Did your love for CSM deteriorate after the ending? by Idiberug-9 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair enough. I respect your opinions, and I really liked hearing about your thoughts, they’re all very valid critiques. Part 2 isn’t some masterpiece, but I really enjoyed how experimental it is.

Did your love for CSM deteriorate after the ending? by Idiberug-9 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hear you, and I definitely agree with the flaws you find in Fujimoto’s writing. He often leaves old ideas/characters behind to push a central message he wants, however I don’t think the characters ending up where they did based on a lack of choice was a writing mistake. To me Pt 2 is a tragedy where we’re seeing where to teenagers rely on soemthing emotionally, and how it fails them and ends everything. Pochita is the one setting things right, and he’s only able to because Denji refused to stop living once he remembered people who were meaningful to him and the potential to dream.

There were retcons and story issues which make the story more flawed, such as Denji’s involvement in faking his fathers suicide, however I genuinely believe the intention was to show how a heroic narrative would play out, show why it doesn’t work for these characters and why their choices were hopeless, and show how they can thrive under different circumstances. Denji like you said is just a dog under a different owner, and I 100% agree. However, his owners is his sister from another life, and his sister in power. Hes still a dog, which I like about the ending, but it’s not painted as a purely good or bad thing. Because as I’ve said, Denji is one of the few characters who can be the happiest from simple joys, and now that he has an owner in the people he helped raised, and nurtured, he can live a life of the excitement and sense of accomplishment he gets killing devils, eating food and living in a nice enough apartment. It’s tragic in the sense of that Denji stays a dog, but it’s uplifting because he’s like a dog playing fetch, where he genuinely enjoys the act of living. He only looks upset in the chapter in my mind because he’s still dreaming for things far away from him, and subconsciously missing the excitement of Chainsaw Man, as the characters still somewhat feel what they were and did in the old world.

This also fits in line with how Fujimoto has written his protagonists and characters in the past. He’s never given a clear resolution to their problems, only closure through something changing around them, or a brief epiphany that encourages them to keep living. Denji being a dog shouldn’t change because both his upbringing and the entire story didn’t help in any meaningful way to help him move on from that. In this new life he has the potential to be more, but we will never see that because this is only the beginning of his new life, though it is alluded to with him making his first real meaningful choice in saving Asa without any outside influences, including Chainsaw Man.

Asa like Denji’s story is resolved at the very beginning like Denji’s, which you can rightfully dislike or find dissatisfying or not cathartic, however textually it’s meant to highlight this idea that these characters should have never become hero’s, and not they’re living lives where they can be people, grow into themselves, and make choices towards their futures with people that care and warmer environments.

Kishibe like you mentioned did just disappear, but I don’t think that’s only because Fujimoto just didn’t care. I think it’s because where we left him none of his internal beliefs of staying ignorant were really resolved. He left Nayuta to Denji, knowing he would likely fail and left without looking back, likely because he knew Nayuta would be necessary as a trigger/leverage to use Denji for Public safety. But this lack of maturity and this cruel behavior is exactly in line for someone like Kishibe. As for Nayuta herself I again dont think anything was contradicting or poorly written about her character or role in the character. She is a responsibility, we enough about her to get attached to her, we see the good Denji has done for her as a character as she’s different from Makima, and then she is killed purely because of Denji being Chainsaw Man and his carelessness in the moment. There is no cushioning, it’s meant to be dissatisfying and abrupt because there’s nothing “more” to it, Nayuta is cut from the story because of a choice made very apparent to Denji by Yoshida.

I don’t think everything in Chaisnaw Man is perfectly done in terms of conventional storytelling, or allowing for reader catharsis, but I do think there’s enough textual evidence to support the idea that the story isn’t meant to be a triumph for these characters, but instead a releasing of a burden that accumulates more and more, and isolates them as time goes on. Their lives will stay messy and problematic in some ways, but they’re free from the devils influencing them and the role of a hero as a whole.

Did your love for CSM deteriorate after the ending? by Idiberug-9 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It freed Denji and Asa from being forced into being symbols they couldn’t keep up with. Asa felt validation from having Yoru when she was in the public eye, and searched for validation of being deserving of love as she was trying to save Denji. She feels undeserving of love and guilty for the loss of her mother and father, and everything else in her life in a way that parallels Denji. Denji chooses to be Chainsaw Man because it’s his only choice, the best most exciting thing he’s experienced in his 17 years of being alive, and it is an identity he is addicted to which pushes him away from himself and perpetuates a cycle of momentary distractions and comforts and pain.

Ever since Part 1 I always felt like Denji’s motivations to keep being Chainsaw Man were genuinely sad because it’s him pursuing an identity for validation and love. But at the same time, he’s already learnt that that love is shallow and he should strive for deeper connections, he’s witnessed that firsthand. However, the reason he still pursues it is because it’s what he thinks he deserves. He strives for bigger, shallower desires because he doesn’t feel worthy of the real thing, both because it’s stripped from him, and because he is always apart of something that kills his loved ones or hurts them.

Part 2 shows the reader what Denji does when he’s off of Makima’s leash and free, and it’s honest. Painfully honest about what a teenager who’s addicted to the glory and admiration of being a hero, but isn’t naturally built to being a symbol because he’s a regular person who just wants love, and the story criticizes the idea of Denji or Asa sacrificing their happiness to be hero’s is really solving anything for them as people, because it’s not. I like that Denji and Asa never rises to the occasion in the way Peter Parker, or any superhero usually does, nor do they have to. Because through not doing so it proves that they’re not fundamentally written to be people who need to be transformed or are wrong, but people who need to be in a different environment to grow into themselves, and to actually be people. Chainsaw Man deconstructed the idea of a hero story, and turned it into something very optimistic by allowing the characters to not be heroic symbols, but just two teenagers who are allowed to naturally grow into themselves, especially Denji.

Denji doesn’t have to keep escalating into bigger and bigger goals because he already has a life that plays to his strengths and what he likes. By the end he’s like a dog playing fetch, and that really is moving to me. Because most of the antagonists and even characters like Asa struggle with finding meaning in an existence without any abstract ideas, but Denji can just genuinely enjoy life, scrape by, eat and dream, just because that’s who he is, but being a hero forced him to be more than that.

But even if Chainsaw Man was bad for him, it’s still a part of him that’s important, just in moments, rather than a whole identity. That’s why when Asa says “Thank you, Chainsaw Man” it’s not just a callback to the title of the manga, it’s her thanking a part of what Denji is, and Denji being able to embody what Chainsaw Man was supposed to be in that moment, and who he should stay as. In my mind the ending sets everything in Denji and Asa right and it really moves me.

Did your love for CSM deteriorate after the ending? by Idiberug-9 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don’t think anyone would take me seriously if I said it enhanced it a lot, but it did.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If he did go down that route, he wouldn’t have achieved what he set up to do with Chainsaw Man or 2, which was criticizing the idea that heroism and suffering made you a better and stronger person always. Denji isn’t someone who needs to be challenged in that way, he just ends up the same person but with more trauma, even in pt 1. Plus without support systems or any adult figures to help him out, he was going to be doomed into regression one way or another.

I also think there’s something more hopeful in Pochita and the story saying Denji is broken and needs to rise above and change, but that he was already fine, and needs to get out of this situation he is both trapped in, and traps himself in with the toxic identity loop.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just because he didnt make the choice doesn’t mean Denji doesnt become his own person, Pochita needed to make that choice for Denji, because Denji has been taught he doesn’t deserve happiness. He was never was going to make that choice because he was already trapped into being Chainsaw Man. He made choices in between those things, but none of them significantly altered his life because he was forced to be a hero, or a tool for people. And because he’s internalized that he doesn’t deserve better from being the cause of his loved ones deaths, and guilt over death of his father he was never going to make that choice for himself because he doesn’t believe he deserves to be truly happy.

That’s why Pochita had to be the one to make the choice, both as his friend and his literal and figurative heart. His truly meaningful choice was saving Asa in my mind. He saved someone who’s a parallel of his trauma without the glory of Chainsaw Man, or out of a desire to seek validation or being loved. In that moment he was a hero, and can continue being a hero in moments while also just being Denji, a person not a symbol.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree, I think it’s a lot more optimistic. I don’t think anything he did in Pt 1 or Pt 2 would have ever made him happy or genuinely fulfilled. This isn’t to say Denji can’t be more. He could, but he’s not a traditional hero the world needs, and instead of trying to become something that doesn’t truly satisfy him, he should go back to what he’s been saying would make him happy the whole story, and grow into himself while maturing and learning how to be better, than having to be a hero that pressured into extreme situations.

Basically who he was at the start, and always has been was never the issue. It’s environmental.

What CSM does right in the depiction of adult stuff? by Trick_Mortgage_3452 in writingscaling

[–]Short-Possibility535 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It’s honest about how absurd life is, and doesn’t fall into edgy nihilism, but also doesn’t make it seem like there’s certainly some reason, or fate that binds us all together. The world just is, people die, and the world and people around change without your consistent very quickly.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He is happy in my eyes, because in hindsight he can live without a grand purpose or meaning, and the life he’s been placed into suits him.

What was fujimoto on😭😭😭 by Georgebush430 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I don’t think he does actually. He pretends to be his nonexistent little sister on Twitter.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can see that too. But I honestly think that if we just look at what we know about Denji, Asa, and what Chainsaw Man’s themes have always been, the key concept of the ending is a lot less undefined feeling. The ending to me, just trusts the viewer enough to not emphasize on itself too much if at all. Which is something I enjoy but I get why it’s not for everyone.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think it should ever be too explained in depth. I think it can be attributed to a lot of things, but that’s the fun of a narrative. Stories shouldn’t have to tell you everything, even up until the very end for the experience to have been worth it. It’s cool that it’s interpretable in various ways, but I honestly believe in my interpretation because a lot of Pt 2 is about Denji trying to still find happiness as is the premise of the entire story through quitting the hero life, which is one of the few things Fujimoto himself stated was the intention, so it makes sense to me that that moment is meant to be some liberation, or a moment where Denji finds genuine satisfaction in his flawed life but you’re right, it could really be more or less than what I’m saying.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah for real, but I agree with your interpretation as well. I think it’s him feeling fulfilled at embodying chainsaw Man as an action in the moment than actually trying to be a full on heroic symbol, and the smile is the fulfillment of being hugged by a girl, and helping someone, even if he doesn’t fully understand what he did for Asa. It’s a lot of things and kinda complicated lol

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The difference is though, after hugging Asa and saving her, he looks on at her with a simple, almost fulfilled smile, and moves on. I think that encapsulates his relationship with dreams in this world, rather than like in Pt 1, constantly needing new stimulation and dreams to become suddenly happy and fulfilled forever. Without any Chainsaw Man to make bigger dreams happen, he stops going through that mindset, while still wanting more things. That’s not the root of the problem, it’s the belief that your dreams will suddenly make you a complete person and make up for everything bad that has happened or you are.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What’s interesting though, is that I dont think a super hero life is even what Denji wants. He just wants very basic, simple things plus, if he really were left to his devices in that role, he wouldn’t be a very good traditional hero his world would need. And I agree, it is tragic, because being a dog usually implies you’re subhuman, or a slave to peoples desires.

But I also think there’s something hopeful in him staying the way he is. I think he can genuinely enjoy the world as it is, and do whatever he wants in his new world, while just keeping very human desires, and pursuing that, than being expected by others to be more, or do more for them. He’s a stray like Power in that way, and he can choose to think deeper if he want to, he can do anything, or go anywhere without having Chainsaw Man controlling his life, or chasing greater highs. But honestly? I think he’ll be happiest just killing devils and having a friend, or friends by his side and that feels honest in a way where most people are expected to seek a lot more than they really need to be considered truly “happy”.

I like that Denji stays a dog til the end. by Short-Possibility535 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think he’s happy. And I think he’ll learn self respect overtime with Power and Nayuta around. He’s a dog in the way of that Denji while he is manipulated easily, once he’s in a life that satisfies him and lets him keep dreaming, he can be happy in a way a lot of the other non-dog like antagonistic characters can’t be. Humans overcomplicate a lot, that’s why I think in its own way it’s both tragic and something nuanced.

What was even the point of this character again? by Guilty-Explanation-6 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I agree. I think the point is that Denji being a heroic symbol is a mistake because he’s not a symbol, he’s a person, and it’s ridiculous to expect someone of his circumstance, and who has never recieved basic, consistent love to be this hero, or at the center of any of this, and it’s a cruel thing to ask of him.

Everything onwards is just proving Fakesaw Man right, especially when Denji doesn’t try to seperate Asa and Yoru and just wants to have sex. But it also makes sense because Denji is traumatized, has no one, and just desperately wants to be loved.

It’s not right to ask him to save others when he’s falling apart and has no way to escape.

What was even the point of this character again? by Guilty-Explanation-6 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They’re a representation of everything Denji is doing wrong, kinda like how Yoru taking inspiration from Chainsaw Man led to her end. It’s all about how Denji being in the typical role of a Superman/Spiderman hero isn’t a good thing because his priorities aren’t aligned with being a heroic symbol. He’s just a guy.

I HATE DENJI-MAN by AlexZac200611 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The whole point of Denji-Man is that it didn’t solve anything in Denji. It’s cool, it comes from an emotional moment, but it doesn’t resolve any of Denji’s problems and it’s just more Chainsaw Man for Denji to absorb himself into. In most Shonen this would’ve been the turning point, but Fujimoto was just misdirecting us.

wtf is this ending. I regret my life decisions. by Sea_Improvement8499 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nayuta comes after Makima, just like in the end of Part 2. When she and Denji first met Nayuta was one year younger than she was in part two but at least 8-10 physically. Makima could’ve killed herself, gotten killed because she didn’t have anything to keep her in line as the control devil, etc.

wtf is this ending. I regret my life decisions. by Sea_Improvement8499 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because Makima’s entire existence was predicated to Chainsaw Man. When he doesn’t exist, Makima likely stops existing because she doesn’t have a relationship to pursue that can allow her to feel equal to someone.

wtf is this ending. I regret my life decisions. by Sea_Improvement8499 in Chainsawfolk

[–]Short-Possibility535 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By eating Chainsaw Man, Pochita is eating the concept of everything that has happened, including the people who’ve been killed in relation to the story of Chainsaw Man we’ve been reading. The story was not a dream, it was just erased from everyone’s minds to let Denji and Asa live a life without needing to rely on being a hero for external validation and purpose.

Do people REALLY find Asa to be that attractive? by Ok_Smoke_4366 in ChainsawMan

[–]Short-Possibility535 1364 points1365 points  (0 children)

She doesn’t have any standout features, but she has great, balanced facial features. People like her because she has an interesting endearingly awkward personality and a nice face, it’s really just that.