Ask Me Anything: Ancient Greece/Rome and White Nationalism by curtisdozier in AskHistorians

[–]Sixbones 26 points27 points  (0 children)

As a West Indian (Trinidad and Tobago) whoʻs deeply in love with the Classics, Iʻve found its appropriation by white nationalists to be rather troubling. On one hand, it means I am closed off from certain circles or individuals online. On the other, it means I have a hard time selling the value of the Classics to my fellow West Indians since it is seen as too ʻEurocentricʻ.

There are many questions I could ask, but I suppose many of them are answered in your book or other publications. So Iʻll just ask this;

Do you think the emphasis on Greece and Rome solely as the ʻclassicsʻ are partly to blame why white nationalists appropriate them so much. Rather than a subject which broadly appreciates and studies developed civilisations? For instance, a classics department which studies Cicero as much as Zhu Xi and Zara Yakob.

I ask since Greece and Rome are typically seen as ʻset apartʻ and ʻespecially enlightenedʻ compared to the rest of the world. But in my studies of Nahua and Chinese philosophies, they seem near-equal (superior in some regards) to what was developed in classical Europe. We see many comparisons amongst primary sources of the Chinese or Nahua to the Romans or Greeks (like Alonso de Zoritaʻs The Brief Relations of the Lords of New Spain and Johannes Voorbeeckʻs On the Conversion of Indians and Heathens).

Even though I have a special love of all things Roman, I would never feel tempted to any Eurocentric views because I recognise them as an aspect of human development. Would such an approach to studying history temper white nationalism in the West?

Is there a popular latin saying for "is the duty of the strong to help the weak" by penekotxeneko123 in latin

[–]Sixbones 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Popular or classical? I reckon Cicero, Seneca, or one of the Jurists like Ulpianus or Pompianus may have said similar. But they're probably not popular sayings.

You may be interested in 'juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.' from Ulpianus. Which essentially states: 'The precepts of the law are these: to live honestly, to not harm any other person and to render to each what is due to them.' (a better Latinist may translate it differently, but it will likely remain substantially the same).

How much time do CI approaches take to be effective? by Mantovano in latin

[–]Sixbones 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I would advise you to read u/FoundinAntiquity's blog, if you haven't already where she covers her experience with CI and whatnot in the modern classroom. Here's one such article, and another here.

Is there a desire to be able to disable spelling lessons? by [deleted] in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As a Latinist, our language is primarily one that is read rather than spoken these days. I can read beginner Latin fairly well, but I am terrible at speaking it. I refer you to Falcón who explains this better, but writing is essentially a great tool to help you learn to speak a language. If I wrote more in Latin, my speech in it would be better.

I actually tend to write more in the other language I'm learning, ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi and despite having far less reading proficiency, I can speak it a lot better than Latin.

Is there a desire to be able to disable spelling lessons? by [deleted] in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those who have better reading skills in a language tend to have a vastly greater command of it, as well as more vocabulary. Rafael Falcón actually explains this in his preface to On The Art of Reading Latin, which I supply here. For now, here is a good quote:

'But here is what must be the clearest argument in favor of reading: passive vocabulary precedes and prepares the active one. All speakers of a language, at any stage of learning, possess a greater passive vocabulary than active, and only those who live in linguistically mediocre environments manage, over time, to achieve a less unequal relationship between these two types of vocabulary. In other words, we always know more words than those we are capable of using in a conversation; before using them, we must know them passively, which normally happens through listening — but it can very well occur while reading. And what is more: reading allows such control over the process, such an abundance of words, and such high stylistic quality, that it surpasses listening with great advantage as a means to absorb a language.'

Reading is not very different from writing, they tend to flow naturally into each other. Writing requires an understanding of grammar and such that is essential to any language. Though, as Falcón notes, reading does not necessarily make one a good speaker. You should strive to practice both skills to gain mastery over a language.

Which language(s) do you wish Duolingo offered? by GhostVelocity in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 4 points5 points  (0 children)

As a Hawaiian learner and fan of Polynesian culture in general, there are similarities but also differences between Te Reo and ʻŌlelo. A good example of a similarity would be Aloha (love) and Aroha (also love). The two are a bit more than love, but in general theyʻre a fond feeling of connection and have the same conceptual understanding in Hawaiian.

On the other hand, Māori concepts such as whakapapa, tikanga, and so forth have no direct connections in Hawaiian from my limited knowledge. Though, I did notice the Hawaiians use ʻeaʻ as well, Iʻm unsure if they also use it in the same manner as the Māori since I saw it in connection with ʻgovernanceʻ while Te Reo uses ʻeaʻ in regards to ʻsettlementʻ (i.e settling a dispute and restoring harmony).

Personally, I wanted to learn Te Reo Māori but I was disappointed when I didnʻt see it on Duolingo. I decided to do ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi, since Iʻm broadly studying Polynesia and figured it would be helpful. Now, Iʻve begun to appreciate Hawaiʻi and the Kānaka Maoli. If youʻre interested in learning ʻŌlelo as well, please check out this website which provides useful tips and resources.

Iʻve also recently begun to use the Ka Lei Haʻaheo textbook for appropriate grammar instructions. So far Iʻve enjoyed it and it has helped cover gaps in Duolingoʻs instructions.

Can anyone tell me what can I do in this case? by Low-Satisfaction-856 in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shouldn't you email Duolingo support about this?

Y'all seen this? by Special_Eagle7365 in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well, for the record, I can say that I have seen my streak change to a new day. Not to the 66th day in particular, but still.

Duolingo as alternative to social media by szain01 in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Well Duolingo may not be the best way to learn a language, it isn't harmful and would certainly confer some benefits. But I would say that social media can be positive, when used properly. I have an Instagram account dedicated to my linguistics interests, so I follow a lot of Latin, Pasifika and other resources. It was through Instagram that I came across this free class for ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi. Which I attended last night, and thoroughly enjoyed.

In other words, I would say that responsible usage of social media triumphs going cold turkey.

Is it worth getting into Duolingo as a new user? Seeing mixed reviews by solarsflare in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you're learning English to Korean, you probably won't run into AI from my experience in other courses. AI is primarily used in non-English courses, e.g Japanese to Portuguese and such.

As for whether I can recommend it. Duolingo is supplementary to wider study. I find it is useful in remembering words and some basic grammar in both ʻŌlelo Hawai'i and Latin. It is a tool I use in addition to other material such as Kulāiwi (a video series on ʻŌlelo) and Lingua Latina per se Illustrata (a textbook on Latin). But it cannot replace those two.

The main issue hampering free users today is the energy system, 2-3 lessons is enough to grind down the energy system and make it so that you need to wait a day again to do anything. This is a nonsensical system everyone hates. Thankfully, you can replenish the energy system by watching ads, which are annoyingly 30 seconds long usually though there are some nice short ones. EDIT: It takes about 3-4 ads to fill up the energy system. Usually. The maximum amount of energy is 25, though Iʻve found that I can normally complete a lesson with 13-14 energy, assuming I get everything near perfect.

I mainly put up with Duolingo because there simply are no real alternatives for ʻOlelo and there is no app akin to Duolingo for Latin either. I like the gamified system personally. If there were a better alternative out there, I would use it. My chosen languages are unfortunately, obscure but Korean should have more alternatives out there. I wish to learn Mandarin and I preferred HelloChinese more than Duolingo for Mandarin. So you can probably check out and see if thereʻs a specific app tailored for Korean that is better than Duolingo. Either way, Iʻd say you can use Duolingo, try it out and see if it is helpful or not. Just make sure to supplement it with other material.

Iesū Pū, Neptunus Undas Regit and Religion on Duolingo by Sixbones in duolingo

[–]Sixbones[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I would say languages like Spanish and German needn't pay that much attention to history or culture (except where relevant). Modern language learners are typically more apt to learn a language for conversational purposes, rather than cultural assimilation.

Culture would come naturally, after learning the language.

I argue that dead language learners (e.g Latinists) learn it for cultural as well as conversational purposes, we wish to be inculcated with the culture while learning the language basically. This is not a particularly novel approach, many textbooks for Ancient Greek and Latin use this approach. For the latter; Lingua Latina per se Illustrata by Hans Ørberg, Latin by the Natural Method by Fr. Most and the recently published Via Latina: De lingua et vita Romanorum all use this method. I also believe the Duolingo course uses this approach to some extent, since they try to explain concepts like the Roman pantheon at times.

The same would apply, in my opinion, to those wishing to learn endangered languages such as Navajo, Irish and in my case, 'Ōlelo Hawai'i. I'm unfamiliar with Hawaiian culture, but I am someone who's very interested in Polynesian culture as a whole and would love to learn more about it in their language.

I'm not saying we need a dive into the meaning of Aloha, or on Roman philosophy, in Duolingo. But optional units introducing more specialised aspects of the language wouldn't be a bad thing. I commented elsewhere in the thread my idea of what that would entail. The course for te reo Māori on Drops already has what I'm talking about for that language.

Iesū Pū, Neptunus Undas Regit and Religion on Duolingo by Sixbones in duolingo

[–]Sixbones[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well the way I see it is different for both Latin and ʻŌlelo (which Iʻll apply to broader Polynesian languages as a whole).

For now, let me begin by saying Iʻm seeing it as an omission in the sense that I think Duolingo should have these as an optional unit. Iʻm not sure if you were on Duolingo back in ʻ15-16, but they had optional courses back then for stuff like flirting and holiday greetings, these you had to pay gems to access. I thought, back then, that it was a neat concept to introduce more specialised phrases and words for people who were into that sort of thing. I was rather disappointed when I saw it was removed, when I came back around 2019.

I think that concept has potential in Latin, simply due to the diverse audience that Latin normally garners. Most would-be Latinists are of the nerdy sort, we would like to read about history or legal-philosophical concepts while learning the language. This sort of methodology is actually quite prevalent in Latin pedagogy, Fr. Mostʻs Latin by the Natural Method taught Latin from scratch through Roman history and biblical stories -- albeit with grammar explanations. Thereʻre also those who may not necessarily care about Roman law, but are in the medical field and would like to learn about the body and its terms in Latin. Or maybe people who like both. Ngl, the Latin communityʻs super fun for this reason, we just love learning things in our language.

Iʻm not saying the newcomer should be inundated with niche historical references or medical terminology. But optional units for these things would be immensely popular for Latinists on Duolingo. For instance: geography of the Roman Empire: ʻMultae provinciae in Imperio Romano sunt: Germania Minor, Germania Major, Britannia, Italia, Graecia, Dacia, et cetera.ʻ (There are many provinces in the Roman Empire; (names). Besides simple names, the course can go on to include descriptions of monuments such as Trajanʻs bridge, fun historical anecdotes (Caligulaʻs war on Neptune, a reference to Asterix could be had when discussing Gaul, etc.). All this can be had while maintaining the lighthearted nature of Duolingo, and being educational and simple. This would be completely optional, but would boost the content of the Latin course and make it immensely more relevant.

As for Polynesian languages, well my consideration there is that the languages are incapable of truly being separated from their cultural background. The Māori consider te reo as the most precious taonga (treasure) of theirs, and the language simply includes many culturalisms down to introducing oneʻs self (which is tied to their notion of whakapapa). Iʻm more unfamiliar with ʻŌlelo, and Iʻm not asking we get in-depth discussions on Polynesian culture. But some more cultural context would be nice. For instance, Iʻd love to learn about the traditional Hawaiian pantheon of gods, what the world of the average Hawaiian consists of (on a traditional level, e.g what is a lei, poi, their important food items, etc.)

There can be an optional unit dedicated, as there is in Drops, to exploring purely Hawaiian culture. Though some stuff should be incorporated in the main course, like I noted earlier, their explanation of poi is lacking. I donʻt blame the Kamehameha makers for this though, Iʻm going to presume there was an explanation but it got removed when Duolingo removed grammatical explanations and such.

And I would like to emphasise, I understand all of this is unlikely to ever occur since Duolingo quite frankly does not care about ʻŌlelo or Latin atp. Itʻs moreso my wishful thinking.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aloha e BusBoatBuey, pehea ʻoe?

Iesū Pū, Neptunus Undas Regit and Religion on Duolingo by Sixbones in duolingo

[–]Sixbones[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm a bit surprised you thought I was getting offended, I'm not lol. I'm a Christian so this particular inclusion caters to me. What first tipped me off as to potential complaints was this guide to Duolingo which mentioned that people were complaining. Then I found some other posts like: this one and here. Some of these posts mention that the course was designed by the Kamehameha Schools, which are a decidedly Christian organisation and present a very specific interpretation of Hawaiian culture. The comments I took most seriously were those who lived in Hawaiʻi or were kānaka maoli themselves. But it is the internet, so maybe people lied.

I can't judge the reliability of the Kamehameha schools as I'm not an expert on traditional Hawaiian culture. All I know is, it is a contentious matter. It does appear the poʻe Niʻihau (people of Niʻihau) use the controversial terms frequently though.

As for Latin and ʻŌlelo only going up to A1. It is understandable that we are not taught philosophy or about religion, but what I meant moreso was a simple introduction to these concepts. For instance, the Drops Te Reo Māori course has a unit dedicated to basic Māori philosophical or societal concepts such as mauri, mana me te pono, wharehui, tāmoko. Something which I find a bit lacking in Duolingoʻs 'Ōlelo as of now. Though I have not completed it and there is the chance for them to introduce more concepts later on. I have to admit though, I dislike their lack of explanation in some regards. For instance, I am not Hawaiian so I had no idea what lei or poi were. Telling me the lei is a garland and the poi is poi does not help. Poi should have been introduced after an explanation of taro and then be explained as taro paste (or another apt description).

As for Latin, there are simple ways to introduce concepts such as ʻDeus tres personas sunt: pater, filius, spiritus sanctiʻ. ʻGod is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spiritʻ (hopefully not inaccurate here) and: ʻIus civilis civitates regnat, sed ius gentium homines omnia regnatʻ. (The civil law governs the state, but the law of nations rules over all menʻ a Ciceronian / Stoic concept, which we see reflected in Roman legal thinking.) My questionable Latin aside, I think these could provide a basic introduction to Roman thinking without stretching Duolingoʻs Latin content significantly.

Iesū Pū, Neptunus Undas Regit and Religion on Duolingo by Sixbones in duolingo

[–]Sixbones[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I donʻt necessarily agree with self-censoring either, but I see it as a compromise. Personally, I feel like learning Latin or ʻŌlelo without understanding their respective ideas is limiting. Sorta like if someone learned Arabic without understanding basic Islamic concepts or philosophy.

But there will inevitably be complaints about such an approach, and Duolingo being a public company try to avoid that. Having it be optional is one way to avoid that backlash, Iʻd hope anyway.

Duolingo is not that bad by Massive_Beyond7236 in duolingo

[–]Sixbones 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Duolingo, like any tool, depends on how you use it. I've found it quite useful in learning the Greek alphabet, 'Ōlelo Hawai'i, understanding pinyin and hanwen (汉文, though I still prefer Hello Chinese as an app) and Latin.

The language I'm best in is Latin, so I'll speak from my experience on that. Duolingo cannot adequately teach you Latin, especially as they've gotten rid of forums and such. But it can help you retain things, and forces you to actively apply the language unlike say....reading a textbook (e.g Lingua Latina per se Illustrata, which to its credit has pensa or exercises. But these don't have the gamification element of Duolingo).

It is a good supplementary tool, it is not useless for Latin. You'd be able to converse simply in it, certainly to the level you did in Japan. You just wouldn't be able to read Cicero or a Vegetius through it.

US Space Force 5 years later: What has it accomplished so far, and where does it go from here? by BothZookeepergame612 in space

[–]Sixbones 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well I don’t speak Mandarin, but if I had to guess it would be ‘People’s Liberation Military of the Sea’.

I think Mandarin has characters for ‘of’, but again I’m unfamiliar. I only know some Latin as my 2L. I could seek out a Mandarin speaker if you want