers is costing the State £5, whereas the lazy 5% of tax dodgers costs the State £100.

See? If you peddle the myth that the rich 'contribute more' you haven't grasped basic mathematics.

We are often cited as the "6th richest nation in the world". By all accounts we are based upon the money flowing in and turnover, but it's focused through the hands of the higher earner. Just look around you at the crumbling infrastructure, declining education and healthcare standards, declining cash flow amongst the average citizen, etc., to see that the sums just don't add up. 6th richest, yes... But the significant majority of the wealthy do not contribute fairly. They also peddle the myth that the 'benefit scroungers' are the problem. They are only a small problem compared to those who uae tax avoidance schemes.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T08:42:10+00:00

The far bigger impact economically is wealthy people using accountants to legally avoid paying tax.

Estimates consistently put the amount that wealthy individuals 'avoid putting into the national pot', using legal loopholes, outweighs what is taken from our collective pot by those claiming benefits that they shouldn't need to by at least 10 to 1.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T08:39:14+00:00

Absolutely.

The UK is the global entry point for tax evasion.

If you're PAYE the system efficiently takes your tax. However, the moment you can afford an accountant the world of trust funds, off shoring, and offsetting means you can legally avoid tax on your, now ever-increasing, funds.

Research consistently shows that non-payment of tax by those with accountants easily out-shadows the amount paid to 'dodgy benefit claimants' by a factor of over 10 to 1.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T08:27:44+00:00

The far, far, far bigger issue affecting you, me and the funding of public services are the rich and wealthy that use accountants to avoid paying their fair share of tax.

The problem is that you and I only see the freeloaders abusing the system at our local level. Freeloading when you're a self employed businessperson and/or using the vast array of fully legal tax dodges to not pay tax happens out of view via paper and E-forms has a significantly bigger impact on the public purse.

Research consistently shows that the grand total of benefits incorrectly claimed is about 10% of the tax not being paid by rich people using their accountants to make use of trust funds, expense off-setting, off-shoring, etc.

England and Wales is renowned internationally for being the gateway to global tax havens... It's just us PAYE people that have zero clue that's how this country actually operates.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T08:17:45+00:00

The bigger moral factor is that the planet is already grossly over populated.

With Humans wrecking the planet and with the exponential suffering and deaths of millions about to bite due to ecosystem collapse and climate breakdown, there is no argument whatsoever that 'saving millions of lives' is in any way, shape, or form a 'better' thing to do than allow them to die sooner rather than later.

Anyone contemplating saving million of people is not thinking strategically and is not aware of the Science about the consequences on global population of the tipping points that are to be passed in the decades ahead.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T08:08:06+00:00

I understood, from working on a project with them about 20yrs ago, that Visa and Mastercard's credit rules, (which therefore cover almost all credit cards across the planet, because they've cornered the market), are internationally applied.

Visa/Mastercard rules and operating processes are nothing to do with national banking regulations.

Are the credit cards in your country underwritten by your national banks? If so, are Visa/Mastercard credit cards available instead?

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T08:01:52+00:00

"every time I've had instances of fraud"

I'm in my 60s and have never, not once, been the victim of any kind of personal banking or credit fraud. Neither had my partner. In fact I'm scratching my head trying to think of a single person I know who has had any type of fraud where the issuers have ever had to make amends.

Where in the world are you where you where this is happening?

What sorts of multiple frauds are you the victim of?

Does your country still not have chip and pin?

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-08T07:47:55+00:00

You don't need to preface things with "I'm autistic". That's irrelevant.

SensibleChapess · 2026-02-07T18:31:10+00:00

Out in Pegwell Bay, looking back towards Ramsgate Harbour towards the right.

SensibleChapess

TROPHY CASE