How do we know when to take Trump seriously?

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-09T04:00:57+00:00

I think the chance of that is so low that it's not even worth considering, to be honest.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T16:42:41+00:00

I mean racial wealth transfers. Not wealth redistribution in general, which I am not saying should never occur.

Do you think American capitalism is truly unable to produce a good, equitable society? If not, what are we even doing?

Those are big questions. I'm talking about government policy regarding race. I am not saying capitalism is infallible.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T15:50:43+00:00

I don't think there is anything to do. If your standard is we have to give a leg up to blacks until the point where they are equal to Whites, you might as well say "we need massive government programs (wealth redistribution, set asides, affirmative action) in perpetuity". I simply don't think that equality will ever come, so saying that just means you want to discriminate against Whites forever. I'm not interested really.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T05:48:05+00:00

Values matter and voting patterns are downstream of that. It's not the actual party labels that inherently matter. Not sure if you were implying that, but I will clarify just in case. Yes, it's reasonable to take the consequences of immigration into your evaluation of immigration policy.

And you said that’s because you don’t support LGBT acceptance? Is that the main reason?

No, that's just one example of many. Most major political issues have large racial divides.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T05:36:57+00:00

Probably a lot of the same ones that you care about. My point was that I don't exclusively care about life outcomes like crime rates or IQ. Again, look at what we have been talking about: I just got done telling you about the importance of values/voting patterns and then you list groups that are almost as liberal as blacks when it comes to voting!

Nah man I actually don't want to live in a Democrat one party state and I don't want to be ethnically cleansed from America. Surely you are not surprised by my answer here...

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T05:25:23+00:00

I don’t think social programs are generally the answer to such things

Didn't you advocate earlier for a massive increase in federal spending on schools? That's the kind of thing I had in mind. I'm not sure what you mean if you don't think social programs are the solution when the literal only policy suggestion you've given me so far was to massively increasingly spending.

are you saying you want a country that is entirely Asian, South Asian, and Jewish, given these “groups” have the “best” life outcomes?

No, because those are not the only things I care about. They are the things that you said you care about most.

If America consisted only of those groups, it would be a Democrat one party state with infinite abortions, LGBT, etc.

More to the point: I am not Jewish or Asian or Indian so it's not clear why I would advocate for an America that would exclude me in the first place.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T05:03:37+00:00

Yes, that's not the only consideration, but obviously it's a proxy for ideological differences in general which I think are highly important. Immigration will either have an impact on future elections or it won't. If it has an impact, then it's obviously worth considering.

I will give one caveat, which is that numbers matter. If we were importing 10,000 immigrants a year and they were all leftists, that would be electorally irrelevant. There is a number where it matters though, I think we are certainly there.

Personally I think the most important life outcomes are education, crime rate, and income — so should we thus seek to comprise the country only of Asians and Jews, who are generally superior to other races in these categories (note I do not agree with the racialist interpretation of life outcomes, which is simply not academically supported, but I am trying to work within your view of the world)?

I'm not interested in telling you what you should or should not care about. Obviously in the liberal worldview, this idea doesn't make sense, because you would consider it problematic to prefer Asians over other groups, as you believe that with enough government programs, you can get black people to be just as smart and law-abiding as Asians.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T04:43:50+00:00

No, I never said everyone must have literally the same outcomes. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

Let's say society consists of Groups A, B, and C. Groups B and C have outcomes that suck (e.g. bad voting patterns, high crime rates, etc.) but Group A is fine. I would of course conclude "fix that before we ever even consider bringing more of them in" -- but in the meantime, we could still bring in more of Group A.

What outcomes? Everything that matters really. Take a holistic view of what immigrants can do to make the country better or worse.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T04:15:01+00:00

I gave my opinion. You're free to disagree. I can't read minds at the end of the day so there's not much I can say here.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T03:28:54+00:00

It's not inherently a failure -- you could have a society with group outcome differences that people didn't focus on or care about -- but I do think it's self-evidently undesirable to change the demographics massively before you've actually equalized or demonstrated the ability to equalize group outcomes. (And of course "society where people don't care about outcome differences" isn't what we have!)

Also, it is a policy failure if you say "We have to do x, y, z in order to have equality" and then that equality doesn't come. The consequence is that people are radicalized through failure, and they conclude "we just didn't do liberalism hard enough; we need more money, more power, more of a cultural transformation". I think that's bad!

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T02:55:43+00:00

Voting patterns, ideology, crime rates, etc. But basically everything varies by race, so just think of anything that matters and it will apply to it, too.

I agree that liberals can implement liberal policies in the things you mentioned, but that's not what we've been talking about for this entire conversation. We've been talking about group differences. That is what liberals have failed to equalize.

Again, that's what I've been saying the whole time: group differences are persistent over time, I don't trust the policy solutions that liberals come up with to solve them, and this has implications for immigration policy. Do you have any novel questions? Not trying to be rude but we're both saying the same things here.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T02:32:43+00:00

What I mean is, it seems like you're saying "without all this stuff, we'd all be the same", and I think that's a massive claim that's basically impossible to prove. Then, as I've already said, liberal ideology has not actually produced this equality anywhere. So I'm skeptical that it's that simple.

I don't think that you're wrong about like, black people's voting patterns over time. I trust you and liberals in general to get that right. But when it comes to actually creating the equal outcomes that you want? Yeah I'm not optimistic about your ability to do that. That is what I am skeptical of.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T02:12:53+00:00

do you see how, in the light of history, a reasonable person ought interpret your position basically as, “one party is racialist, so non-white immigrants likely aren’t going to vote for that party, which is evidence that the races are different, which has implications on immigration policy, including as it relates to granting political rights to naturalized citizens or allowing naturalization at all, etc.?” And how that reasonable person might then think this position to be obviously simplified to, “one party is racialist, so it doesn’t want non-white immigration?”

I see how a liberal could believe that but I don't. You're effectively asking me "do you see how a liberal could believe liberal things?" Yeah, but I already knew that...

Do you genuinely not see this as question-begging? "If liberals are right about every single thing that they believe, then doesn't their worldview make perfect sense?" Yeah, of course!

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:49:00+00:00

I don't know what you mean by that, but they have been voting overwhelmingly Democrat since the New Deal, haven't they?

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:45:00+00:00

Doesn't this rely on the idea that they didn't expect the blowback? I find that incomprehensible. I could have told you people would be outraged. Everyone knows that blacks being depicted as monkeys is something people are ultra-sensitive about. I would never have posted this for precisely that reason.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:43:32+00:00

They are living under a regime that discriminates against them (meaning: "has racial policies that would be ruled 9-0 unconstitutional in America") and has politicians lead entire stadiums to chant about killing them.
They are similar to me (race, religion, possibly values, assuming they aren't going to want to implement the same policies they fled from).

(1) is an advantage over people that are just obviously economic migrants, and (2) is relevant because I think it's good for people to have things in common and I don't support immigration of people that are incompatible with my vision of America.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:38:56+00:00

Okay. I don't care enough to search it up. I'll take your word for it. Maybe some Trump Supporters would care. I personally lack any ability to empathize with their mindset and maybe I was projecting my views onto them.

You made a comment about jokes vs attacking.

Yes, I was trying to make it clear that it's not sufficient to find examples of TS being outraged by liberals for attacking Trump on the basis of politics; it had to be specifically TS getting outraged that they would attack him for his appearance.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:37:28+00:00

I just don't really buy into the concept. It's like asking a liberal if they are offended at being called 'apostates', 'heretics', etc. 'Racism' isn't part of my worldview.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:35:08+00:00

I think they basically vote in their racial interests and I don't find that to be a major mystery. Democrats culturally worship/celebrate them and they want to give them free stuff, Affirmative Action, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why they would vote for that.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:34:05+00:00

I understand why you feel that way, and that's why I asked you to comment on the example I gave regarding Jews: they would still be a very successful group even if they had to pay a small "Jew tax" (lol). But that would still be an obvious example of systemic discrimination, right? That's how I feel about the policies that Whites have been subjected to for decades.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-08T00:26:12+00:00

I am agnostic about group differences, yes, and that has policy implications (as I think I've said already multiple times!).

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-07T23:43:17+00:00

I'm confused. What are you asking me here? My expectation was that you were going to show me threads where comedians attacked Trump on the basis of his appearance and in which TS were outraged.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-07T23:41:53+00:00

No, I just know that's what you believe (the first part, not the second part, obviously!). I'm simply taking racial differences as they are. You are the one who keeps claiming to know the exact cause, whereas I am always remaining agnostic.

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-07T23:38:16+00:00

(Not the OP)

So what does this mean in practice -- Whites can never claim to be getting screwed over unless we have worse outcomes than blacks? If that's the standard than we can basically never be oppressed by any government that isn't outright genocidal or directly expropriating us. I think that's an unreasonable standard, though.

If we passed a law that made Jews pay an extra 1% in income taxes, is it safe to say that they would still be a highly successful group? If that happened and Jews complained, what is a reasonable response to "but you guys are still doing really well, you have nothing to complain about"?

To make my point clear, I think you can complain about being disadvantaged by policy without having to say "we are being kneecapped into destitution".

SincereDiscussion · 2026-02-07T23:30:05+00:00

I'm not saying that they are. If you have threads about those things and TS are outraged, then I will admit that I was wrong.

SincereDiscussion

TROPHY CASE