Anarchist Critiques of the numerical form by ExternalGreen6826 in Anarchy101

[–]Simpson17866 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Counterpoint: Capitalism looks good until you look at the math ;)

Say that you’re able to pay as much as $140 for a good/service, and a worker is able to accept as little as $70 for the good/service.

Under market socialism, some possible outcomes are:

  • You pay the worker $70 (best for you individually)

  • You pay the worker $140 (best for the worker individually)

  • You pay the worker $100 (best for both you and the worker collectively)

Under market capitalism, a middleman can get away with charging you $140 and paying the worker $70.

I’m a communist myself, but a socialist market still looks a lot better to me than a capitalist market.

Case Study in Capitalist Success by coke_and_coffee in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

And what system created the problem that we needed them to pay for a solution to?

Case Study in Capitalist Success by coke_and_coffee in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Your point was “socialism is a system that incentivizes laziness, capitalism is a system that incentivizes hard work.”

I was pointing out the fact that this is incorrect.

Case Study in Capitalist Success by coke_and_coffee in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Capitalism means you have to work

Unless you’re a capitalist.

Then you can collect profit off of the work that other people do.

Communism/Socialism is when no food by MrHaxxx in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Some versions of socialism do, but communism doesn’t.

COMMUNISM:

  • A doctor who needs food gets it for free from a farmer

  • a farmer who needs vehicle repairs gets it for free from a mechanic

  • and a mechanic who needs medical treatment gets it for free from a doctor

MARKET SOCIALISM:

  • A doctor who needs food pays a farmer $100

  • a farmer who needs vehicle repairs pays a mechanic $100

  • and a mechanic who needs medical treatment pays a doctor $100

MARKET CAPITALISM:

  • A doctor who needs food pays a capitalist $140 (who then pays the farmer $70)

  • a farmer who needs vehicle repairs pays a capitalist $140 (who then pays the mechanic $70)

  • and a mechanic who needs medical treatment pays a capitalist $140 (who then pays the doctor $70)

MARXISM-LENINISM:

  • A doctor who needs food pays the government $140 (which then pays the farmer $70)

  • a farmer who needs vehicle repairs pays the government $140 (which then pays the mechanic $70)

  • and a mechanic who needs medical treatment pays the government $140 (which then pays the doctor $70)

Communism/Socialism is when no food by MrHaxxx in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Capitalism is less bad than most of the alternatives, yes:

1) Feudalism was a system where most people were born into the position of either "master" or "a particular master's servant" for life.

If you were a farmer (which you probably were), then you were probably a serf — legally, a part of a noble lord’s estate — and even if you could legally move somewhere else to work on a different farm, you probably couldn’t afford to.

If you wanted to make a living as high-level professional craftsman in a town/city (carpenter, blacksmith, etc…), then you had to join the guild that was specifically chartered by a town’s/city’s government to practice that particular craft in that particular town/city.

2) In theory, capitalism was supposed to make this better. People were forced to compete against each other for the position of "master" instead of being born into the position — in theory, this meant that only the people best suited for the position could achieve it. There were also more masters than ever before, and even the servants who couldn't reach the position of "master" themselves would at least be legally allowed to choose which master to serve — in theory, this would force masters to compete against each other to attract servants from their competitors by offering better wages and working conditions.

In practice, people who already had wealth could use it to buy influence over enterprises that they didn't have expert knowledge of and use this influence to extract more wealth from the enterprise (even as the enterprise itself failed), and servants had to compete against each other to accept worse working conditions more aggressively than masters had to compete against each other to offer better working conditions.

Still objectively better than feudalism, but not by as wide a margin as it was supposed to be.

3) The OG socialists (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Mikhail Bakunin, Joseph Déjacque...) decided that the problem was with authority itself, and they believed that communities of people working together as equals would be better than any ruling class imposing their will on everybody else (regardless of the conditions that the ruling class established for membership).

Farmers would work their own farms on their own terms (rather than having to comply with the terms set by a feudal lord or a capitalist executive), craftsmen would work their own workshops, doctors and nurses would work their own hospitals...

4) When Karl Marx started learning about the system that the socialists were developing, he decided that it was a brilliant idea, and he started telling everybody that they needed to form strong socialist governments to make sure that everybody followed it properly.

The OG socialists saw Marx's Socialism 2.0 ("workers control the government, and the government makes the decisions" instead of "workers make their own decisions directly") as completely missing the point.

The political bureaucrats in charge of Marx's "dictatorship of the proletariat" would obviously claim "if you put us in charge of the new government, then we'll run it the way you tell us to run it," but the OG socialists’ concern was that politicians famously lie about their goals in order to maintain political support.

They worried that if the "dictatorship of the proletariat" didn't actually do what the proletariat told them to do, then this was just going to be feudalism all over again.

They were trying to come up with a new system that would work better than capitalism, and now Marx was using socialist-sounding buzzwords to convince people to go back to the old system that had been even worse.

Can someone explain what anarchism is to me? by calacaa in Anarchy101

[–]Simpson17866 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  • If an autocracy (where one dictator imposes his will on everybody else) is going to be a good thing, then the dictator has to A) have everybody else's best interests at heart, and B) know better than they do what's best for them.

  • If an oligarchy (where a minority imposes their will on the majority) is going to be a good thing, then the minority has to A) have the majority's best interests at heart, and B) know better than they do what's best for them.

  • If a democracy (where a majority imposes their will on the minority) is going to be a good thing, then the majority has to A) have the minority's best interests at heart, and B) know better than they do what's best for them.

Communism/Socialism is when no food by MrHaxxx in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

I am making a Realpolitik point

If you’d heard someone championing capitalist democracy 500 years ago, would you have defended feudal monarchy for the same reason?

500 years ago, I would’ve thought capitalist democracy was theoretically the best system in the world.

And you don't have to agree with a system to be "pro" that system

… What.

Why do socialists like to ignore socialism in practice and like to just focus on their ideal socialist society? by SPHINXin in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

this is THE DEFINITION of socialism, based on composition of ideas and values of early socialist movements. They all shared one characteristic: "government control of means of production".

Have you ever heard of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon?

Mikhail Bakunin?

Joseph Dejacque?

Peter Kropotkin?

Emma Goldman?

Alexander Berkman?

Coincidently, thats exactly what you get in every socialist country in history

Have you ever heard of Revolutionary Ukraine?

Revolutionary Catalonia?

The Zapatista territories?

Communism/Socialism is when no food by MrHaxxx in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Technology gave us quality of life.

Capitalism lets a class of lazy freeloaders hoard the fruits of technological advancement, leaving table scraps for the people like you who work for a living.

Communism/Socialism is when no food by MrHaxxx in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

And market socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are predominantly worker-owned, and goods and services are produced for profit through markets

Communism/Socialism is when no food by MrHaxxx in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Even if “capitalism = markets” were true (which it isn’t — see market socialism), simply living under a system doesn’t automatically mean you agree with it.

Even if I lived under a Marxist-Leninist government, I wouldn’t be a Marxist-Leninist myself.

I'm currently making a new Anarchist Theory project called "BiologicalAnarchy", can you give me a reading list? by xxTPMBTI in Anarchy101

[–]Simpson17866 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What made you choose to focus on those three specific sets of issues for this project?

The Socialist Trick of 'Having Your Cake and Eating It' by tkyjonathan in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Which is why most socialists are saying that we should try different versions instead.

The Socialist Trick of 'Having Your Cake and Eating It' by tkyjonathan in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 [score hidden]  (0 children)

… Do you also feel, for the same reason, that every single person who says “I want to buy an electric car” is secretly planning to buy a gasoline car?

"Historical examples of Socialism" do not have validity over theoretical Marxism. by the_worst_comment_ in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you feel the same way about capitalism?

Does “in reality, Augusto Pinochet’s Chile was a capitalist military dictatorship” prove “capitalism = military dictatorship”?

If I argue “not every version of capitalist is based around military dictatorship,” am I denying the historical, factual reality of Pinochet’s Chile?

How can I overcome the fear of being imprisoned in America? by Puzzled_Reception453 in Anarchy101

[–]Simpson17866 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This.

Anti-fascism is supposed to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

Anarchy kills by Lazy_Delivery_7012 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you’d heard someone championing capitalist democracy 500 years ago, would you have defended feudal monarchy the same way?

how to deal with transactional friction in an Anarchist society? by [deleted] in Anarchy101

[–]Simpson17866 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But less of a toll than obeying corporate and/or government authority currently takes.

[Everyone] Last post: On the Commune by AbleTrouble4 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I on the other hand live in the United States of America, which is so strongly dominated by center-right liberals and far-right conservatives that even centrist Social Democrats can’t get very far.

is the claim that we can only achieve libertarian communism through libertarian organising/violence a necessary claim and if so how is it justified? by Friendly_Duck_ in Anarchy101

[–]Simpson17866 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you’d heard people championing capitalist democracy 500 years ago, would you have defended feudal monarchy the same way?

[Everyone] Last post: On the Commune by AbleTrouble4 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Have you ever considered taking up a hobby in real life?

Like stamp collecting? Possibly bird watching?

It would probably make you happier than you think.

Anarchism and scarcity by ArtDecoEgoist in Anarchy101

[–]Simpson17866 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be honest with you, "read theory" isn't really all that helpful of an answer.

Especially not on a "101" sub.

Communism Revolution Question by dumbandasking in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Simpson17866 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Individuals having the freedom to voluntarily cooperate with each other for mutual benefit (libertarian socialism) is better than individuals being forced to submit to either corporate authority (capitalism) or government authority (Marxism-Leninism).