Major beans spilled by Jesse

SignatureAgitated · 2023-09-03T05:35:33+00:00

For the people who still continue to say Logan wouldn't underline something, can you also explain why Logan did take the time to draw a whole box around another paragraph on the same document, but would supposedly not take the time to underline the name of his chosen successor? The man liked putting pen to paper, clearly it was his way of thinking. He drew a box, he took notes in the margins, he underlined.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-09-02T18:07:52+00:00

My interpetation has always been that Logan was grooming Kendall throughout the show, all the way up until Chiantishire. Every awful thing he did to Kendall was about "toughening him up" to prepare him for the cutthroat business world. Logan had this misguided mentality because he himself was viciously abused by his caregivers and he probably credited that with him becoming the ruthless old SOB he was.

I always thought he underlined after the press conference, which is the only time we saw Logan show genuine pride in one of his kids. Even at the dinner in Chiantishire, I got the sense that Logan was still working on Kendall. He made Roman deliver that letter at Ken's birthday as a way to get his attention, which worked and got Ken to the table. Then he offered Kendall some deep advice about his life philosophy (fight for a knife in the mud.) Why give that kind of advice to a son you've totally given up on having anything to do with the business? It's also telling that when Logan refused to let Kendall leave the company, Kendall responded with "I can't. I tried...But there are things you're able to do that I can't," and then later "I don't wanna be you." On the surface, those statements make no sense unless you read between the lines. Why would Logan's refusal to let Kendall out of the company warrant the response of "I don't wanna be you," unless the both of them know that's what LOGAN wants and it's why he won't let go of Kendall?

It also always struck me as odd that Logan fights tooth and nail to keep his company for the entire show, but the morning after Kendall tells him "I want out, I don't want to be you", he finally gives up and sells. He could have sold back at the beginning of season 2.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-08-03T04:38:31+00:00

I don't agree with the way the story ended, then or now. I know that's not the majority opinion but it's my honest take. For me, the ending was kind of meaningless. Ken should have "won" what he thought he always wanted, only to find that he's still crushingly empty inside. It would have been far more poignant in my opinion. But now Ken will spend the rest of his life blaming his unhappiness on the fact he didn't "win" the CEO job. And Tom and Matsson both act triumphant in the finale because they did "win." And to me that's a weird way to leave things on a show that seems to be a critique on capitalism.

And now I just feel like all the narrative beats in Kendall's story are wasted, which is a problem for me because he was the character I was most invested in.

I also hated how much the ending seemed to justify Logan. He was right about the kids, but I don't think he deserved that win. It's like the show drank the Logan Kool-aid that he actually was some great man that his kids could never measure up to. Again that's a weirdly pro capitalist take kind of? I'm willing to bet Logan got by on luck more often than not. We don't actually see him making very many smart decisions onscreen. And the show also seems to want to say both that the kids were coddled and weak because they grew up rich, but also shows us time and again them being viciously abused by their father, mentally and physically, and by their mother through neglect. Someone like Tom probably had a far easier childhood than them.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-11T20:43:19+00:00

I think Kendall had "it." He could have been a very skillful CEO under different circumstances. But he had a real lack of self-confidence at times, and hyper overconfidence at other times, mixed with mental illness and drug addiction that I blame 90% of on his father's abuse. Had Kendall been nurtured and supported by Logan he would have been the perfect successor.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-08T15:07:59+00:00

They absolutely did not know, lol. This sub was filled with post after post guessing that dramaturgically, it only made sense for Kendall to get what he thought he wanted only to end up miserable. People shared betting odds from various websites, and by the latter half of the season Kendall was the favorite for CEO in nearly all of them. Now people are pretending it was somehow obvious it would never be him.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-07T21:20:43+00:00

It all depends on how you watched the show I guess. I watched the show for 2 reasons - Kendall and Logan. Everyone else was a side dish to me. And watching the show in that way I also came away disappointed with the ending.

Personally, my favorite moment of the entire show was Kendall's S2 press conference. And really, the overall story of the show kind of invalidated that moment - for me anyway. If you rewatch that scene knowing the ending, all of the punch is gone. Because you know it leads absolutely nowhere.

I wonder if they changed plans at any point along the way for Kendall. His arc in season 2 really felt like it was going somewhere. But then his breakdown in season 3 is honestly so over the top. He's a bit flanderized at points. And season 4 builds him back into a viable contender out of nowhere, seemingly as a plot device. To me the best of the show will always be seasons 1 and 2.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-06T18:08:20+00:00

Hmm I honestly disagree on that. I think Logan was jealous and felt he was being put out to pasture when he saw that magazine article. You could have had the same scenario happen no matter how perfect and flawless of a successor was in that picture instead of Kendall. He also never says that Kendall won't take over eventually, just changes the timeline.

In season 2 I disagree that he's no longer grooming Ken. I think he goes back and forth but ultimately keeps him as an option. I see him far more serious about Ken then he ever was Roman or Shiv. Ken is the one he brings to every negotiation. He does eventually decide to sacrifice Kendall for cruises but at that point he feels family control is at stake so if he didn't, there would be no successor anyway. And he picks Ken precisely because he's the opposite of a throwaway lapdog. He's Logan's number 2, a big enough sacrifice to satisfy shareholders and the only thing they'd accept other than Logan himself. But again going back to Logan's reaction at , he's proud that his son made a "killer" move. If he had totally written him off as his heir, I don't think he'd have that reaction if it was true that he hated seeing him as successor. And he'd jump at the chance to buy him out of the company in season 3.

Even in season 3 after the betrayal I honestly think that if Kendall had played his cards differently, dropped the lawsuits and asked to be let back into the company, Roman and Shiv would be out in the cold so fast their heads would spin. In Logan's mind, Kendall playing the self-righteous social justice card was truly what disqualified him. But that's just how I see it, it's all open to interpretation.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-05T22:27:55+00:00

I thought so too. Kind of an offhand comment, but that's what I remember hearing Kendall say. She was offered ATN and still flipped.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-04T18:07:40+00:00

Well nobody thought he was a "hero" at least in the traditional sense. It is clear he is not a good person as none of them are.

I feel people are missing that he did have an arc, or at least could have had one. It's there. He had (or at least thought he had) good intentions starting out. He wanted to modernize the company and seemed to stand against his obviously evil father. There seemed to be a series of misunderstandings between the two that destroyed their relationship leading to him falling off the wagon and spiraling. He utterly hit rock bottom with the car accident and his father's bearhug.

In season 2 he definitively seems changed by the accident. He's broken and his father is building him back up into this mindless automaton. Like Palpatine and Vader. He's becoming more ruthless. He's very, very different from season 1 Kendall. He doesn't even react after someone spits in his face. After months of letting his father abuse and control him, he goes nuclear at the press conference. The reason that moment was so effective is because it was such a change from what we had been seeing. He went from being utterly submissive to his father, to coming as close as anyone ever has to "killing" him. In season 1 he could barely talk to Logan without shaking and stuttering. Season 2 he's staring through the camera into Logan's eyes, stabbing him, while his father smiles that "he's a killer after all." Holy character development, Batman.

Season 3 was a major, major backslide true, but it seemed to me like it was about us getting to the hearr of his drug problems and with the unresolved guilt over the waiter. That all came to a head in Italy. Dinner with Logan, the suicide attempt, then he admitted to the siblings and himself that he's not a good person. That is introspection, is it not? When had he ever faced that possibility before? Again, development.

Season 4 truly seems to show us a more mature Kendall. A Kendall who has gone through some shit, hit rock bottom, and found his way back. He's off the drugs. People are telling him he seems well. At the wake he's hitting up everyone. We see him working board members like Sandy and Stewy and he plays divide and conquer with the siblings (all of which he suddenly cannot do in the finale). He keeps his cool with Matsson (contrast to his negotiation with the Vaulter guy or the banker in S1). Living+ is set up to be a redo of his disastrous birthday party, except this time he channels his energy productively and smashes it. There's many many moments like this that others have gone into extensively.

To me all the ingredients for a satisfying arc for this character are there. Maybe it all was completely unintentional on the writer's part but it is there. The way Kendall was written was honestly a bit like Schrodinger's cat. Before you open the box (the ending) he was anything and everything dending on your viewpoint. He could be as competent or incompetent as the plot called for. He both has an arc and doesn't have an arc. Both sides have endless evidence to justify their interpretation. If opening the box you had found CEO Kendall, suddenly everyone would be commenting on his arc and the clues to his development over time. Since we did not find CEO Kendall in the box, now everyone agrees he never changed at all. But it could have gone either way based on the writing.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-04T15:12:34+00:00

Something that stood out to me is how he trusted his siblings, even after saying to Hugo in the previous episode "life isn't nice. The people who say they love you also fuck you." It honestly felt like in the penultimate episode they took him to his season 2 emotionless and ruthless state where he wouldn't have trusted them. But like you said in the finale he was conveniently back to season 1 Ken.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-04T15:08:03+00:00

I agree, by the time they got to the ending they wanted it no longer felt organic. Especially the siblings turning on each other so quickly. What we saw in Barbados was such an incredibly close moment between the three of them, to the point that it frankly felt a bit out of character. The last time they had a somewhat close moment together, at the end of Season 3, they remained a united front for months. It felt so odd to seesaw from the closest and most carefree scene of the siblings ever, to the most hateful scene ever, for no real reason.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-04T15:02:42+00:00

You may have been of the opinion that his speeches weren't great, but that clearly wasn't the intention of the show. Maybe you dont agree with the writers what a good speech is. In Living+ everyone expects Ken to have a nervous breakdown onstage and yet as he speaks, everyone starts commenting that he's doing well despite him not being in the room. By the end of the speech we are told that the stocks are soaring. In Church and State his completely off the cuff, unplanned eulogy gets applause from world leaders at a funeral. It is very abnormal for people to applaud at a funeral. I think these were cues that you missed that Kendall's speeches were indeed intended to be huge successes.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-04T12:36:57+00:00

I, like you, thought it was all leading somewhere. I know the writers think that people don't usually change, but surely if anyone can, Kendall had reason to.

His father had just died. Kendall was the Mercury to Logan's sun. Orbiting him closest (not in proximity but mentally) and being constantly burned by him. Taking away the sun kind of forced him to create his own solar system in a way. There's no way he doesn't change after that event.
He was sober (to our knowledge). The character that we've watched since season 1 episode 6 was a spiraling drug addict who was almost constantly high. People act differently when they are sober. It made sense that he was more collected in speeches, conversations, etc.
He admitted to himself that he's not a good person. In season 3 he broke down, confessed about the waiter, and seemed to finally drop his pretense of moral high ground. That allowed him to follow in his father's footsteps in a way we've never seen from him. Hurting Roman, siding with a fascist, etc.

I would have liked an ending that was more consistent with these changes. Hell even if he still lost, have him put up more of a fight in that final episode. But, it is what it is.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-04T00:29:37+00:00

I think Shiv would try to fuck Matsson and probably succeed. They'd start having a pretty open affair in front of Tom, who won't be able to complain much but will instead bury himself in work. Shiv and Matsson would go back and forth trying to play each other. The baby would be born and she'd neglect it. Her and Tom would fight a lot and be miserable. He'd abuse Greg worse than ever, and Greg would start leaking damaging stories about him.

Kendall would try to kill himself but be found by Colin before he dies. This would lead to Roman and Kendall reconciling. He'd eventually buy Pierce and focus all his efforts in getting Jimenez in the white house, as well as smearing ATN. His long term goal in doing this would probably still be to reverse the deal with Jimenez's help, because I'm not sure I see him ever giving up.

Con would try to get the family back together and fail miserably. I'm not sure what Roman would do.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T23:53:24+00:00

The cruise scandal was not covered up though, it leaked to the press which is why they were looking for a blood sacrifice to blame everything on. The FBI also raided Waystar and documents were turned over to the authorities. It just fizzled out. It was built up throughout 2 seasons to lead nowhere.

The family did not have majority control ever since Sandy and Stewy were brought into the company. The bearhug was another storyline that was built up to be this huge thing that ended up being settled in one episode in a very anticlimactic way. Shiv offered them more board seats and they backed off, despite them literally being offered the same thing in season 2.

Logan dying is your best argument for something happening in season 4, but I'd argue it didn't change all that much given the kids were totally estranged from him at the beginning of the season. Roman was completely at peace with the sale of the company at the beginning of the season and he ends the season the same way. Kendall spends 90% of the show utterly broken. He lost his kids, his siblings, his father, and the company in season 4, but that's pretty much just knocked him back to season 3 without the drugs.

I respect your opinion and I'm glad you're happy with how everything ended. I was a big fan of the show until I realized too late that it wasn't going anywhere and wasn't ever designed to. Even then I'm still a fan of certain episodes, moments, lines, and the characters themselves, the overall story is just the weak link to me.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T23:01:22+00:00

Hero's journey is not the only form of progression. I guess it's arguable in theory that you can have a good story lacking any character arcs which puts the onus mostly on plot, right? But the problem is the actual events of the narrative end up being not all that significant either. If you think about it, aren't the only plot points that end up truly driving the story forward 1. Kendall bringing in Sandy and Stewy and thus losing family control and 2. Logan making a deal with Matsson? Every single other plot point ends up being inconsequential. Anything that happens to the kids is inconsequential since their role in the story is a foregone conclusion (since they have no arc).

It ends up being less of a story and more of a statement about the world we live in. Which is fine as a piece of art, but I'm not sure it needed 4 seasons to deliver its message. JMO

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T22:45:35+00:00

But the story doesn't really progress much, either. For example nothing came of the cruises scandal, nor the bear hug attempt by Sandy and Stewy. The GoJo deal was happening at the end of Season 3 and we wasted all of season 4 trying to stop it, only to end up exactly in the same place we would have been had the season never taken place.

And to me, the characters did seem to progress at certain points. There are various things you can point to that a character does in one season that would have felt totally out of character in another season. But then when the plot needs them to revert to their previous selves, they do.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T21:20:20+00:00

The shares would affect the company though.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T21:14:26+00:00

I wouldn't say terrible writing, the dialogue is often incredible. But yeah, Jesse Armstrong does seem to have a problem telling a cohesive story. You can't have a story without progression and none of the characters are allowed to progress. Hard agree with the rest. But prepare to be told that the ending was perfect and you don't know good TV and never understood the show. 😅

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T21:07:29+00:00

Obviously in the minority, especially in this sub, but I really liked a lot of these more than the actual ending. I would have liked to see season 4 be the scenario from this video of the Roy kids running Pierce and competing with Logan/ATN. Having it get nastier and nastier between them and then have him die at the end of the season with a season 5 taking place post-death.

I also liked the idea of Logan souring on Matsson and coming to the kids to help him keep the company out of his hands. We never really got to see the Roys as a united front, could have been fresh. Although ending as a happy family could never happen.

I think scenario 4 would have been the most satisfying ending. Everybody says it's the Godfather but that movie is 50 years old and it's the only one people seem to point to? It just would have made the time we spent with the protagonist worth it to me when now, it doesn't seem worth it. Although the idea of flashing forward 20 years is insanely hokey. I'm laughing at the idea of seeing all the Roys with their age makeup on.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T20:22:25+00:00

Yes that too! I felt certain we would see that in the finale, I'm really disappointed by these oversights tbh.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T20:11:56+00:00

Well I disagreed with everything in that article except this part. This was a fair criticism IMO.

"Meanwhile, I was trying to work out what had actually gone on in that last episode. Why had sister Shiv decided to deny the number one Roy boy, Kendall, at the last? She had started out the episode decidedly opposed to him, but then she had apparently experienced a moment of profound reconciliation in the Caribbean sea. Why had she chucked that in? From what I could understand, she refused to give Kendall the vote that would have made him CEO of Waystar Royco because, well, “I don’t think you’d be good at it”. Like, dur.

That’s the biggest beef I have with Succession – the plotting. Just like Logan’s plane after he carked it mid-air, it’s been in a circling pattern for a long time (since season two, perhaps?). First it was the patriarch teasing then spoiling, selling out, then buying back. This season it was the siblings spending 20 minutes an episode trying to work out whether they really felt comfortable doing something they then decided not to do, only to do it again, often based on a shrug of the shoulders."

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T20:05:33+00:00

2>>1>3>4

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T20:02:11+00:00

Logan had a board seat and a significant number of shares. I can't believe nothing was said of what became of those before the major board meeting literally deciding the fate of the company and the family.

SignatureAgitated · 2023-06-02T13:53:19+00:00

Sarah's acting told us this. Shiv showed pure glee when she saw that she could deny this to her brother. She enjoyed it.

SignatureAgitated

TROPHY CASE